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Post by cypherj on Oct 17, 2019 16:50:52 GMT
GaaS and Live Service are not the same thing, they just aren't. There are fundamental differences for the player and the company.
GAAS - You're paying a set fee for the game as if it were a service. MMOs, Origin Access, paying a recurring fee to be able to play multiplayer. Which brings me to the fundamental difference between the two. If you stop paying this fee you lose access to the service/game. I stop paying my fee for FF XIV I can't play anymore. I stop paying for Origin Access, I lose the ability to play any game I didn't buy, or own previously. Stop paying the MP fee, you can no longer access the MP component. The game(s) is now a service you're paying for. Thus the GaaS tag.
As opposed to a Live Service game where you pay for the game or have it given to you for free, and they sell you items through microtransactions. However, you can still play the game even if you don't spend any additional money.
I have no issue with the GaaS model, I think Origin Access is great, I recommend it to anyone who thinks they will play at least two EA games a year. The player knows the fees, can look at what they're going to get, how much they play, and can make an informed decision. Since the company is getting constant revenue that they can forecast, they have no issue constantly working on new content, in the case of an MMO for example.
Live Service is what I hate because of the tendency for shady practices. Making the game pay to win to force people to spend money to keep up with other players, or make any real progress. Offering bare minimum product, with the promise of future additions. But since the revenue isn't constant and set, if the game doesn't perform well as far as MTX is concerned, you may never see the future content. Or you don't see on the schedule as promised. This was/is Anthem's issue. This is where more of the nickling and diming occurs,, lootboxes, all the stuff people really hate.
But the two models are not the same.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 17, 2019 17:26:38 GMT
where you pay for the game or have it given to you for free You don't own the game. You have a license and it can be revoked at any time. Whether there are several fees to renew said license each time or none is irrelevant.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 17, 2019 17:52:02 GMT
where you pay for the game or have it given to you for free You don't own the game. You have a license and it can be revoked at any time. Whether there are several fees to renew said license each time or none is irrelevant. Obviously I'm talking about FTP games, as opposed to buying it, not being given the game to own. Point was one model you can play the game without purchasing additional content, and the other the game becomes a service no different than cable, cell phone or internet. You can only play if you're paying.
Both differ from a perpetual software license from olden days where you could buy the game and keep playing it even if the developer went out of business because no part was hosted by the company, and there was no DRM.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 17, 2019 18:01:04 GMT
You don't own the game. You have a license and it can be revoked at any time. Whether there are several fees to renew said license each time or none is irrelevant. Obviously I'm talking about FTP games, as opposed to buying it, not being given the game to own. Point was one model you can play the game without purchasing additional content, and the other the game becomes a service no different than cable, cell phone or internet. You can only play if you're paying.
Both differ from a perpetual software license from olden days where you could buy the game and keep playing it even if the developer went out of business because no part was hosted by the company, and there was no DRM.
Both are services and can be shut down at any one point, if the provider/publisher decides to do so. No matter if you paid five cents or five million, the moment the provider of the service takes that service down, the game is no longer available.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Oct 17, 2019 19:00:05 GMT
Obviously I'm talking about FTP games, as opposed to buying it, not being given the game to own. Point was one model you can play the game without purchasing additional content, and the other the game becomes a service no different than cable, cell phone or internet. You can only play if you're paying.
Both differ from a perpetual software license from olden days where you could buy the game and keep playing it even if the developer went out of business because no part was hosted by the company, and there was no DRM.
Both are services and can be shut down at any one point, if the provider/publisher decides to do so. No matter if you paid five cents or five million, the moment the provider of the service takes that service down, the game is no longer available. Yeah, but I don't see what that has to do with the two models being different. Dish, cable and streaming providers can stop providing service at any time as well, but that doesn't make them all the same business model.
My point is, and has been that the two types of game models are different. Outside the company going crazy and cutting off their revenue stream. A GaaS model is different from a Live service model because you have to continually keep paying in order to play the game. Whereas a live service model, you buy the game initially or play it F2P and aren't required to continually pay.
From a business perspective GaaS provides constant, set revenue which is much easier to forecast, and provide resources for future content development. Whereas live service is not guaranteed, harder to forecast, and the lack of set recurring revenue sometimes leads to more questionable business practices aimed at forcing the player to spend money.
