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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2019 14:04:42 GMT
BS - More than 99.99999999% of the New Galaxy (i.e. Andromeda) has not, as yet, been revealed to us. If you can say that there's so much left in the Milky Way to be explored, the EXACT SAME thing holds true for Andromeda... and MORE. Unlike MET, which basically consumed the entire galaxy by dotting mission planets throughout all quadrants of the space, thereby limiting how much entirely new, totally undiscovered areas logically remains, they reveal a single cluster... which contained a more recent vision of how stellar objects interact within the real universe... but please go on and dismiss all of that out of hand because that's your version of "fair criticism." I say your version of fair criticism is fearmongering... the sky is falling... BS. You are completely missing the point, yet again and making it personal. It's not personal, it's collective. The problem isn't what might be out there, it's what is there and the gaming community didn't like it, or liked it significantly less compared to the OT and the argument that a sequel there might be good, is not compelling enough. You won't stop the trolls, the clickbaiters and the memes with might be good. Not after the Andromeda and Anthem memes. Heaven forbid should we also have Dragon Age 4 memes by then. You are severely underestimating the significance of the gaming community's reception of Bioware's future products and in the grand scheme of things, however much you like their current direction, you are one person and cannot compensate for the 6 million sales projections of EA.
... and some of us are playing Andormeda... and still enjoying even without DLCs. You can enjoy everything, I am not judging you, this is not personal.
OP: Resounding NO to signing your petition. In that we are in agreement. More fearmongering BS because you have no way of knowing which "sides" of the various inputs (fan base) they are currently listening to. No one here does because Bioware hasn't announce anything about the contents of a next Mass Effect game. I know which side they are not listening to and I know that the side they are listening to has failed to produce a viable product. This isn't fearmongering, these are the facts. You're consistently making it "universal." The reality is that are a small group of individuals here who, at the heart of it, have very different tastes and opinions about things.... and no, you absolutely have no idea who Bioware is listening to at the current moment because Bioware have given no indication as to the content or direction they are considering for the next ME game.. Furthermore, you think you have some idea who they tried listening to in the past and it wasn't you or the people who universally agreed with your opinions, so you assume that's the absolute reason things went a little south on every front. Furthermore, you consistently imply things went further south than they actually did. ME:A was an average game (by the numbers and by the people who keep posting here that they got at least some enjoyment out of it.) People have posted DIFFERING reasons for wanting to go back to the Milky Way. They did not all state that they felt the entire Andromeda Galaxy contributed 'nothing worthwhile" to the franchise. Misrepresenting the facts does NOT strengthen your arguments. You, sir, are not omniscient.
If I were to say something like all of your posts here have contributed "nothing worthwhile" to this site, you would certainly NOT feel "fairly criticized" or consider such statements to be "constructive criticism." Look in the mirror for a moment... what would be most helpful from their "fan base" is actual constructive criticism... measured and reasonable... not overstated and made universal by overuse of the "royal we."
