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Post by Iddy on Aug 8, 2019 13:01:26 GMT
This probably is one of the Inquisition's greatest flaws as an organization.
If they do it without being asked, then it is a criminal interference. And if they do it when their help is requested, then they become political mercenaries. A trump card to be used by any noble or ruler who can make a good enough offer.
The more I think about it, the more I feel like it should only exist to defeat Corypheus and go home.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 8, 2019 19:31:56 GMT
Meddling into foreign affairs would certainly cause a ruckus. But then again....isn't that what the Inquisition meant to do? As Leliana said the Divine's directive for the organization was "Restore the Inquisition of Old, find those willing to stand against the chaos".
Sure Cory ended up being our top priority since he caused the breach, but for all intents and purposes the Divine left the main goal vague enough that any attempt to "stand against the chaos"--be it mages, templars or bandits--would be justified with her authority. Not that she was alive long enough to use that authority, but I digress.
The Inquisition was originally going to be a Divine (aka Chantry) backed organization, meaning that they technically had jurisdiction to act in any Andrastian nation. They wouldn't even have to ask, Andrastian law is practically everywhere in the South and mages/templars are practically viewed as Chantry charges. Meaning they definitely had the authority to deal with them as they pleased, regardless of which Andrastian nation they happened to be in. And even with the Divine dead, the Inquisition was still a force primarily comprised of the Divine's faithful and still ended up with enough authority where they could more or less act as they wished.
Not that your concerns aren't valid. In fact they are perfectly legitimate. But in the main games the threats the Inquisition's main enemies were mostly enemies a Chantry-aligned organization would be expected to face. A blighted magister, the mage-templar war, blood-magic using wardens (maleficarum), etc. The conflicts where thier authority was most dubious was the war of the lions and the bandits in crestwood. But by that time we had enough power to more or less do as we pleased. We had the Divine's charter, noble allies, and the brute force to back it all up.
But that's where Trespasser comes in. After all is said and done, the Inquisition is a large power that answers to no one but itself. Fully capable of taking over any nation it wished if it so pleased. Hence why the council all but declared that they should either disband or become a "legitimate" organization.
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Post by phoray on Aug 8, 2019 19:56:51 GMT
The enemy was meddling in foreign affairs. We followed the enemy.
I reject responsibility for what the writers did with my Inquisition off screen. I was as horrified to learn what my "crimes" were as they were that I'd supposedly done them.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 9, 2019 0:14:45 GMT
The enemy was meddling in foreign affairs. We followed the enemy. Yeah, it's not any different than the Warden breaking their order's normal rules about remaining politically neutral, because not intervening in the Ferelden Civil War and Orzammar succession crisis would have meant not having the forces to take on the Archdemon and end the Blight.
Same with the Inquisition, their mandate was to restore the peace. The Breach necessitated getting involved with the Mage-Templar War to have the means to close it, while intervening with the Orlesian Civil War was a byproduct of trying to stop Celene's assassination or prevent Corypheus from exploiting a weak/leaderless Orlais to sow further chaos.
Desperate times require sometimes bending the rules or throwing out the rulebook entirely.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2019 8:20:46 GMT
What I also felt is that much of the time the Inquisition seemed the only power trying to restore order. Crestwood was a case in point. Teagan may have moaned about us taking over the Keep but who else tried doing anything about the bandits using it? What we did was in fact exactly within Ferelden law. There the freeholders decide to whom they will give their patronage and if a noble doesn't fulfil their duties towards them, they are perfectly entitled to shift their allegiance elsewhere. The freeholders of Crestwood had basically been left to shift for themselves against bandits, undead, demons, etc, with their native nobles doing nothing. Thus when the Inquisition arrived, solved the problems and occupied the Keep, so long as the freeholders of Crestwood were happy, we were perfectly entitled to stay. This was also true of other areas in Ferelden, where the nobles acted as absentee landlords and in one War Table mission actually had the cheek to demand we removed the refugees from his land and then complained when we sided with the refugees. It always irked me we were not able to say as much to Teagan, except as part of an aggressive disband speech.
The Emprise du Lion was a slightly different case since that was in Orlais, where nobles rule by divine right and feel entitled to their holdings whether they have earned the respect of those living on the land or not, most of which are peasants in a feudal system rather than freeholders. The noble in charge of the region seemed to have done a deal with the Red Templars, although we could later get her to give reparation to the peasants for this. As the nobility had also been involved in a civil war, it was slightly understandable that no one was available to give her assistance. Even so, I question who exactly had been in occupation of Suledin Keep before the war. It is noticeable, however, that the Orlesians were not calling for us to disband, merely to surrender some of a temporal power and come under the authority of the Divine, as the original mandate had intended.
