Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 18, 2019 5:57:51 GMT
I just want to make a comment on the prior page where people were talking about how BioWare needs to talk about the game sooner rather then later. My belief is this is a result of what happened with Inquisition and how people reacted when thing were removed from the game after BioWare talked about it. I think that is the driving factor which how secretive they have been since then for they don't want all kinds of negative comments the first day of launch of content people felt they were going to get because BioWare talked about it. If we handled those changes better I think there is a good chance that they would still talk more about their games, but it seems the only time they talk about anything is when the game feature goes into finished status and will be there without any alterations. Since players anymore are jumping to conclusions based on one or two sentances about any game I don't think its a wise move and yes there probably will be some consequence, but I think that consequence is far less then if people feel BioWare mislead them when it was something during development that changed. Even other developers are being really cautious about what they show and when anymore because they don't want the backlash of something not being in the game or not living up to players expectations that they develop because they heard something about the game and imagined what it would be like. So having a working demonstration of what will be in the game seems to be the best way to educate players. Now with Andromeda I think BioWare was put on a spot to announce it as early as they did and I think its the same with the next Dragon Age game. For they only have officially said they were working on the games after it was reported that they had started development so they pretty much said the minimum in that they were developing those games. Bioware should refrain from giving away details of gameplay features because that is always subject to change. However what they should reveal is the direction and theme of the game. Is it purely SP with a MP element like ME3/DAI/MEA? Or is it mainly online/coop that could also be played SP like Anthem? Would the people that want to know actually believe BioWare if they were to reveal that? With Anthem BioWare said they were not putting in lootboxes and would only have MTX cosemetics and it was met with nothing but skepticism and "we don't believe you". Not to mention those elements still could change during development since everything I have been reading the game is still in very early development. I am taking this from Kotaku, but I think its the closest to anything firm that we will see, but I think it gives a decent answer to what BioWare is planning. Its a combination of what Casey Hudson has said in Twitter and what I think sources have told Jason Schreier. It at least gives us what Casey Husdon is thinking when he speaks about it be a Live game.
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Post by cypherj on Oct 18, 2019 11:24:48 GMT
Bioware should refrain from giving away details of gameplay features because that is always subject to change. However what they should reveal is the direction and theme of the game. Is it purely SP with a MP element like ME3/DAI/MEA? Or is it mainly online/coop that could also be played SP like Anthem? Would the people that want to know actually believe BioWare if they were to reveal that? With Anthem BioWare said they were not putting in lootboxes and would only have MTX cosemetics and it was met with nothing but skepticism and "we don't believe you". Not to mention those elements still could change during development since everything I have been reading the game is still in very early development.
EA came out early and said Jedi Fallen Order would be a single player game with no MTX or loot boxes. Irony of this being a selling point for EA aside, people pretty much took them at their word, and it looks like they stuck to it. These kind of things are very high level and would not be something that changed during development. We're not talking about gameplay elements here. I'm pretty sure DA4 will not be as clean a game when it comes to this as Jedi Fallen Order, no MTX, no Lootboxes, no MP, (We can only hope it is) but they could offer up some high level idea. That's assuming they even know how far they're going to go with it at this point.
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Frost
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Frost on Oct 18, 2019 11:57:31 GMT
Bioware should refrain from giving away details of gameplay features because that is always subject to change. However what they should reveal is the direction and theme of the game. Is it purely SP with a MP element like ME3/DAI/MEA? Or is it mainly online/coop that could also be played SP like Anthem? Would the people that want to know actually believe BioWare if they were to reveal that? With Anthem BioWare said they were not putting in lootboxes and would only have MTX cosemetics and it was met with nothing but skepticism and "we don't believe you". Not to mention those elements still could change during development since everything I have been reading the game is still in very early development. I am taking this from Kotaku, but I think its the closest to anything firm that we will see, but I think it gives a decent answer to what BioWare is planning. Its a combination of what Casey Hudson has said in Twitter and what I think sources have told Jason Schreier. It at least gives us what Casey Husdon is thinking when he speaks about it be a Live game. If, like Jedi Fallen Order, they said the game is single player with no mtx, I would believe them. However, saying something is story & character focused doesn't say anything about multiplayer or mtx. Also, I got burned by Casey's ME3 multiplayer statements, so I am more skeptical about that now, especially if the wording he uses is ambiguous.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 18, 2019 18:19:55 GMT
I'm curious how successful and how much of a money maker JFO is. I'm certainly not getting it at launch...whereas I just got a MTX infested live service game at launch and I'm enjoying the heck out of it...mostly.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 18, 2019 22:01:34 GMT
Would the people that want to know actually believe BioWare if they were to reveal that? With Anthem BioWare said they were not putting in lootboxes and would only have MTX cosemetics and it was met with nothing but skepticism and "we don't believe you". Not to mention those elements still could change during development since everything I have been reading the game is still in very early development.