Also, I quite certain we do not agree on our reasons for not signing the petition. The petition can only represent the group of people who actually sign it and should not purport to represent the multitudes of people who don't.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 14:35:40 GMT
You're consistently making it "universal." Because it is. AAA gaming isn't a niche market. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people around the globe. and no, you absolutely have no idea who Bioware is listening to at the current moment I can get a feel for who they hadn't been listening to, so far, though. Furthermore, you think you have some idea who they tried listening to in the past and it wasn't you or the people who universally agreed with your opinions, I am not asking anyone to universally agree with my opinions, but if you can't refute my points, if my predictions are slowly being realized and that natural order of things, as I've called it, is continued, then I can't expect the end result not to pan out accordingly. If my predictions are wrong, reality will disprove me eventually, but it hasn't this far and while I could be proven wrong in the penultimate minute, I see that chance being slim to none, from where I am standing and secondly, nobody needs that stress in their lives. Especially not the developers. so you assume that's the absolute reason things went a little south on every frontA little south on every front. To break that down, saying a little is an understatement. We went from 8-9/10 reviewed games to a 5/10. Anthem has, as of yet, still less players playing it than Fallout 76. So a little is demonstrably an understatement. And on every front requires a collective effort in fucking up. You are basically admitting that Bioware is currently suffering on every front in their ability to deliver a good product. Furthermore, you consistently imply things went further south than they actually did I'm implying things went exactly as south as can be easily demonstrated. ME:A was an average game (by the numbers and by the people who keep posting here that they got at least some enjoyment out of it.) The people here do not represent the general gaming community. Even so, Andrew Wilson just ditched all of us, in favour of 12 year olds. That you enjoyed Andromeda is ultimately good for you, but in the overarching scheme irrelevant. People have posted DIFFERING reasons for wanting to go back to the Milky Way Expressed very aggressively and passionately in this forum, which I've tried to the best of my ability to respect and tried to constructively give them the best possible development I can come up with to ensure they do get not just what they want, but what they deserve for the love and loyalty they've exhibited, but apparently my best efforts are unwelcome. They did not all state that they felt the entire Andromeda Galaxy contributing 'nothing worthwhile" to the franchise But that is what the average critic reviews do state and the user reviews are very, very less courteous than that. Misrepresenting the facts does NOT strengthen your arguments Again, I am citing the facts exactly as they are readily available to you and everyone else on this forum and have provided sources to back them up each and every time, even as they unfolded before us. You, sir, are not omniscient. No sir, I am not and I never claimed to be, but analysis, extrapolation, deduction and logical conclusion are thought processes unique to no one man. The repetition of a certain pattern, over multiple times, with each time providing a worse result is not something that can be solved with positive thoughts and passive good vibes, but would require course correction and affirmative action.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 27, 2019 16:22:10 GMT
As long as I'm in nitpick mode: Oh, I forgot the crucial plot related patch that turned Jaal gay. That really fixed my qualms with Andromeda and definitely didn't compromise Bioware's artistic integrity. A lot of people, salty people, became even saltier after Andromeda ... which died for Anthem. And here we are now. The patch turned Jaal bi, not gay. "Queer" would also be acceptable in some communities, but I don't know what this forum's standards are in that matter. (Any mods reading this? Alternatively, I suppose we could PM witchcocktor.) As for whether that change was worth doing, it's hard to tell the ROI. Depends on how hard it was to do, although it obviously had a very high payoff for the small subset of fans who wanted the content. I'd guess it to be highly unlikely that a similar amount of work could have produced that much payoff elsewhere. OTOH, Bio tends to underestimate the fragility of social conservatives who feel threatened by this sort of thing, so there are costs they likely ignored.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2019 16:29:43 GMT
You're consistently making it "universal." Because it is. AAA gaming isn't a niche market. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people around the globe. and no, you absolutely have no idea who Bioware is listening to at the current moment I can get a feel for who they hadn't been listening to, so far, though. Furthermore, you think you have some idea who they tried listening to in the past and it wasn't you or the people who universally agreed with your opinions, I am not asking anyone to universally agree with my opinions, but if you can't refute my points, if my predictions are slowly being realized and that natural order of things, as I've called it, is continued, then I can't expect the end result not to pan out accordingly. If my predictions are wrong, reality will disprove me eventually, but it hasn't this far and while I could be proven wrong in the penultimate minute, I see that chance being slim to none, from where I am standing and secondly, nobody needs that stress in their lives. Especially not the developers. so you assume that's the absolute reason things went a little south on every frontA little south on every front. To break that down, saying a little is an understatement. We went from 8-9/10 reviewed games to a 5/10. Anthem has, as of yet, still less players playing it than Fallout 76. So a little is demonstrably an understatement. And on every front requires a collective