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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 10, 2019 0:15:42 GMT
And yet, if someone says anything that isn't prise about BioWare and it's games, the insults start flying from them. Have you seen this place lately? I took a hiatus because I kept getting bagged on, threatened and insulted for liking games. It's strange how perspective differ huh Yeah I must admit I've been tempted t otake a hiatus myself of late and just focus on enjoying the games rather than worrying about what others think of them.
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Post by griffith82 on Nov 10, 2019 1:46:59 GMT
I can't agree. ME1 is subpar to the rest Andromeda included. Andromeda is what ME1 should have been imho. Did you watch Terminator: Dark Fate? Just watched it it was very good imo.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 10:36:24 GMT
Or maybe they're just more people who liked Andromeda than you think. That is a hollow and irrelevant statement. If out of the 3 million copies this game sold to people, I expected 90% to dislike it, but it was in fact only 80%, that means six hundred thousand people enjoyed it. If that's the amount of people to return for the sequel, that's Planescape: Torment numbers. The point is that enough people were already alienated by Mass Effect 3 and Andromeda, by receiving a worse reception than any OT game so far and a worse aftermath than any other Mass Effect game so far, alienated even more, to effectively put the franchise on ice. No other game in the franchise managed to do that. So demonstrably, whether it is more than I think, it is clearly less than it needs.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 10:59:12 GMT
You dont k how that it's all assumption based on your hatred of Andromeda. Imho it's the way forward and I'm not alone. I'm not saying it won't be Andromeda, but the Andromeda you may return to, may not be the Andromeda you know. See my post here for what a return to Andromeda will entail.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 11:02:34 GMT
Just watched it it was very good imo. Glad you had fun. It also put the franchise on ice. Something that even Genisys didn't manage to do.
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Post by saandrig on Nov 13, 2019 11:38:20 GMT
Just watched it it was very good imo. Glad you had fun. It also put the franchise on ice. Something that even Genisys didn't manage to do. I was surprised the franchise wasn't put on hold after each of the T2 sequels. I found Genisys ok in some aspects (really enjoyed the 1984 bits), but hardly "start of a trilogy" material. Dark Fate was easily the best sequel after T2, but the franchise definitely needed a much more quality film to turn things around. If all sequels were of Dark Fate's quality, maybe things would have been slightly better.
John Connor's fate and that scene as a whole in Dark Fate was definitely mishandled. Too bad Mackenzie Davies got the Kyle Reese treatment, she was a really good addition most of the time.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 13, 2019 12:12:36 GMT
Let it go, people... Let's not make people feel bad for liking MEA over and over. It hurt Bioware's reputation, that is fact, but those who still enjoyed the game are what's left of the fanbase. So their opinion matters for Bioware's future. The opnion of those who like Anthem as well.
Bioware will build on what people LIKED about their games. If these things do not match my own opinion, the only conclusion to be drawn from that is that I'm not the target audience anymore and should move on.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 12:35:21 GMT
saandrigIt's a real shame for Mackenzie. She puts a lot of effort and energy in her parts, no matter how big or small and she worked really hard to look like a competent, strong fighter in Dark Fate. I've heard nothing but praise for her part. Her dying can be easily rectified through ripple effect. I would love to see a Terminator prequel that examines the events that spur off the time travel bits. I mean, for the existence of John Connor, in the first place, it requires a Kyle Reese to be sent in the past to find Sarah. Before that event, who sent Kyle Reese back in time and why? Is there a future where John Connor isn't born and Skynet won the war, but Kyle Reese went back, somehow, to prevent it and just stumbled on to Sarah Connor? Is John born regardless by a different father, but sending Kyle Reese back in time changes the timeline? Does a much inferior future Skynet send tech back in time to boost its development and take advantage of the sociopolitical and technological state of the time to trigger judgment day? But back to Dark Fate, the "it's not your womb that matters" completely undermines Sarah's importance in the overall story. Like, it doesn't matter that you survived a Terminator attack, it doesn't matter that you killed one, it doesn't matter that you prepared someone from a baby, both mentally and physically, to take on the greatest threat humanity's ever known, no, you're just a womb. Do you think that John woke up one day, after Judgment Day, walked up to Skynet and punched it so hard, the 0s and 1s in his hard drive got rearranged? That's not how it works. Maybe being John Connor is of vital importance, but creating a John Connor requires so much work, it's virtually impossible to replicate. The fact that Sarah accomplishes it, is a fluke, a one in a trillion case. It's like creating a Shepard that defeats the Reapers, after the Reapers took the Citadel. It's an improbability, he shouldn't exist. Sarah herself is no less important than John himself. TSCC does a very good job of portraying it and it is a real shame the show ended so abruptly in season 2. Being Sarah Connor is tough shit.
