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Post by x19dude95 on Aug 6, 2019 13:20:07 GMT
Just link minds with the Asari councilor to show her/It the vision? You could say He/She didn't know the Asari could do that when first at the citadel, But what about after Shep saves Liara? Only argument than is Shepard doesn't want to view the vision again, so I say is why?
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Post by themikefest on Aug 6, 2019 13:26:27 GMT
Or why wasn't there an option to bring Shiala to the council to tell them the same thing she told Shepard? Maybe her and the asari councilor might have done the mind meld thing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 17:06:31 GMT
Or why wasn't there an option to bring Shiala to the council to tell them the same thing she told Shepard? Maybe her and the asari councilor might have done the mind meld thing.
I say it's probably because they wanted to give the player the option of shooting Shiala in the head. If the main plot became contingent on Shiala melding with the Asari councillor, that option could not exist since it would defeat the plot... so, instead they made it such that, if spared, Shiala simply makes a choice that involves staying on Feros rather than joining Shepard and returning to the Council. Sure, it would have been better written if they didn't make the ME1 plot rely so heavily on the Council not believing Shepard... making the Council out as ignorant jerks just for the H of it.
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Post by Upggrade on Aug 12, 2019 16:57:01 GMT
Would you do something that intimate with someone you think is a kook? Especially if you're one of the most powerful politicians in the galaxy and they're just some goon.
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Post by x19dude95 on Aug 26, 2019 23:51:03 GMT
Would you do something that intimate with someone you think is a kook? Especially if you're one of the most powerful politicians in the galaxy and they're just some goon. Well if it could prove something.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 15:27:56 GMT
Would you do something that intimate with someone you think is a kook? Especially if you're one of the most powerful politicians in the galaxy and they're just some goon. Well if it could prove something. The Asari councillor doesn't need or want to prove it, though. The onus is on Shepard to prove it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 2, 2019 12:22:15 GMT
The Asari councillor doesn't need or want to prove it, though Actually, Tevos is very supportive of your endeavor, though subtly so. She can't be outright combative of the other two who clearly don't believe in Shepard.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 16:24:17 GMT
The Asari councillor doesn't need or want to prove it, though Actually, Tevos is very supportive of your endeavor, though subtly so. She can't be outright combative of the other two who clearly don't believe in Shepard. You must have a skewed definition of being "supportive" then. Let's analyze her dialogue.
At the initial meeting, she states 1) "Humanity was well aware of the risks when they went into the Traverse." 2) "We will discuss the C-Sec findings at the hearing. Not before."
At the second meeting, she states: 1) "There is nothing to indicate Saren was involved in any way." 2) "Shepard's admission into the spectres is not the purpose of this meeting."
Then, after the Salarian councillor says we need evidence, Anderson brings up the vision as a possibility by saying "There is one more outstanding issue. Commander Shepard's vision. It may have been triggered by the beacon." Anderson doesn't mention Reapers or what the vision contains and it is brought up immediately following the Salarians request for evidence on Saren.
Saren objects about allowing dreams into evidence and asks the council "How can I defend my innocence against this kind of testimony." So, it's still not about proving the Reapers, it's about whether or not the vision might provide evidence against Saren.
Tevos does not offer to verify the contents of the vision. Instead, she says only: "The council has found no evidence on any connection between Saren and the geth. Ambassador, your petition to have him disbarred from the spectres is denied."
Had she actually been supportive and knowing that such a meld was possible to verify whatever it was that Shepard saw, she would have offered to do such a meld. Instead, she doesn't open that possibility, so it is absolutely clear that she doesn't want to find proof of Saren's misconduct. Belief in the Reapers isn't even on the table yet.