effort in fucking up. You are basically admitting that Bioware is currently suffering on every front in their ability to deliver a good product. Furthermore, you consistently imply things went further south than they actually did I'm implying things went exactly as south as can be easily demonstrated. ME:A was an average game (by the numbers and by the people who keep posting here that they got at least some enjoyment out of it.) The people here do not represent the general gaming community. Even so, Andrew Wilson just ditched all of us, in favour of 12 year olds. That you enjoyed Andromeda is ultimately good for you, but in the overarching scheme irrelevant. People have posted DIFFERING reasons for wanting to go back to the Milky Way Expressed very aggressively and passionately in this forum, which I've tried to the best of my ability to respect and tried to constructively give them the best possible development I can come up with to ensure they do get not just what they want, but what they deserve for the love and loyalty they've exhibited, but apparently my best efforts are unwelcome. They did not all state that they felt the entire Andromeda Galaxy contributing 'nothing worthwhile" to the franchise But that is what the average critic reviews do state and the user reviews are very, very less courteous than that. Misrepresenting the facts does NOT strengthen your arguments Again, I am citing the facts exactly as they are readily available to you and everyone else on this forum and have provided sources to back them up each and every time, even as they unfolded before us. You, sir, are not omniscient. No sir, I am not and I never claimed to be, but analysis, extrapolation, deduction and logical conclusion are thought processes unique to no one man. The repetition of a certain pattern, over multiple times, with each time providing a worse result is not something that can be solved with positive thoughts and passive good vibes, but would require course correction and affirmative action. No sir, you continually exaggerate and "universalize" statements made by some fans; and in so doing, ignore countering statements made by other fans who disagreed with the statements made by the fans you purport to cite. As I said, there were a number of fans who expressed a number of DIFFERENT reasons for wanting to return to the Milky Way. Not all fans had the feeling that the "ENTIRE NEW GALAXY" contributed "nothing worthwhile" to the franchise. You cannot logically defend the statement you made as not being a misrepresentation of the facts.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 16:35:44 GMT
As long as I'm in nitpick mode: Oh, I forgot the crucial plot related patch that turned Jaal gay. That really fixed my qualms with Andromeda and definitely didn't compromise Bioware's artistic integrity. A lot of people, salty people, became even saltier after Andromeda ... which died for Anthem. And here we are now. The patch turned Jaal bi, not gay. "Queer" would also be acceptable in some communities, but I don't know what this forum's standards are in that matter. (Any mods reading this? Alternatively, I suppose we could PM witchcocktor.) As for whether that change was worth doing, it's hard to tell the ROI. Depends on how hard it was to do, although it obviously had a very high payoff for the small subset of fans who wanted the content. I'd guess it to be highly unlikely that a similar amount of work could have produced that much payoff elsewhere. OTOH, Bio tends to underestimate the fragility of social conservatives who feel threatened by this sort of thing, so there are costs they likely ignored. LGBTQ issues aside, I heard a lot of people being very dissatisfied with this move, not because Jaal being bi offended them, but rather because they saw it as a clear violation of Bioware's artistic integrity and that they would never support Bioware again because of that. I'm guessing the amount was pretty much equal.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 27, 2019 16:42:01 GMT
*shrugs* My impression was that Bio's stance was more like "hey, why isn't Jaal bi? Does anyone remember a reason?" I saw people make the artistic integrity argument, but it's such a stupid overreaction that I suspected it was often cover for the real issue.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 16:43:58 GMT
ignore countering statements No, is not an compelling argument. You can't say no to something and then suddenly have reality bend to your whim. If all you're going to say is no, it's not going to work. there were a number of fans who expressed a number of DIFFERENT reasons for wanting to return to the Milky Way So the best reason not to go back to the Milky Way is that there are too many reasons to go back to the Milky Way? Is that is? Not all fans had the feeling that the "ENTIRE NEW GALAXY" contributed "nothing worthwhile" to the franchise Which are an insignificant number of the fanbase, as exhibited by the utter shelving of Andromeda. They are an unsustainable source of revenue for this level of budget tied to the game's development. Maybe Kickstarter with Pillars of Eternity tier of funding is more along their price point. You cannot logicallly defend the statement you made as not being a misrepresentation of the facts. I did. It wasn't even difficult.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 16:44:38 GMT
*shrugs* My impression was that Bio's stance was more like "hey, why isn't Jaal bi? Does anyone remember a reason?" I saw people make the artistic integrity argument, but it's such a stupid overreaction that I suspected it was often cover for the real issue. Russian bots, then. Gotcha.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 27, 2019 23:20:31 GMT
More likely just garden-variety idiots. I tend to ascribe bad motives to people posting stupid stuff because I'm an optimistic guy at heart. Bad values can change, but stupidity is forever.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 27, 2019 23:30:52 GMT
More likely just garden-variety idiots. I tend to ascribe bad motives to people posting stupid stuff because I'm an optimistic guy at heart. Bad values can change, but stupidity is forever. I know of a guy that knows a guy that we send stupid people to for testing for how stupid....