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sjsharp2010
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 13, 2019 13:27:21 GMT
Let it go, people... Let's not make people feel bad for liking MEA over and over. It hurt Bioware's reputation, that is fact, but those who still enjoyed the game are what's left of the fanbase. So their opinion matters for Bioware's future. The opnion of those who like Anthem as well. Bioware will build on what people LIKED about their games. If these things do not match my own opinion, the only conclusion to be drawn from that is that I'm not the target audience anymore and should move on. Yeah and hopefully they will learn from the mistakes made on these games and build on what was good about them. At le3ast that's all we can hope for I liked MEA but I d oacknowledge there were mistakes made there one of them being it probably could have used another 6 months in the oven t oeliminate the bugs that were there at launch but other than that based on the condition it's in now I like it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 13:39:13 GMT
Let it go, people... Let's not make people feel bad for liking MEA over and over. It hurt Bioware's reputation, that is fact, but those who still enjoyed the game are what's left of the fanbase. So their opinion matters for Bioware's future. The opnion of those who like Anthem as well. Bioware will build on what people LIKED about their games. If these things do not match my own opinion, the only conclusion to be drawn from that is that I'm not the target audience anymore and should move on. That's not how it works. Doubling down on a failed direction will not regrow to a new fanbase. If the fanbase for the same product exists from different group of people, then it wasn't the product itself that kept them from buying it. Doubling down on a failed direction, will further collapse the property. I'm not saying you shouldn't like what you like, I'm not saying you should feel bad for liking what you like. But what you like may be bad. Like the Star Wars Christmas Special. Or The Room. But you can't make a Christmas Special 2 or The Room 2, out of them. Well, definitely no Room 2 since Johnny dies in the end. On the other hand, if you want to build on what people LIKED, well, they liked the OT. They liked Liara who will return again in some way and Garrus and Tali and Wrex etc. They demonstrably rejected Andromeda. Which effectively put the franchise on ice. I've already made it clear what that means. The things that worked for Andromeda were the Nomad, the gunplay and ... Vetra? The latter for reasons entirely unrelated to her personality and usefulness in the battlefield. Which is a bad reason to like a character. She's fetish fuel. Literally, that's all she is.
Andromeda is the Kamala Khan of the ME universe. People go out of their way to say how good and popular she is. She sells 10-14k copies per month. The people who like her, really like her, but that's life support numbers. She doesn't do the 100k copies the X-Men make. Or the 100k copies Batman makes. Or the 100k copies Spiderman makes. In the gaming industry, Kamala Khan isn't AAA title material. More like AA, if even that. You won't make CoD sales numbers with Andromeda. You won't make Battlefield numbers with Andromeda. You don't even make OT numbers with Andromeda, in a medium that has since grown to be the biggest entertainment industry on the planet. That's a failure. Not a failure on the fans part, but on Bioware's part. It was their job to make a game that people wanted and its not. Either the franchise is not viable in its current iteration and has no way forward or fans simply moved on with ME3, which means ending it there was a bad move for both the franchise and the studio.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 13:44:01 GMT
Let it go, people... Let's not make people feel bad for liking MEA over and over. It hurt Bioware's reputation, that is fact, but those who still enjoyed the game are what's left of the fanbase. So their opinion matters for Bioware's future. The opnion of those who like Anthem as well. Bioware will build on what people LIKED about their games. If these things do not match my own opinion, the only conclusion to be drawn from that is that I'm not the target audience anymore and should move on. Yeah and hopefully they will learn from the mistakes made on these games and build on what was good about them. At le3ast that's all we can hope for I liked MEA but I d oacknowledge there were mistakes made there one of them being it probably could have used another 6 months in the oven t oeliminate the bugs that were there at launch but other than that based on the condition it's in now I like it. It was criticized for a whole lot more than just the bugs. Mark Darrah in the Eurogamer interview said that the game was deeply flawed. Deeply flawed means the game required a major rework to make it a viable product. Something that wouldn't be ready in 6 months. It would require a year at the very least to be worthwhile and another year to remove the cringe from the dialogues.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 13, 2019 14:01:10 GMT
That's not how it works. Doubling down on a failed direction will not regrow to a new fanbase. If the fanbase for the same product exists from different group of people, then it wasn't the product itself that kept them from buying it. Doubling down on a failed direction, will further collapse the property. They wouldn't be doubling down on a failed direction though? Because if people liked the combat and not the empty maps, then surely they should go with the combat that people liked and refine it, no?