In the second meeting, the vision itself is not brought up at all. It is the Salarian councillor who expresses interest about the Reapers... and then, along with the turian councillor, dismisses them as a myth. Tevos is in favor of making Shepard a spectre to send him/her after Saren, but in no way is supportive of the notion that the Reapers are a real threat. She only says that they don't yet know why Saren is after the conduit. Again, the vision is not brought up at all at that meeting. Had she been interested in proving up why Saren might be after the Conduit, she could have inquired about the vision again and offered to do a meld. She didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 19:10:09 GMT
The Asari councillor doesn't need or want to prove it, though Actually, Tevos is very supportive of your endeavor, though subtly so. She can't be outright combative of the other two who clearly don't believe in Shepard. So, now let's analyze the dialogue after Virmire. When the Turian and Salaiian councillors indicate that there they've found no corroborating evidence to show that the Reapers exist, Tevos clearly sides with them, not Shepard:
"Try to see it from our perspective, Commander. Saren is a threat we can recognize. However, as far as we know, the Reapers only exist in your visions. The Salarian councillor cuts in with a statement about how the council can't act "without solid evidence"; and Tevos sides with her, saying: "The Council cannot take any official action here. That is why we created the Spectres. You have the authority to act as you see fit."
So, yet again, she's made no offer to even look at whatever evidence the visions themselves might add to the strength of Shepard's case. She is totally accepting of the statements of the other two councillors that there is no solid evidence. Furthermore, she places the burden of proof and action on squarely on Shepard's shoulders.
I stand by my statement. She doesn't need or want to prove it. She wants the door left open for the council to use "plausible deniability" if things go south. That's why they created the spectres after all.
So, the question is why doesn't Shepard bring it up? Well, he/she gets it... As a spectre, part of the job is to protect the council's plausible deniability. After Sovereign attacks the Citadel, the visions are a moot point. If blowing up a Reaper in front of the millions of people who live and work on the Citadel doesn't provide enough evidence as to their existence, showing the council the visions wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 3, 2019 11:15:53 GMT
So, now let's analyze the dialogue after Virmire There is a slew of dialogues between the span of the game that you've left out, though. I've been playing the game recently and Tevos, unlike Sparatus, is not dismissive, but rather seems to spur Shepard on in his investigation, by directly telling him what it would take for the other two councilors to accept his claims. But maybe I am the only one that sees it that way. So, you know, whatever. So, yet again, she's made no offer to even look at whatever evidence the visions themselves might add to the strength of Shepard's case. She is totally accepting of the statements of the other two councillors that there is no solid evidence. Furthermore, she places the burden of proof and action on squarely on Shepard's shoulders. I mean ... that's due process. You can get arrested for making false allegation, or get sued for libel. It is imperative to provide proof of a crime committed and, obviously, visions are inadmissible. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with the justice system, not the Council. If blowing up a Reaper in front of the millions of people who live and work on the Citadel doesn't provide enough evidence as to their existence, showing the council the visions wouldn't even be a blip on the radar. I understand why the Council's official stance would be to deny the Reapers existence. It would induce panic and mass hysteria and quite likely to the end of civilization as we know it, from the collapse of society this would cause. On the other hand, you have a former spectre, working for Cerberus and comes right up to the council demanding to know what they are doing for the Reapers. Keeping in mind that Cerberus is a human supremacy group that will take leverage of anything to undermine aliens. So here you have a dilemma; do you trust Shepard with valuable, behind the scenes military information and trust that they won't be leaked to Cerberus, which will lead to widespread panic and societal collapse, or withhold that information and avoid that debacle entirely. The second option is obviously the safer one. You can blame the council for not trusting you, but even that I find understandable.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 13:54:19 GMT
So, now let's analyze the dialogue after Virmire There is a slew of dialogues between the span of the game that you've left out, though. I've been playing the game recently and Tevos, unlike Sparatus, is not dismissive, but rather seems to spur Shepard on in his investigation, by directly telling him what it would take for the other two councilors to accept his claims. But maybe I am the only one that sees it that way. So, you know, whatever. So, yet again, she's made no offer to even look at whatever evidence the visions themselves might add to the strength of Shepard's case. She is totally accepting of the statements of the other two councillors that there is no solid evidence. Furthermore, she places the burden of proof and action on squarely on Shepard's shoulders. I mean ... that's due process. You can get arrested for making false allegation, or get sued for libel. It is imperative to provide proof of a crime committed and, obviously, visions are inadmissible. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with the justice system, not the Council. If blowing up a Reaper in front of the millions of people who live and work on the Citadel doesn't provide enough evidence as to their existence, showing the council the visions wouldn't even be a blip on the radar. I understand why the Council's official stance would be to deny the Reapers existence. It would induce panic and mass hysteria and quite likely to the end of civilization as we know it, from the collapse of society this would cause. On the other hand, you have a former spectre, working for Cerberus and comes right up to the council demanding to know what they are doing for the Reapers. Keeping in mind that Cerberus is a human supremacy group that will take leverage of anything to undermine aliens. So here you have a dilemma; do you trust Shepard with valuable, behind the scenes military information and trust that they won't be leaked to Cerberus, which will lead to widespread panic and societal collapse, or withhold that information and avoid that debacle entirely. The second option is obviously the safer one. You can blame the council for not trusting you, but even that I find understandable. You're pulling things away from the context in which I post them again. Rather than just alleging that she's supportive, please quote those conversations and prove your argument. My argument is that she falls short of being actually supportive when it comes to proving up what evidence the visions might contain. She has lots of opportunity to open the door to a mind meld and see for herself what the vision contains and never does so.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 3, 2019 14:05:16 GMT
You're pulling things away from the context in which I post them again. Rather than just alleging that she's supportive, please quote those conversations and prove your argument. My argument is that she falls short of being actually supportive when it comes to proving up what evidence the visions might contain. She has lots of opportunity to open the door to a mind meld and see for herself what the vision contains and never does so. You are being quite aggressive about this. Is something wrong? We can talk about it, if you like. I'm always willing to listen to whatever is troubling you. Anyway, back on topic, no, I do not currently have access to any source that I can quote Tevos' lines from, as I am at work. I can just start up the game and pick a save to converse with the council and Tevos at the moment. And please excuse my less than perfect memory for not being able to conjure up the dialogues verbatim in a moment's notice. If you could be so kind as to share the source where you got those dialogues from, I could perhaps scour that for the rest of Tevos' lines. Unless you typed them out yourself, out of a youtube video, in which case I won't be able to do that. Not for several more hours at least.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 23:00:16 GMT
You're pulling things away from the context in which I post them again. Rather than just alleging that she's supportive, please quote those conversations and prove your argument. My argument is that she falls short of being actually supportive when it comes to proving up what evidence the visions might contain. She has lots of opportunity to open the door to a mind meld and see for herself what the vision contains and never does so. You are being quite aggressive about this. Is something wrong? We can talk about it, if you like. I'm always willing to listen to whatever is troubling you. Anyway, back on topic, no, I do not currently have access to any source that I can quote Tevos' lines from, as I am at work. I can just start up the game and pick a save to converse with the council and Tevos at the moment. And please excuse my less than perfect memory for not being able to conjure up the dialogues verbatim in a moment's notice. If you could be so kind as to share the source where you got those dialogues from, I could perhaps scour that for the rest of Tevos' lines. Unless you typed them out yourself, out of a youtube video, in which case I won't be able to do that. Not for several more hours at least. I typed them out from this Youtube Video:
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 4, 2019 13:28:46 GMT
I typed them out from this Youtube Video:
Uh ...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 15:21:42 GMT
I typed them out from this Youtube Video:
Uh ... Oops... Ctrl-C didn't take. That link was for another post. I've corrected it now. Sorry.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 4, 2019 15:23:13 GMT
Oops... Ctrl-C didn't take. That link was for another post. I've corrected it now. Sorry. Thanks. I will look into it, once I get off the clock.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 7, 2019 8:05:55 GMT
I imagine there's a strict convention of "mind melding isn't considered credible or admissible testimony under any circumstances, ever" that the Citadel must have inherited from Asari culture.
It's not only supposed to be far too intimate for any professional setting, the visions we see through it in the series are also very abstract and emotionally charged, and not always even based on objective reality. Any kind of barrister or judge who accepted such a testimony would immediately be open to accusations of having been emotionally compromised or having based their verdicts on unreliable data, neither of which anybody would be able to either verify or rule out.
Even worse, for the Asari Councilor to personally accept such a connection with one of Saren's accomplices could totally undermine her trustworthiness and cause a rift between the Council members. Who's to say she wasn't in on the conspiracy from the beginning, and is using this yucky Asari practice to manufacture evidence for whatever reason?