By contrast, I don't think anyone was laying claim to the Griffons Wing Keep even if technically it was part of Orlais. Assuming that it was considered necessary to have a military presence in the area, why not the Inquisition? Clearly, the Wardens were in no position to demand its return to their Order even if they had occupied it in the past.
Personally, I was always happier to disband than put my organisation under the authority of the Chantry, regardless of who was currently Divine, which essentially was a repeat of history and would have meant I had learned nothing from what had happened in the past. What I would have preferred was a third option where I brazened it out because I felt that the ordinary people of Thedas needed a totally independent organisation looking out for their interests. However, I suppose that would have simply resulted in assassination even if the ordinary people backed my stance.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 9, 2019 11:26:30 GMT
The enemy was meddling in foreign affairs. We followed the enemy. I reject responsibility for what the writers did with my Inquisition off screen. I was as horrified to learn what my "crimes" were as they were that I'd supposedly done them. Sure, but not everything the Inquisition does is about Corypheus or the Breach. There are many war table missions where the goal is to consolidate power for the organization, whether by trading favors, blackmailing or destroying certain nobles so that the Inquisition friendly ones may rise.
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Post by Sokemis on Aug 9, 2019 11:42:43 GMT
There are many war table missions where the goal is to consolidate power for the organization, whether by trading favors, blackmailing or destroying certain nobles so that the Inquisition friendly ones may rise. You could argue that even those missions (most of them anyway) could still have the same end game in sight. Need allies and their support/coin/supplies to feed/house/outfit an army the size of the Inquistion's, in order to be able to fight Coryfish's army
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Post by Sifr on Aug 9, 2019 13:18:12 GMT
What I also felt is that much of the time the Inquisition seemed the only power trying to restore order. Crestwood was a case in point. Teagan may have moaned about us taking over the Keep but who else tried doing anything about the bandits using it? What we did was in fact exactly within Ferelden law. There the freeholders decide to whom they will give their patronage and if a noble doesn't fulfil their duties towards them, they are perfectly entitled to shift their allegiance elsewhere. The freeholders of Crestwood had basically been left to shift for themselves against bandits, undead, demons, etc, with their native nobles doing nothing. Thus when the Inquisition arrived, solved the problems and occupied the Keep, so long as the freeholders of Crestwood were happy, we were perfectly entitled to stay. This was also true of other areas in Ferelden, where the nobles acted as absentee landlords and in one War Table mission actually had the cheek to demand we removed the refugees from his land and then complained when we sided with the refugees. It always irked me we were not able to say as much to Teagan, except as part of an aggressive disband speech. I think Teagan's problem is that the Inquisition is perceived by many to be an Orlesian organisation.
After all, it was set up by the head of the Orlesian Chantry and it's headquarters were on Orlesian-owned land in Ferelden (Haven) or within Orlais' borders (Skyhold). Besides Skyhold, two additional Inquisition strongholds are located in Orlais and they've engaged in joint-military actions together with the Orlesian army within the Arbor Wilds.
Josephine even references this perception during "In Hushed Whispers" when warning against a direct assault on Redcliffe castle, as even if their forces won and took the castle from the Venatori, marching an "Orlesian" Inquisition's army into Ferelden might risk triggering a war between the two nations.
So from the perspective of Teagan and other members of the Bannorn, the Inquisition may seem like an Orlesian plot to make another land grab in their territory, under the guise of "restoring peace". It doesn't help either that Orlais is more friendly to the Inquisition during the Exalted Council, further solidifying Fereldan suspicions that the Inquisition is working with Orlais or at least in Orlais' interests.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2019 18:09:43 GMT
I think Teagan's problem is that the Inquisition is perceived by many to be an Orlesian organisation.