Going with what the people liked who will continue to buy your products in the right thing to do. Of course if an element is highly divisive and then Bioware needs to decide whether or not it makes sense to try win back a bunch of angry fans or stick with those who liked it. Imo trying to win back people who've been angry since 2012 is a bad idea. ESPECIALLY because a lot of these older gamers hate the social live service model that EA is so fond of. So EA's target audience is NOT the people who loved the trilogy anymore.
Clearly Bioware was aiming for a younger generation who identified with the insecurities of the crew. It was kind of a coming of age story. I've heard many MEA fans say they like Ryder better than Shepard exactly because the twins felt more flawed and human than superhero Shepard. And those fans like their self-insert fantasies. That is not a direction I care for but fact is self-insert (romantic) fantasies are becoming more and more popular.
So the die-hard romance group of their fanbase is still there because there are no good alternatives. Bioware now faces the difficult task to build a new younger fanbase that embraces GaaS and MTX. Things have changed dramatically in the AAA landscape and the Bioware of old is GONE. OK? Yes, MEA failed and put Mass Effect on ice. But a lot of it has to do with development hell. Plenty of people liked MEA better after patches. I didn't. But that's OK. People had specific expectations of a new title in the franchise. And the tone was so radically different that many older fans hated it. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't make a successful MEA2 when not a rushed mess. NOT for those who liked the tone of the trilogy but for those who liked Ryder.
You seem to think that losing the old fanbase means no new fans will replace them. I bet people said the same thing when ME1 was released. A fanbase is always in flux. The question isn't about appeasing angry trilogy fans but finding an appealing formula for the current generation of gamers who come to Bioware without the baggage of disappointment dating back 8 fucking years.
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Post by saandrig on Nov 13, 2019 14:33:18 GMT
But back to Dark Fate, the "it's not your womb that matters" completely undermines Sarah's importance in the overall story. Like, it doesn't matter that you survived a Terminator attack, it doesn't matter that you killed one, it doesn't matter that you prepared someone from a baby, both mentally and physically, to take on the greatest threat humanity's ever known, no, you're just a womb. Do you think that John woke up one day, after Judgment Day, walked up to Skynet and punched it so hard, the 0s and 1s in his hard drive got rearranged? That's not how it works. Maybe being John Connor is of vital importance, but creating a John Connor requires so much work, it's virtually impossible to replicate. The fact that Sarah accomplishes it, is a fluke, a one in a trillion case. It's like creating a Shepard that defeats the Reapers, after the Reapers took the Citadel. It's an improbability, he shouldn't exist. Sarah herself is no less important than John himself. TSCC does a very good job of portraying it and it is a real shame the show ended so abruptly in season 2. Being Sarah Connor is tough shit. I don't think that quote undermines Sarah at all. In fact it was pretty much in line with Grace's view of the situation. To her Sarah is nobody and especially not a hero or the mother of a hero she should worship (but we, the audience, have a different view, of course). Sarah's importance doesn't exist in the new timeline and in the history records, for all intents and purposes, she is just another crazy terrorist (which, ironically, is what Sarah would prefer to the alternative). Sarah herself is still quite the force to be reckoned with. Grace doesn't know (or care even after being told) about Sarah's hardships. All Grace cares about is the mission and Sarah is just a minor element in all of it.