Shepard accepting it as a way to follow up on a lead is one thing, but throwing it around as a basis for policy decisions in the most powerful senate in the galaxy...
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 9, 2019 19:47:02 GMT
I imagine there's a strict convention of "mind melding isn't considered credible or admissible testimony under any circumstances, ever" that the Citadel must have inherited from Asari culture. It's not only supposed to be far too intimate for any professional setting, the visions we see through it in the series are also very abstract and emotionally charged, and not always even based on objective reality. Any kind of barrister or judge who accepted such a testimony would immediately be open to accusations of having been emotionally compromised or having based their verdicts on unreliable data, neither of which anybody would be able to either verify or rule out. Shepard accepting it as a way to follow up on a lead is one thing, but throwing it around as a basis for policy decisions in the most powerful senate in the galaxy... You're assuming the Council needs to explain their actions before anyone. But she acknowledged Saren and Benezia's misdoings and banished Saren already in the first game.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 9, 2019 20:44:25 GMT
1)You're assuming the Council needs to explain their actions before anyone. 2)But she acknowledged Saren and Benezia's misdoings and banished Saren already in the first game. 1) Uhm, no I'm not, I'm assuming that the Council members need to be able to explain their actions to each other, and to their voters if a conflict between them requiring intervention emerges. If two out of a triumvirate can't trust that the third isn't compromised by terrorists then that's not really a sustainable basis for a political body, is it? 2) Of course she did, she was presented with an audio recording proving their link to murderous robots terrorizing the galaxy. Trying to advocate for Saren and Benezia in the face of that would definitely have been political suicide, and it wouldn't have protected either. Look, I'm not saying that she was in league with Saren or even that her accepting a mind meld would definitely have led to trouble, just that keeping mind melding far away from government decisions of any level would definitely be a cautious and appropriate general policy, and that accepting it in this instance at the very least might be construed as reckless and improper, and could potentially lead to a lot of suspicion and discomfort between the councilors. Which for any politician would mean a hard "no". I certainly wouldn't have done it in her shoes. Much safer to just have Shepard run the extra lap around the galaxy looking for more substantial proof.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 10, 2019 10:50:19 GMT
1)You're assuming the Council needs to explain their actions before anyone. 2)But she acknowledged Saren and Benezia's misdoings and banished Saren already in the first game. 1) Uhm, no I'm not, I'm assuming that the Council members need to be able to explain their actions to each other, and to their voters if a conflict between them requiring intervention emerges. If two out of a triumvirate can't trust that the third isn't compromised by terrorists then that's not really a sustainable basis for a political body, is it? If it's something small like sending Shepard for a special mission, the decision doesn't have to be public, my point since the beginning. If the other councillors don't trust her then there's an actual problem but she never attempts any investigation at all. I'm advocating the opposite: investivating Saren and Benezia's past even further. But she didn't do even this, she flushes Shepard down completely in the second game.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 10, 2019 14:26:05 GMT
1) If it's something small like sending Shepard for a special mission, the decision doesn't have to be public, my point since the beginning. If the other councillors don't trust her then there's an actual problem but she never attempts any investigation at all. 2) I'm advocating the opposite: investivating Saren and Benezia's past even further. 3) But she didn't do even this, she flushes Shepard down completely in the second game. 1) Sure she does. She sends a capable agent and their crew of skilled individuals and trusts them to gather information without her having to personally stick her neck out for it, which is the best you can hope for from any politician. Whether or not the issue is immediately public is irrelevant, she's still accountable for her actions and knows that she can be replaced, and doesn't want to be. 2) No, you posited that her condemning Saren and Benezia is proof enough that she's against them that the other Councillors couldn't suspect her of being compromised for accepting the mind-meld. What I'm saying is that her refusing to condemn those two in the face of hard evidence would be sufficiently moronic, suspicious and pointless even if she wanted to that no, it doesn't. 3) So? In the second game she believes the threat - the Geth in her mind - to have been contained, having no substantial reason to think otherwise. She wasn't there to hear Sovereign speak on its own accord and claim dominion over the galaxy. To be honest I don't find Shepard's visions very compelling evidence either. They're just a series of vague and subtly gruesome images and noises. They could mean almost anything, or nothing at all. Just someone's terrible nightmare programmed into the Beacon for whatever reason. Shepard's out-of-nowhere conviction that they're proof positive of an ancient machine extermination of all life returned to haunt everyone rings really hollow in the early game, before it's confirmed by independent sources. I don't see that delivering the vision to the Asari Councilar would particularly help anything even if she was liable to accept it.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 10, 2019 21:23:40 GMT