Aside from DA4 being an MMO, it;s more likely to be the latter if it goes the monetization route, and that's why people have concerns.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2019 19:04:43 GMT
Casey Hudson already told us what Live Service means for Bioware. And I haven't seen his definition used yet. You guys are getting your hair up for nothing.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 17, 2019 19:23:47 GMT
Casey Hudson already told us what Live Service means for Bioware. And I haven't seen his definition used yet. You guys are getting your hair up for nothing.
I'm not concerned about DA4. I'm just saying that GaaS are different than Live service games in general.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 17, 2019 19:25:33 GMT
Casey Hudson already told us what Live Service means for Bioware. And I haven't seen his definition used yet. You guys are getting your hair up for nothing. You probably should repost that definition if you're gonna bring it up.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2019 19:35:46 GMT
Casey Hudson already told us what Live Service means for Bioware. And I haven't seen his definition used yet. You guys are getting your hair up for nothing.
I'm not concerned about DA4. I'm just saying that GaaS are different than Live service games in general.
perhaps. Though I hope the difference is arbitrary otherwise I might get a headache.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 17, 2019 20:29:23 GMT
Casey Hudson already told us what Live Service means for Bioware. And I haven't seen his definition used yet. You guys are getting your hair up for nothing. You probably should repost that definition if you're gonna bring it up. Anthem is a live service game regardless of whatever Hudson said. One of the guys that talked about how the game was moving from episodes to seasonal updates had the title 'Head of Live Services' lol
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Oct 17, 2019 20:33:59 GMT
The tweet in question, for those interested:
Casey Hudson @caseydhudson
Reading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused.
Too early to talk details, but when we talk about “live” it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2019 20:52:54 GMT
The tweet in question, for those interested: Casey Hudson @caseydhudson Reading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about “live” it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story. thank you. Was going to go hunting when I had the time...now I don't have to.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2019 21:37:16 GMT
The tweet in question, for those interested: Casey Hudson @caseydhudsonReading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about “live” it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story. Was this tweet before or after they scrapped their original plans, though?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2019 21:41:59 GMT
The tweet in question, for those interested: Casey Hudson @caseydhudsonReading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about “live” it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story. Was this tweet before or after they scrapped their original plans, though? For DA 4? About ninety percent sure its after since its Casey making the tweet and as far as I know they only scrapped the plans for the 'original' DA 4 after he was rehired. (actually I get the feeling he might've done the 'scrapping')
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Oct 17, 2019 22:05:46 GMT
The tweet in question, for those interested: Casey Hudson @caseydhudsonReading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about “live” it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story. Was this tweet before or after they scrapped their original plans, though? Tweeted on Jan 25, 2018.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2019 22:15:02 GMT
Was this tweet before or after they scrapped their original plans, though? Tweeted on Jan 25, 2018. later then I remembered, lol.
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Post by revelationeffect on Oct 17, 2019 23:12:49 GMT
Honestly GaaS is just a buzzword, if you ask five different people they’ll probably have three different opinions on what it concretely means. It seems overwhelmingly likely that they’ll be taking cues from AC odyssey, which had fairly unintrusive live service components. They’ve repeatedly said the game isn’t going to be Anthem with Dragons like I’ve seen people repeatedly say. DA4 has by far the best chances out of any game BioWare has produced since DAI due to being a direct sequel with some sense of direction, helmed by writers who have worked with the franchise previously. I think the odds of a clusterfuck like Anthem or MEA is pretty unlikely since in both cases the main issue there was them farting around aimlessly for like three years. It's not a buzzword it's a business model. They just took the concept of software as a service (SaaS) and applied it to video games. Where Microsoft for example used to only sell you a disk with a license code that you owned forever, they started offering Office 365. Pay a small subscription, use it on any computer, but now it's recurring revenue as opposed to one time, and more money over the long run. No matter how the five people want to describe it, it all boils down in the end to long term recurring revenue as opposed to one time. Now instead of buying a game, getting a key, finishing it and moving on to the next one. They either charge you subscription to play it, or they give it you for free, and create a game with really no ending that you'll play continually for years while buying things from the store to supplement what they gave you in the base game, producing long term revenue instead of just getting it one time up front. So any SP game with a true ending wouldn't really fall into this category because they're not designed to keep people playing it continually for years. That's why I said DA4 would need to be like Anthem. Minimal initial content, and the story is episodic over a long period of time. It's highly doubtful that DA4 will be like this. I figure it will be like ME2. Depending on the reception, some story content DLCs, with some small microtransactions thrown in. All those gun packs, armor skins, and other little stuff Bioware was selling were microtransactions to me. Bioware isn't new to this. My point is that it does not mean a specific thing beyond the vague definition you already supplied. It can look like anything from a multiplayer component that receives updates a la ME3/DAI/MEA to Anthem/Destiny style online games to the model AC odyssey had, so proclaiming doom for DA4 because it’s had the word thrown around in conjunction with it, especially given what the devs have said on the subject, is incredibly premature and a knee-jerk reaction to something that probably won’t be a huge deal and will likely amount to a daily-refreshing ingame store/daily quests and little bits of story content being added over the course of months after its release.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 17, 2019 23:24:28 GMT