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sjsharp2010
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 13, 2019 15:21:00 GMT
That's not how it works. Doubling down on a failed direction will not regrow to a new fanbase. If the fanbase for the same product exists from different group of people, then it wasn't the product itself that kept them from buying it. Doubling down on a failed direction, will further collapse the property. They wouldn't be doubling down on a failed direction though? Because if people liked the combat and not the empty maps, then surely they should go with the combat that people liked and refine it, no?
Going with what the people liked who will continue to buy your products in the right thing to do. Of course if an element is highly divisive and then Bioware needs to decide whether or not it makes sense to try win back a bunch of angry fans or stick with those who liked it. Imo trying to win back people who've been angry since 2012 is a bad idea. ESPECIALLY because a lot of these older gamers hate the social live service model that EA is so fond of. So EA's target audience is NOT the people who loved the trilogy anymore.
Clearly Bioware was aiming for a younger generation who identified with the insecurities of the crew. It was kind of a coming of age story. I've heard many MEA fans say they like Ryder better than Shepard exactly because the twins felt more flawed and human than superhero Shepard. And those fans like their self-insert fantasies. That is not a direction I care for but fact is self-insert (romantic) fantasies are becoming more and more popular.
So the die-hard romance group of their fanbase is still there because there are no good alternatives. Bioware now faces the difficult task to build a new younger fanbase that embraces GaaS and MTX. Things have changed dramatically in the AAA landscape and the Bioware of old is GONE. OK? Yes, MEA failed and put Mass Effect on ice. But a lot of it has to do with development hell. Plenty of people liked MEA better after patches. I didn't. But that's OK. People had specific expectations of a new title in the franchise. And the tone was so radically different that many older fans hated it. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't make a successful MEA2 when not a rushed mess. NOT for those who liked the tone of the trilogy but for those who liked Ryder.
You seem to think that losing the old fanbase means no new fans will replace them. I bet people said the same thing when ME1 was released. A fanbase is always in flux. The question isn't about appeasing angry trilogy fans but finding an appealing formula for the current generation of gamers who come to Bioware without the baggage of disappointment dating back 8 fucking years.
Exactly I kind of think of MEA as kind of Mass Effect the Next Generation. When Star Trek TNG came out people were worried even the actors that the ycouldn't do a Star Trek without Kirk Spock and McCoy but not only did they do it it became a very good and well supported series in the end. It too didn't exactly have the best first season or so either but in the end it garnished enough popularity to work. I believe that if and when the ydecide to do an MEA2 so long as it's not in a bad state at launch like MEA was it can and will be received better. Ultimately though that's up to Bioware to decide if that's what they want. I want them to do an MEA2 but whetther they do and do it up to my expectations is up to them.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Nov 13, 2019 15:33:14 GMT
They wouldn't be doubling down on a failed direction though? Because if people liked the combat and not the empty maps, then surely they should go with the combat that people liked and refine it, no?
Going with what the people liked who will continue to buy your products in the right thing to do. Of course if an element is highly divisive and then Bioware needs to decide whether or not it makes sense to try win back a bunch of angry fans or stick with those who liked it. Imo trying to win back people who've been angry since 2012 is a bad idea. ESPECIALLY because a lot of these older gamers hate the social live service model that EA is so fond of. So EA's target audience is NOT the people who loved the trilogy anymore.
Clearly Bioware was aiming for a younger generation who identified with the insecurities of the crew. It was kind of a coming of age story. I've heard many MEA fans say they like Ryder better than Shepard exactly because the twins felt more flawed and human than superhero Shepard. And those fans like their self-insert fantasies. That is not a direction I care for but fact is self-insert (romantic) fantasies are becoming more and more popular.