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Post by Arcian on Jul 28, 2019 5:09:35 GMT
More likely just garden-variety idiots. I tend to ascribe bad motives to people posting stupid stuff because I'm an optimistic guy at heart. Bad values can change, but stupidity is forever. This is a quitter's attitude.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2019 17:18:12 GMT
As long as I'm in nitpick mode: Oh, I forgot the crucial plot related patch that turned Jaal gay. That really fixed my qualms with Andromeda and definitely didn't compromise Bioware's artistic integrity. A lot of people, salty people, became even saltier after Andromeda ... which died for Anthem. And here we are now. The patch turned Jaal bi, not gay. "Queer" would also be acceptable in some communities, but I don't know what this forum's standards are in that matter. (Any mods reading this? Alternatively, I suppose we could PM witchcocktor.) As for whether that change was worth doing, it's hard to tell the ROI. Depends on how hard it was to do, although it obviously had a very high payoff for the small subset of fans who wanted the content. I'd guess it to be highly unlikely that a similar amount of work could have produced that much payoff elsewhere. OTOH, Bio tends to underestimate the fragility of social conservatives who feel threatened by this sort of thing, so there are costs they likely ignored. Funny which aspects of a Bioware will shroud themselves in "artistic integrity" and HOW DARE YOU ASK US TO CHANGE SOMETHING!!! And which aspects they be all lke:
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Post by 10k on Jul 28, 2019 17:23:11 GMT
Personally, I don't want a ME5 or ME4 for that matter. Either a reboot or remake of the trilogy would be fine by me. Hell or nothing at all. Just the thought of a new ME does not excite me like it use to. The series is done, let it die.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 28, 2019 18:42:50 GMT
I'd go further. If more ME doesn't work, why do anything at all?
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 28, 2019 18:55:54 GMT
As long as I'm in nitpick mode: The patch turned Jaal bi, not gay. "Queer" would also be acceptable in some communities, but I don't know what this forum's standards are in that matter. (Any mods reading this? Alternatively, I suppose we could PM witchcocktor.) As for whether that change was worth doing, it's hard to tell the ROI. Depends on how hard it was to do, although it obviously had a very high payoff for the small subset of fans who wanted the content. I'd guess it to be highly unlikely that a similar amount of work could have produced that much payoff elsewhere. OTOH, Bio tends to underestimate the fragility of social conservatives who feel threatened by this sort of thing, so there are costs they likely ignored. Funny which aspects of a Bioware will shroud themselves in "artistic integrity" and HOW DARE YOU ASK US TO CHANGE SOMETHING!!! And which aspects they be all lke: Remember, the argument was that ME, as released, violated Bio,'s own expressed design principles. Bio has committed to giving PCs of all genders and orientations romance options of equal quality, though not equal in number. Since it seems that a majority of players believe non-squadmate romances to be inferior to squadmate romances -- I don't agree, but that's irrelevant -- artistic integrity doesn't come into it. This was simply a mistake. I suppose they could have gone with Liam instead, but banging aliens is a core part of ME's brand identity.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2019 19:29:59 GMT
Funny which aspects of a Bioware will shroud themselves in "artistic integrity" and HOW DARE YOU ASK US TO CHANGE SOMETHING!!! And which aspects they be all lke: Remember, the argument was that ME, as released, violated Bio,'s own expressed design principles. Bio has committed to giving PCs of all genders and orientations romance options of equal quality, though not equal in number. Since it seems that a majority of players believe non-squadmate romances to be inferior to squadmate romances -- I don't agree, but that's irrelevant -- artistic integrity doesn't come into it. This was simply a mistake. You may have an argument with the Dragon Age franchise there, but that has never been the case with Mass Effect. If that's the case, no wonder the IP is failing so hard if that's their priority...