After all, it was set up by the head of the Orlesian Chantry and it's headquarters were on Orlesian-owned land in Ferelden (Haven) or within Orlais' borders (Skyhold). Besides Skyhold, two additional Inquisition strongholds are located in Orlais and they've engaged in joint-military actions together with the Orlesian army within the Arbor Wilds. I must admit you have a point, although the writers did seem to forget there even were Ferelden nobility who might object to certain plot points. For example, in Champions of the Just when our appeal to the Templar Order based deep within Ferelden territory is done with the backing of Orlesian nobility. So apparently Ferelden were just fine with this situation? Did Josephine not feel that it would be more appropriate to have invited Ferelden nobility? Then that whole business with Haven allegedly belonging to an Orlesian noble having been gifted it by the monarch of Ferelden. When exactly? If it was done during the Orlesian occupation then it was not valid. If it was done after the Orlesian occupation, why exactly? Bearing in mind that apparently no one knew anything about the region, let alone there was a settlement there and it had allegedly been that way since the time of Andraste, no one really had a claim on it but certainly not Orlais. I feel that was also true of Skyhold. If anyone could lay claim to that area of the Frostback Mountains I'd say it was the Avvar. Still, I'd also point out that in the early days many of our conscripts were from Ferelden and if we did the Hushed Whispers plot then we did help defend Ferelden against occupation by a foreign power. If you opted for joint operations with the Qun, then their intelligence and personnel enabled a sequence of war tables missions that ultimately saved Denerim from destruction. Not to mention sorting out a problem in the Frostback Basin that had it been left would have been just as much if not more of a threat to Ferelden than Orlais, as the Avvar generally attack Ferelden first (something that was overlooked in the JoH plotline together with the fact that in Drakon's time if the Jaws had come down the western side of the Frostbacks then they would have had to fight their way through the Dalish before they got to troubling Orlais). I just felt that the writers made certain assumptions when it came to the viewpoint of Teagan, for example that we had refused to relinquish Crestwood when requested to do so, when to my knowledge we were never asked. Nevertheless, given the options we were given, as I say above, I opted for disbanding rather than putting the organisation into the hands of the Divine/Chantry and thus effectively Orlais as well. It just annoyed me that it made it seem like Teagan was right about my leadership when in fact I had always tried to be impartial but if I favoured anyone it was always Ferelden and I would have liked some assurance that in future the nobles of Ferelden would start doing their duty by the freeholders when the Inquisition was no longer around to defend them.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 10, 2019 18:49:44 GMT
Then that whole business with Haven allegedly belonging to an Orlesian noble having been gifted it by the monarch of Ferelden. When exactly? If it was done during the Orlesian occupation then it was not valid. If it was done after the Orlesian occupation, why exactly? Bearing in mind that apparently no one knew anything about the region, let alone there was a settlement there and it had allegedly been that way since the time of Andraste, no one really had a claim on it but certainly not Orlais.
I looked up the conversation and if you press Maquis DuRellion on his claim of ownership, he explains;
"My wife, Lady Machen of Denerim, has claim to Haven by ancient treaty with the monarchs of Ferelden."
So Haven still belongs to Ferelden, the only reason that an Orlesian house has any claim on it is because Maquis DuRellion's wife is Fereldan and it is she who owns the land, not him.
(I'm assuming that Lady Machen is Fereldan, based on her name and reference to being "of Denerim". If she was from an old Fereldan family and inherited the land, that would be the best explanation for why she came to have a claim on it as well.)
Until the Temple of Sacred Ashes was discovered, perhaps Lady Machen's family didn't even know about the land, or else didn't bother with it, since there was (supposedly) nothing there worth any value at all.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 11, 2019 16:52:35 GMT
What I also felt is that much of the time the Inquisition seemed the only power trying to restore order. Crestwood was a case in point. Teagan may have moaned about us taking over the Keep but who else tried doing anything about the bandits using it? What we did was in fact exactly within Ferelden law. There the freeholders decide to whom they will give their patronage and if a noble doesn't fulfil their duties towards them, they are perfectly entitled to shift their allegiance elsewhere. The freeholders of Crestwood had basically been left to shift for themselves against bandits, undead, demons, etc, with their native nobles doing nothing. Thus when the Inquisition arrived, solved the problems and occupied the Keep, so long as the freeholders of Crestwood were happy, we were perfectly entitled to stay. This was also true of other areas in Ferelden, where the nobles acted as absentee landlords and in one War Table mission actually had the cheek to demand we removed the refugees from his land and then complained when we sided with the refugees. It always irked me we were not able to say as much to Teagan, except as part of an aggressive disband speech. [...]
To be fair, Ferelden seemed less like they were unwilling to restore order and more they simply couldn't restore order. Or at least not restore order quickly. Most of the nation is still attempting to recover form the blight, and we know that despite some nobles acting more tyrannical, that at least some of the nobility tried to help the situation. And not just mere Lords and Banns either but Arls, who are pretty up there in the ranks. Arl Teagan was at least willing to harbor the mages for a time (however reluctantly), and we know from one war table operation that Arl Gallagher Wulff also tried to 'help' the situation (despite how horrendous the result was) and when push came to shove, the monarchs made an actual physical appearance with an armed force in a relatively quick manner. So its not like they were sitting on thier thumbs waiting for the situation to go away somehow. They were just not the best at handling to situation at hand. Still though, it still irritates me that the game won't let me brandish the presumed public acceptance of the Inquisition in Ferelden when we first came in and dealt with the problems.
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