EA came out early and said Jedi Fallen Order would be a single player game with no MTX or loot boxes. Irony of this being a selling point for EA aside, people pretty much took them at their word, and it looks like they stuck to it. These kind of things are very high level and would not be something that changed during development. We're not talking about gameplay elements here. I'm pretty sure DA4 will not be as clean a game when it comes to this as Jedi Fallen Order, no MTX, no Lootboxes, no MP, (We can only hope it is) but they could offer up some high level idea. That's assuming they even know how far they're going to go with it at this point.
Right, but they didn't for Andromeda or Anthem with BioWare. People seem to think that BioWare has always caved to EA when its come to MTX or lootboxes and won't believe anything people from BioWare say.
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Frost
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Frost on Oct 19, 2019 0:36:45 GMT
I'm curious how successful and how much of a money maker JFO is. I'm certainly not getting it at launch...whereas I just got a MTX infested live service game at launch and I'm enjoying the heck out of it...mostly. Everyone has different tastes. The mtx infested live service game you got likely would not interest me at all. Also, in general I am not looking for a game that makes the most possible money that any game can make. That is not my definition of success, and I hope that is not the only type of game Bioware will now make.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2019 0:47:55 GMT
I'm curious how successful and how much of a money maker JFO is. I'm certainly not getting it at launch...whereas I just got a MTX infested live service game at launch and I'm enjoying the heck out of it...mostly. Everyone has different tastes. The mtx infested live service game you got likely would not interest me at all. Also, in general I am not looking for a game that makes the most possible money that any game can make. That is not my definition of success, and I hope that is not the only type of game Bioware will now make.
its not the only definition of success, but given the budgets of typical games it is an important one to consider. As far as MTX is concerned they are optional and getting more optional all the time. And again it's a win win because these companies need to make quality games for us to enjoy them.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 22, 2019 17:08:47 GMT
So to steer this back on topic with all that being said, how does Bioware look to games like Witcher and Last of Us to compete quality wise? While this community would do it's best to downplay it, outside of this community it is widely known that Witcher 3 has made a positive impact in the industry and somewhat of an industry standard when it comes to open world gameplay, characters, narrative and mature storytelling. We see developers praise Naughty Dog for Uncharted/Last of Us cause they up the game for everyone else thus making the industry better. Bioware used to be in that same boat. Circa 2007 Bioware was held in high regard within the industry. Games like NWN, BG and KOTOR were are cornerstones in the industry and ME1 was just releasing which had a great influence that even games such as Horizon and Cyberpunk 2077 were inspired by. Especially in terms of cinematic storytelling through player choice. While Bioware games never sold the same way an Uncharted game would, they were still quality games and would always be strong contenders in the RPG GOTY debates. DAI sold well and won many awards, but unfortunately TW3 came out about 7 months later and took things things to another level. Why is it you never see developers use DAI as a benchmark to reach but you see that with Skyrim or TW3? And lets not even get started with MEA and Anthem. Hell, what all star who worked on DAI is still around working on DA4? Mike Laidlaw left, David Gaider (person who made the world) left and Fernando Melo left. The game has been rebooted to focus more on live service stuff. So now Bioware is focused on quantity and not quality? One outlier being GTA5/RDR2 - Horizon - Last of Us - TW3 - Breath of the Wild Were all great games that sold well and got great review scores. And yet none of them relies on live service techniques as their aim is to make singular quality games. Why can't Bioware take this approach? Ghost Recon Breakpoint is being torn apart because it moves away from what made it unique in order to capitalize on the live service crap. Bioware is NOT in a good position now in terms of reputation with their 2 previous games being flops and DAI success being overshadowed by TW3 which came out shortly after DAI. When DA4 drops the sharks will be circling. What avenue with DA4 take that will put Bioware back into the conversation of quality developers and DA4 into the RPG GOTY like Bioware circa 2007? Exactly.