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Post by Polka Dot on Jul 28, 2019 19:55:33 GMT
Funny which aspects of a Bioware will shroud themselves in "artistic integrity" and HOW DARE YOU ASK US TO CHANGE SOMETHING!!! And which aspects they be all lke: Remember, the argument was that ME, as released, violated Bio,'s own expressed design principles. Bio has committed to giving PCs of all genders and orientations romance options of equal quality, though not equal in number. Since it seems that a majority of players believe non-squadmate romances to be inferior to squadmate romances -- I don't agree, but that's irrelevant -- artistic integrity doesn't come into it. This was simply a mistake. I suppose they could have gone with Liam instead, but banging aliens is a core part of ME's brand identity. In this particular case, quantity did play a part. This is due to the design of the Matchmaker trophy/achievement, which requires completing romances with 3 different LIs. It wasn't possible for those who play m/m romances exclusively to complete it as issued, thus the addition of a 3rd m/m option.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 29, 2019 11:27:07 GMT
It wasn't possible for those who play m/m romances exclusively Why wouldn't you romance a woman? What are you? A misogynist?
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Post by traks on Jul 29, 2019 18:17:28 GMT
Why a petition? BioWare will produce a new Mass Effect once an idea and the necessary funds are green lit. Demanding something from them before they are ready doesn't make any sense. At least not if you want a quality product.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jul 29, 2019 20:34:06 GMT
It wasn't possible for those who play m/m romances exclusively Why wouldn't you romance a woman? What are you? A misogynist? I'm afraid you'll have to ask those who play m/m romances exclusively. I'm not among them. But if you really want to know, you could just read the old threads discussing the dearth of m/m LI options.
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Post by clips7 on Jul 30, 2019 5:41:37 GMT
Petitions are a joke, and the language seen in this particular petition is rather juvenile and childish....seems like the OP is making demands for this and demands for that. I don't have much confidence in Bioware after Andromeda...not a bad game, but the first Mass Effect game i ever fell asleep on...THAT is a problem. Bioware issues are going to continue if the next ME game feels like they are checking off a bucket list to keep everybody happy....that transgender character that got patched out in the very early release of Andromeda?...cringe-worthy writing,....just a "hey we have transgenders in our game moment"... . We've always had characters of sexual preferences/types in these games and the trilogy did not make these relationships or individuals feel forced or shallow cut out stereotypical frames....i look at Jack from ME2....the first time you see her, you can probably assume her sexual preference, but the game didn't force it...the relationships felt authentic and natural for the most part. Not saying the trilogy didn't have it's share of cringe moments, but the writing, the characters and the journey itself and even those who was upset about the endings in 3 still say that the journey in ME3 was great. Surely some got some enjoyment out of Andromeda, again it's not a bad game, just not a very good Mass Effect game and the sales numbers, EA cancelling future DLC proves it. Andromeda would have received mediocre scores even if it was patched to the point to where it is today. Bioware needs to up their game when it comes to the writing and narrative dept, because they stunk up the joint royally in Andromeda. I can't criticize Anthem too much since Bioware pretty much stated that Anthem wasn't going to be that type of game, but even the story in Anthem is lacking, even tho i thought the plot behind it could have been very interesting if Bioware gave the plot more time develop. No doubt if Bioware announced the next ME, i'd be a bit excited and skeptical at the same time....Andromeda didn't have to be dark like the trilogy, but the story and characters shouldn't have to be boring and un-inspired either....The next Dragon Age needs to knock it out of the park or i feel its a wrap for Bioware...as i really don't see Anthem making that 7-10 year longterm stretch....