So the die-hard romance group of their fanbase is still there because there are no good alternatives. Bioware now faces the difficult task to build a new younger fanbase that embraces GaaS and MTX. Things have changed dramatically in the AAA landscape and the Bioware of old is GONE. OK? Yes, MEA failed and put Mass Effect on ice. But a lot of it has to do with development hell. Plenty of people liked MEA better after patches. I didn't. But that's OK. People had specific expectations of a new title in the franchise. And the tone was so radically different that many older fans hated it. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't make a successful MEA2 when not a rushed mess. NOT for those who liked the tone of the trilogy but for those who liked Ryder.
You seem to think that losing the old fanbase means no new fans will replace them. I bet people said the same thing when ME1 was released. A fanbase is always in flux. The question isn't about appeasing angry trilogy fans but finding an appealing formula for the current generation of gamers who come to Bioware without the baggage of disappointment dating back 8 fucking years.
Exactly I kind of think of MEA as kind of Mass Effect the Next Generation. When Star Trek TNG came out people were worried even the actors that the ycouldn't do a Star Trek without Kirk Spock and McCoy but not only did they do it it became a very good and well supported series in the end. It too didn't exactly have the best first season or so either but in the end it garnished enough popularity to work. I believe that if and when the ydecide to do an MEA2 so long as it's not in a bad state at launch like MEA was it can and will be received better. Ultimately though that's up to Bioware to decide if that's what they want. I want them to do an MEA2 but whetther they do and do it up to my expectations is up to them. Ryder's no Picard. Though SAM could be Wesley Crusher...
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 13, 2019 15:40:58 GMT
Exactly I kind of think of MEA as kind of Mass Effect the Next Generation. When Star Trek TNG came out people were worried even the actors that the ycouldn't do a Star Trek without Kirk Spock and McCoy but not only did they do it it became a very good and well supported series in the end. It too didn't exactly have the best first season or so either but in the end it garnished enough popularity to work. I believe that if and when the ydecide to do an MEA2 so long as it's not in a bad state at launch like MEA was it can and will be received better. Ultimately though that's up to Bioware to decide if that's what they want. I want them to do an MEA2 but whetther they do and do it up to my expectations is up to them. Ryder's no Picard. Though SAM could be Wesley Crusher... Per haps not but the idea is the same.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 13, 2019 16:26:44 GMT
Or maybe they're just more people who liked Andromeda than you think. That is a hollow and irrelevant statement. If out of the 3 million copies this game sold to people, I expected 90% to dislike it, but it was in fact only 80%, that means six hundred thousand people enjoyed it. If that's the amount of people to return for the sequel, that's Planescape: Torment numbers. The point is that enough people were already alienated by Mass Effect 3 and Andromeda, by receiving a worse reception than any OT game so far and a worse aftermath than any other Mass Effect game so far, alienated even more, to effectively put the franchise on ice. No other game in the franchise managed to do that. So demonstrably, whether it is more than I think, it is clearly less than it needs. That's Planescape: Torment numbers if the game doesn't pick up any newcomers, that is. You're always going to need some of those, since people leave gaming, leave the genre, die, etc. The question is, what's an adequate returning player percentage? Does anyone have real figures for the trilogy games? I saw speculation in the 2/3 range, but I don't know how reliable that is.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 16:54:34 GMT
They wouldn't be doubling down on a failed direction though? Because if people liked the combat and not the empty maps, then surely they should go with the combat that people liked and refine it, no? Too small a sample of positive reviews to take anything to heart about it. Going with what the people liked who will continue to buy your products in the right thing to do. Of course if an element is highly divisive and then Bioware needs to decide whether or not it makes sense to try win back a bunch of angry fans or stick with those who liked it. Imo trying to win back people who've been angry since 2012 is a bad idea. ESPECIALLY because a lot of these older gamers hate the social live service model that EA is so fond of. So EA's target audience is NOT the people who loved the trilogy anymore. As exhibited by Dark Fate, I'm gonna go back to it often, unfortunately, as I've already stated, so according to Dark Fate, in order to be put on ice, the franchise needs to have suffered a