In EA's defense, wasnt it Bioware that choose to go the multilayer/GaaS route with Anthem? What would a non-MP/GaaS Anthem even be?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 17, 2019 23:56:56 GMT
In EA's defense, wasnt it Bioware that choose to go the multilayer/GaaS route with Anthem? What would a non-MP/GaaS Anthem even be? Odyssey.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 18, 2019 0:19:33 GMT
What would a non-MP/GaaS Anthem even be? Odyssey.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 18, 2019 0:21:29 GMT
As constant as the Northern Star, Hanako.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 18, 2019 0:54:44 GMT
In EA's defense, wasnt it Bioware that choose to go the multilayer/GaaS route with Anthem? What would a non-MP/GaaS Anthem even be? A SP experience with party members and cinematic storytelling with dialogue options. You know, like all other Bioware games (excluding SWTOR).
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 18, 2019 1:54:48 GMT
I just want to make a comment on the prior page where people were talking about how BioWare needs to talk about the game sooner rather then later. My belief is this is a result of what happened with Inquisition and how people reacted when thing were removed from the game after BioWare talked about it. I think that is the driving factor which how secretive they have been since then for they don't want all kinds of negative comments the first day of launch of content people felt they were going to get because BioWare talked about it. If we handled those changes better I think there is a good chance that they would still talk more about their games, but it seems the only time they talk about anything is when the game feature goes into finished status and will be there without any alterations. Since players anymore are jumping to conclusions based on one or two sentances about any game I don't think its a wise move and yes there probably will be some consequence, but I think that consequence is far less then if people feel BioWare mislead them when it was something during development that changed.
Even other developers are being really cautious about what they show and when anymore because they don't want the backlash of something not being in the game or not living up to players expectations that they develop because they heard something about the game and imagined what it would be like. So having a working demonstration of what will be in the game seems to be the best way to educate players. Now with Andromeda I think BioWare was put on a spot to announce it as early as they did and I think its the same with the next Dragon Age game. For they only have officially said they were working on the games after it was reported that they had started development so they pretty much said the minimum in that they were developing those games.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 18, 2019 2:39:00 GMT
What would a non-MP/GaaS Anthem even be? A SP experience with party members and cinematic storytelling with dialogue options. You know, like all other Bioware games (excluding SWTOR). But Anthem wasn't ever going to be that kind of a game in the first place, was it? Unless "Anthem" is just shorthand for "whatever Bio ships after ME:A."
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 18, 2019 4:22:28 GMT
I just want to make a comment on the prior page where people were talking about how BioWare needs to talk about the game sooner rather then later. My belief is this is a result of what happened with Inquisition and how people reacted when thing were removed from the game after BioWare talked about it. I think that is the driving factor which how secretive they have been since then for they don't want all kinds of negative comments the first day of launch of content people felt they were going to get because BioWare talked about it. If we handled those changes better I think there is a good chance that they would still talk more about their games, but it seems the only time they talk about anything is when the game feature goes into finished status and will be there without any alterations. Since players anymore are jumping to conclusions based on one or two sentances about any game I don't think its a wise move and yes there probably will be some consequence, but I think that consequence is far less then if people feel BioWare mislead them when it was something during development that changed. Even other developers are being really cautious about what they show and when anymore because they don't want the backlash of something not being in the game or not living up to players expectations that they develop because they heard something about the game and imagined what it would be like. So having a working demonstration of what will be in the game seems to be the best way to educate players. Now with Andromeda I think BioWare was put on a spot to announce it as early as they did and I think its the same with the next Dragon Age game. For they only have officially said they were working on the games after it was reported that they had started development so they pretty much said the minimum in that they were developing those games. Bioware should refrain from giving away details of gameplay features because that is always subject to change. However what they should reveal is the direction and theme of the game. Is it purely SP with a MP element like ME3/DAI/MEA? Or is it mainly online/coop that could also be played SP like Anthem?
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