1) If it's something small like sending Shepard for a special mission, the decision doesn't have to be public, my point since the beginning. If the other councillors don't trust her then there's an actual problem but she never attempts any investigation at all. 2) I'm advocating the opposite: investivating Saren and Benezia's past even further. 3) But she didn't do even this, she flushes Shepard down completely in the second game. 1) Sure she does. She sends a capable agent and their crew of skilled individuals and trusts them to gather information without her having to personally stick her neck out for it, which is the best you can hope for from any politician. Whether or not the issue is immediately public is irrelevant, she's still accountable for her actions and knows that she can be replaced, and doesn't want to be. But stops shortly after the first sign of a threat is buried and then doesn't try to figure out for certain what it actually was. I didn't say it makes her trustworthy for sure (didn't think about what exactly it accomplishes tbf), only that it's the best way to follow and she went there in the beginning. Assuming that the salarian and the turian really don't believe her, which is… well, possible, can't recall any counter-evidence.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 11, 2019 1:40:34 GMT
But stops shortly after the first sign of a threat is buried and then doesn't try to figure out for certain what it actually was. She's just doing her job, which is to keep Citadel space running, not solving mysteries. She and the other Councilors send Shepard to continue rooting out potential Geth problems, and there's nothing to be found. Then Shepard's ship is destroyed by a freighter that the crew testifies wasn't Geth, and could easily have been pirates or one of Shepard's enemies taking them out for personal reasons. Then two years go by with nary a peep from the Geth and no other sign that there's anything to be worried about on that count. Humans have muscled their way into the Council and things are pretty hectic for a while, and that takes up attention. Each separate military has no doubt been warned to keep an eye out for Geth, but there's nothing. And the Council can't act on nothing. There's no doubt that it makes them seem frustratingly stupid and uncaring sometimes, but democratic government bodies can't let their policy be erratically dictated by the vague outdated suspicions of their spies. By definition they need a lot more to take official action, even though doing so out of hand might seem like the right thing to do to you and me. I actually thought that was a brilliant move they made in ME2. They presented the Council with a threat they officially had no way of dealing with - small colonies disappearing beyond their jurisdiction. So Shepard has to deal with organizations with nowhere near the ethical standards of a democratic government to get it fixed, and that inevitably means supporting unsavory people, and they have to decide how okay they are with that as a matter of principle. The Alliance is sniffing at the problem too, but they aren't putting anywhere near the effort into it that Cerberus is yet. And because Cerberus is a terrorist organization, they can't even coordinate that effort with Shepard while s/he's associated with them. It's a lovely combination of practical policy conflicts and actually subtle moral boundaries that Shepard has to navigate without necessarily being prepared for it, which is very realistic when you're trying to get something done outside official channels.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 12, 2019 10:59:40 GMT
But stops shortly after the first sign of a threat is buried and then doesn't try to figure out for certain what it actually was. She's just doing her job, which is to keep Citadel space running, not solving mysteries. She and the other Councilors send Shepard to continue rooting out potential Geth problems, and there's nothing to be found. But ordering someone to solve those mysteries is a matter of security, which is a part of "keeping the galaxy running".
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 12, 2019 12:36:51 GMT
She's just doing her job, which is to keep Citadel space running, not solving mysteries. She and the other Councilors send Shepard to continue rooting out potential Geth problems, and there's nothing to be found. But ordering someone to solve those mysteries is a matter of security, which is a part of "keeping the galaxy running". Not when you have pretty compelling evidence that everyone involved is already dead. Then sending people to solve the mysteries - which may or may not actually be possible at all - becomes a waste of public resources that are always sorely needed elsewhere. She sent Shepard, they made the effort, and it cost the Citadel Fleet a warship worth an absolute fortune, and a hero. I think it makes sense for the Council to stop investigating at that point.
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