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Post by scalt on Oct 23, 2019 9:56:53 GMT
Hey folks, my first post here after years of stalking and sry in advance for my english. While there is much to be desired as quality from bioware games i think comparisons between them and mentioned games aren't fair. Both witcher, zelda, horizon and others games are the only franchises from studios working on them and also most of them are platform exclusives. After that, all of them have preset PC, locked behind gender,race and play style with almost zero customization and nothing close to BW games companions and LI. I guess the answer of the OP question is yes if: BW delete all other of their franchises(ME, SWTOR, Anthem) and leave only DA with all the ppl on it, make it ps5 exclusive, make it with preset PC with no customization and no companions and romances. I think the only area BW is lacking is their management. They have a lot of talent in all areas just need to be managed in the right way.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2019 14:19:42 GMT
Hey folks, my first post here after years of stalking and sry in advance for my english. While there is much to be desired as quality from bioware games i think comparisons between them and mentioned games aren't fair. Both witcher, zelda, horizon and others games are the only franchises from studios working on them and also most of them are platform exclusives. After that, all of them have preset PC, locked behind gender,race and play style with almost zero customization and nothing close to BW games companions and LI. I guess the answer of the OP question is yes if: BW delete all other of their franchises(ME, SWTOR, Anthem) and leave only DA with all the ppl on it, make it ps5 exclusive, make it with preset PC with no customization and no companions and romances. I think the only area BW is lacking is their management. They have a lot of talent in all areas just need to be managed in the right way. While I do understand your point, Bioware is not working on their games alone. For Andromeda, in fact, Montreal had support from Edmonton, DICE, Ghost Games and either Criterion or Motive.
I don't know how much better the writing, for example, would be, but I do understand sacrifices needed to be made, to accommodate the various interactions. I think Tyranny, that is a very, uh, reactive, I suppose is the word for it, game makes huge concessions to its writing quality, in order to accommodate the variety of choices available to you. Anthem, on the other hand, didn't need to make such concessions and, well, it didn't exactly benefit from that. But Anthem is also the, probably, most mismanaged Bioware game out there, so there is also a lot of truth and insight to your words. I would very much like a more transparent approach of communication from Bioware, leading to the launch of DA4, so that we can see how thing progress, or regress, in development, so we could get a better grasp of Bioware's inner workings.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Prime Likes: 882
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 23, 2019 14:25:09 GMT
Hey folks, my first post here after years of stalking and sry in advance for my english. While there is much to be desired as quality from bioware games i think comparisons between them and mentioned games aren't fair. Both witcher, zelda, horizon and others games are the only franchises from studios working on them and also most of them are platform exclusives. After that, all of them have preset PC, locked behind gender,race and play style with almost zero customization and nothing close to BW games companions and LI. I guess the answer of the OP question is yes if: BW delete all other of their franchises(ME, SWTOR, Anthem) and leave only DA with all the ppl on it, make it ps5 exclusive, make it with preset PC with no customization and no companions and romances. I think the only area BW is lacking is their management. They have a lot of talent in all areas just need to be managed in the right way. While I do understand your point, Bioware is not working on their games alone. For Andromeda, in fact, Montreal had support from Edmonton, DICE, Ghost Games and either Criterion or Motive.
I don't know how much better the writing, for example, would be, but I do understand sacrifices needed to be made, to accommodate the various interactions. I think Tyranny, that is a very, uh, reactive, I suppose is the word for it, game makes huge concessions to its writing quality, in order to accommodate the variety of choices available to you. Anthem, on the other hand, didn't need to make such concessions and, well, it didn't exactly benefit from that. But Anthem is also the, probably, most mismanaged Bioware game out there, so there is also a lot of truth and insight to your words. I would very much like a more transparent approach of communication from Bioware, leading to the launch of DA4, so that we can see how thing progress, or regress, in development, so we could get a better grasp of Bioware's inner workings.