catastrophic failure. Which means, in addition to having flopped, it damaged the franchise to such an extent that it is non viable in its current iteration. In other words, you can't make a sequel to it. Not a direct sequel to it, at least. But as I've already stated here, place it too far in the future and you risk making the reason behind the name of the franchise irrelevant. Look at today compared to just 30 years ago; we've gone from the Challenger tragedy to reusable spacecrafts. So you've had the first controversy with Genisys/ME3 and then you have Andromeda/Dark Fate and now you're going to try again to get a new fanbase and forget the old one, with further risk of alienating further the left overs of the one you already have because ... you like risks? No, sorry, it's morally correct. It's ethical. These are not business decisions. You want to appeal to a new audience? Look what happened to Star Wars. Can't fail, right? Solo did. Merchandise is on clearance for pennies. Toys'R'Us declared bankruptcy because they couldn't get rid of them. If there was a different fanbase for Mass Effect, it would already be here. There isn't one and there won't be one. You can't trade a consumer for another and you can't grow a fanbase back from a non-viable consumer base. You either bring back the one you lost, because you can win it back, or you, at best, grow a little from non-viable to slightly less non-viable and maybe convince EA to keep you alive a little longer. At worst, you further alienate those who still held hope and EA shuts you down, Montreal style. Clearly Bioware was aiming for a younger generation who identified with the insecurities of the crew. It was kind of a coming of age story. I've heard many MEA fans say they like Ryder better than Shepard exactly because the twins felt more flawed and human than superhero Shepard. And those fans like their self-insert fantasies. That is not a direction I care for but fact is self-insert (romantic) fantasies are becoming more and more popular. So, Kamala Khan, again. Unsustainable in the AAA industry. So the die-hard romance group of their fanbase is still there because there are no good alternatives. Bioware now faces the difficult task to build a new younger fanbase that embraces GaaS and MTX. Things have changed dramatically in the AAA landscape and the Bioware of old is GONE. OK? Yes, MEA failed and put Mass Effect on ice. But a lot of it has to do with development hell. Plenty of people liked MEA better after patches. I didn't. But that's OK. People had specific expectations of a new title in the franchise. And the tone was so radically different that many older fans hated it. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't make a successful MEA2 when not a rushed mess. NOT for those who liked the tone of the trilogy but for those who liked Ryder. Remember what being "on ice" means. Ryder is not coming back. There won't be a MEA2 with Ryder, if an MEA2 at all. Which creates a new series of problems, as I explained here. You also assume that the fanbase of old won't put in the money for Mass Effect, which is demonstrably wrong, but you also have to account for the lootbox slowly going the way of the dodo. The MTX field is changing as far as the hard core gaming titles go. CoD gave in, Battlefront, well, we know how that went, and Battlefield V recently gave in as well. Not to mention how Jedi: Fallen Order chose to forgo them altogether, but I assume that has more to do with Disney intervention, than EA's grace. Furthermore, where is the fanbase dishing out cash for Anthem? In the first quarter since its release, the news were that Anthem generated $3m. Not bad, but nowhere near the hundreds of millions FIFA is making and EA wants, like they got with Apex Legends. Not enough to sustain Anthem's production and certainly not recurring, with reports of Anthem's population numbers, let's not use tanking, but dwindling. They certainly didn't make that much money in the no new content months that followed. No, kids won't play Mass Effect. At least not the 12 year olds Andrew Wilson hopes to engage. (Yuck!) And trying to predict what tomorrow's kids will play, in order to tailor the next ME to that, is impossible. There is no formula for that. And even so, what do kids play today? Fortnite? Minecraft? CS:GO? CoD? What is ME-like about those games? Nothing. At which point, you don't want to make Mass Effect. Which is why you made Anthem. And you did that wrong, too. So how many times can you be wrong about something? All of them? Let's go with all of them from now on. Worked great for Montreal. You seem to think that losing the old fanbase means no new fans will replace them. I bet people said the same thing when ME1 was released. A fanbase is always in flux. The question isn't about appeasing angry trilogy fans but finding an appealing formula for the current generation of gamers who come to Bioware without the baggage of disappointment dating back 8 fucking years. No. There won't be a new fanbase. You killed it. For there to be a flux, you need to have a fanbase that will be shifted gradually. You cut it off, completely. You called them idiots and entitled and that they need to move on, because attachment is bad. Again, Kamala Khan. That's where you find yourself. Fun for those who like it, but unsustainable in the AAA industry. Kids don't read comics today and they won't play Mass Effect tomorrow. There are too many parallels across the entertainment industry that you choose to disregard to paint a certain picture that is easily debunked.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 17:08:14 GMT