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 30, 2019 11:17:17 GMT
Polka Dot I was merely jesting, I did not mean anything by it. The point, however, in a role playing game is more than just self gratification, although that is an extent, but the aspect of playing a role and distancing one's self from that character. It's a role, no less than James Bond or Lara Croft.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 1, 2019 12:46:06 GMT
I move forward not backwards, which is why people who scream "that MET was the greatest series ever" are fucking IDIOTS.
ME1 has horrible combat, graphics, the Mako, characters that were nothing more than glorified codex entries, the worst BioWare villain, and Mark Meer's performance was horrible, (Jennifer Hale was great though) it got by on an interesting sci-fi mash up universe and the idea that are choices matter.
ME2 lost most of the original team outside of cameos and gave us a ton of new characters and FORCED us to play more or less as a Cerberus agent even if we didn't want to, a better combat system but with so many weapons, and plot that barely held together.
ME3 had a weird run/walk animation for Shepard, auto dialogue, a massive plot contrivance with the Crucible, the choices from 1 and 2 either came off as jokes, or just didn't matter in the least, and a controversial endings.
It's no big secret that I LOVE MEA it did have it flaws but I still enjoy the fuck out of it, because it was the Mass Effect game that I needed not what that I wanted. It's characters are more complex and 3-Dimisnonal than any of from ME1, the Archon is a great pure evil bastard villain, and it's got a more interesting setting than any post-ending ME3 could have hoped to be, the story, characters, graphics, the environments the romances, and voice performances are all great and the combat/gameplay/puzzles and the Nomad is the best vehicle (or mount) BioWare has ever done. It's serious without being depressing, and fun without being stupid.
But because BioWare didn't give those useless morons a game that would've "fixed" ME3 and to be brutally honest even if they did do that it wouldn't fixed the endings because storytelling isn't time travel and the ONLY way to fix the endings to ME3 is too completely remake the entire trilogy and EA isn't too big on remasters in general, I doubt that they're going to remake ANY game that they own the rights too because they don't want too.
My standards are high and probably very different from yours I wager, so you can spare you're reply because I'm done debating the merits of MEA and BioWare to haters. If you want to change BioWare then go work for BioWare that is the only you will make the change that you want. Otherwise you're wasting your time and more importantly my time by pissing in the wind on an unofficial BioWare message board "hoping to make BioWare change".
Then why are you here?
Friends.
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 1, 2019 14:58:43 GMT
Nah, no thanks.
*drinks*
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alanc9
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 1, 2019 17:14:00 GMT
Remember, the argument was that ME, as released, violated Bio,'s own expressed design principles. Bio has committed to giving PCs of all genders and orientations romance options of equal quality, though not equal in number. Since it seems that a majority of players believe non-squadmate romances to be inferior to squadmate romances -- I don't agree, but that's irrelevant -- artistic integrity doesn't come into it. This was simply a mistake. You may have an argument with the Dragon Age franchise there, but that has never been the case with Mass Effect. Only because a couple of the ME games predate Bio adopting that design principle. I suppose you could try to make an argument that Bio shouldn't apply that principle to the ME series, but I can't envision what such an argument would look like be. Why shouldn't Bio do this? Edit: Well, actually, it would look like someone trying to cover up homophobia or something unsavory like that. Given the way Bio feels about such things, I imagine it would be dismissed out of hand anyway.
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