That's Planescape: Torment numbers if the game doesn't pick up any newcomers, that is. You're always going to need some of those, since people leave gaming, leave the genre, die, etc. Really? You're gonna count on that number to sell the 5-6 million copies EA wants? Unsustainable. You might as well have Casey tell everyone working at Bioware to start sending resumes, because you're going out of business. The question is, what's an adequate returning player percentage? Does anyone have real figures for the trilogy games? I saw speculation in the 2/3 range, but I don't know how reliable that is. You are completely forgetting about the marketing pull. A return to Shepard and the MW, not only gets the old fanbase interested again, but it sparks curiosity on the young ones as to what the fuss about this Mass Effect is all about. Not to mention we'd have moms and dads take their kids to retread the OT with their adolescent kids and initiating them in this wonderful world, because the overall feeling left from that was positive and they want a continuation of it. Andromeda, demonstrably, was not that. Not for everybody, obviously, since you, for example, are one of those who liked it, but generally ... on ice, you know?
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 13, 2019 17:09:10 GMT
But as I've already stated here, place it too far in the future and you risk making the reason behind the name of the franchise irrelevant. Look at today compared to just 30 years ago; we've gone from the Challenger tragedy to reusable spacecrafts. You mean, we've gone from one kind of reusable spacecraft to a different type of reusable spacecraft? You're not very good at this "convincing argument" thing sometimes. That argument can't work for the MEU anyway. Techs don't seem to progress that fast past a certain point. The Citadel races had mass effect technology and so for for thousands of years before humanity did, and het the Systems Alliance was on something like technological parity with the turian armed fores at first contact. If you want to say it's a problem with the MEU, feel free, but it's established fact. But really, you didn't post an argument. This is more of a handwave -- 50-100 years into the future can't work because the devs will have to do something that will make the universe unrecognizable. This isn't even falsifiable, because we don't know what the something is, why they'd have to do it, or how it would make the universe unrecognizable. You do this sort of thing a lot. I used to think it was because you don't actually bother to think the ideas through, but now I'm suspecting it's because you don't have any faith in the argument. And counterexamples are easy. Star Trek series happen over a period of two centuries, but they are all recognizable as Star Trek.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 17:10:14 GMT
Exactly I kind of think of MEA as kind of Mass Effect the Next Generation. When Star Trek TNG came out people were worried even the actors that the ycouldn't do a Star Trek without Kirk Spock and McCoy but not only did they do it it became a very good and well supported series in the end. It too didn't exactly have the best first season or so either but in the end it garnished enough popularity to work. I believe that if and when the ydecide to do an MEA2 so long as it's not in a bad state at launch like MEA was it can and will be received better. Ultimately though that's up to Bioware to decide if that's what they want. I want them to do an MEA2 but whetther they do and do it up to my expectations is up to them. Not to be a dick (which means I will be), but... Ice ice baby
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 13, 2019 17:18:42 GMT
That's Planescape: Torment numbers if the game doesn't pick up any newcomers, that is. You're always going to need some of those, since people leave gaming, leave the genre, die, etc. Really? You're gonna count on that number to sell the 5-6 million copies EA wants? Unsustainable. You might as well have Casey tell everyone working at Bioware to start sending resumes, because you're going out of business. But most of that 5-6 million would have to be new players anyway. Going from ME3 to MEA, you have ME3 selling maybe, what, 4 million. Assuming that 2/3 retention figure, retention figure, you need as many new players just to get to 5 million, more to get to 6. And that's assuming 2/3 retention, which likely wasn't realistic anyway given the protagonist/setting shift. I am not forgetting the marketing pull. I am denying that it exists to the extent you want to believe it does. I don't think Shepard is as popular as you need to believe he is. Remember, most of the actual fans don't want Shepard back, and for good reason. So you're depending on numbers of ex-fans and casuals to make up for that.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 17:28:59 GMT
You mean, we've gone from one kind of reusable spacecraft to a different type of reusable spacecraft? You're not very good at this "convincing argument" thing sometimes. Mass Effect! Now, without Mass Effect. Doesn't work as well, does it? That argument can't work for the MEU anyway. Techs don't seem to progress that fast past a certain point. The Citadel races had mass effect technology and so for for thousands of years before humanity did, and het the Systems Alliance was on something like technological parity with the turian armed fores at first contact. If you want to say it's a problem with the MEU, feel free, but it's established fact. You had a technology, that was so advanced that your entire civilization was dependent on it, but you couldn't even replicate it, in some cases (Relays), and you had no technology that was better than it. In Andromeda, there isn't any. Which means you'll have to find new ways to do things, so if you're gonna reuse Andromeda and because of how the first entry worked out and I explained what's gonna happen to it, Mass Effect technology will be technologically irrelevant, at that point. Similarly, go back to MW and set it to a thousand years in the future and, since the destruction of all Reaper tech there, there won't be any Mass Effect tech driving the future, either. So what's Mass Effect? Something something a thousand years in the past. Irrelevant. There is no Mass Effect. But really, you didn't post an argument. This is more of a handwave -- 50-100 years into the future can't work because the devs will have to do something that will make the universe unrecognizable The very basis of the setting, more like. But sure, let's go with nothing. This isn't even falsifiable, because we don't know what the something is, why they'd have to do it, or how it would make the universe unrecognizable Because a lot of that tech we didn't understand how it worked, we couldn't replicate it and we'd need temporary, or permanent, alternatives. Which leaves tech to develop in ways not tied down to Reaper tech. Isn't that the Artistic Vision behind Mac's grand design of all Reaper tech getting destroyed in the original endings? Relays, Citadel etc? Are you implying it wasn't well thought out? Are you saying it was a stupid idea that should never have been implemented in the endings? How dare you? You do this sort of thing a lot. I used to think it was because you don't actually bother to think the ideas through, but now I'm suspecting it's because you don't have any faith in the argument. If you don't understand an argument, you can ask me to further explain it, but usually, you just have me running in circles. I feel like a goldfish. And counterexamples are easy. Star Trek series happen over a period of two centuries, but they are all recognizable as Star Trek. Yes. And there are good and bad Star Trek shows and movies and the warp drive is still relevant and it usually involves space and trekking. Even DS9 involved Trekking, more often than not. And that was a space station that went nowhere. Can you have a Mass Effect that has nothing to do with the Mass Effect?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 13, 2019 17:37:07 GMT
But most of that 5-6 million would have to be new players anyway. Going from ME3 to MEA, you have ME3 selling maybe, what, 4 million. Assuming that 2/3 retention figure, retention figure, you need as many new players just to get to 5 million, more to get to 6. And that's assuming 2/3 retention, which likely wasn't realistic anyway given the protagonist/setting shift. Less than the Planescape: Torment crowd would need to fill in. And no, less than half of the playerbase would have to be new players to reach that number. ME:A sold less than ME2. Out of the crowd that bought ME:A, you'd have to remove the ones that disliked it, out of the ones remaining, you'd have to then apply the retention for ME:A2 and that leaves you with a very small amount of people, far less than what would return for a sequel to ME3, for example. I am not forgetting the marketing pull. I am denying that it exists to the extent you want to believe it does. I don't think Shepard is as popular as you need to believe he is. You made one game without him. One. And that instantly put the franchise on ice. I'm not saying there can't be a ME without Shepard, but you won't be able to sell it anytime soon.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 13, 2019 17:42:11 GMT
Remember, most of the actual fans don't want Shepard back, and for good reason. So you're depending on numbers of ex-fans and casuals to make up for that. Can you give a number of actual fans? And what makes an actual fan?
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