The online community has proven they cannot handle transparency from BioWare. They just go to a corner and complain they aren't getting what they wanted and how dare BioWare do what they don't want them to do.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2019 15:07:55 GMT
The online community has proven they cannot handle transparency from BioWare. They just go to a corner and complain they aren't getting what they wanted and how dare BioWare do what they don't want them to do. Well, I mean, if by transparency you mean what happened with Anthem, you can't show the 2017 E3 footage and then release the game in the state that it was. All of the 2017 footage was fabricated and was, supposedly *in game footage*. That's not very transparent. That's outright lying.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 23, 2019 15:23:08 GMT
The online community has proven they cannot handle transparency from BioWare. They just go to a corner and complain they aren't getting what they wanted and how dare BioWare do what they don't want them to do. Well, I mean, if by transparency you mean what happened with Anthem, you can't show the 2017 E3 footage and then release the game in the state that it was. All of the 2017 footage was fabricated and was, supposedly *in game footage*. That's not very transparent. That's outright lying. I am talking more about how people develop opinions on what BioWare releases and not trailers so something like how people were talking when BioWare said they weren't going to have lootboxes, but instead have a microtransaction system for cosmetic items that could be also earned just playing the game. For to me transparency isn't just releasing fancy videos, but talking about the systems and how they plan to monetize the game which doesn't always need anything more then a statement of what they plan on doing.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 23, 2019 17:08:55 GMT
Live service games are constantly changing. So what they INTEND to do in the immediate future is meaningless. Look at Bethesda saying FO76's MTX would stay cosmetic. Took them less than a year to introduce convenience items...
Did they lie before release about it? Probably not. Things change and money talks.
To Bioware's credit, they've stuck so far to their MTX statement. Given the current AAA situation that's quite a bit deal. Something positive to associate with the studio and the game.
But in general, I don't trust a word of what anybody says about a live service game and have no interest in playing one.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 23, 2019 21:05:25 GMT
Live service games are constantly changing. So what they INTEND to do in the immediate future is meaningless. Look at Bethesda saying FO76's MTX would stay cosmetic. Took them less than a year to introduce convenience items... Did they lie before release about it? Probably not. Things change and money talks. To Bioware's credit, they've stuck so far to their MTX statement. Given the current AAA situation that's quite a bit deal. Something positive to associate with the studio and the game. But in general, I don't trust a word of what anybody says about a live service game and have no interest in playing one. You're right, this is one potential problem with the 'genre' and it seems some companies have officially jumped the shark on this...so the fear is justified now. But at the end of the day not every company rips off or borderline lies to its consumers. And at the end of the day as long as the content presented in the game is worth it...then its going to be worth it no matter what a company does as far as MTX is concerned. THough in the wake of the Bethesda announcement this has suddenlly become a lot harder to defend lol.
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Post by mugwump on Oct 24, 2019 0:27:16 GMT
Colfoley, the degree to which these games are designed to fleece their player base is the degree to which they are not worth our time and money. Come on now.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2019 6:57:45 GMT
Colfoley, the degree to which these games are designed to fleece their player base is the degree to which they are not worth our time and money. Come on now. it may be a tired line but fun games and quality products make money. That is the first goal of any publisher/ developer.
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Post by saandrig on Oct 24, 2019 7:47:38 GMT
The online community has proven they cannot handle transparency from BioWare. They just go to a corner and complain they aren't getting what they wanted and how dare BioWare do what they don't want them to do. You should be aware that by this point "Bioware transparency" is a meme for "lying in your face". Mostly due to Anthem, but MEA and SWTOR also contributed.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 24, 2019 14:27:36 GMT
Well, I mean, if by transparency you mean what happened with Anthem, you can't show the 2017 E3 footage and then release the game in the state that it was. All of the 2017 footage was fabricated and was, supposedly *in game footage*. That's not very transparent. That's outright lying. I am talking more about how people develop opinions on what BioWare releases and not trailers so something like how people were talking when BioWare said they weren't going to have lootboxes, but instead have a microtransaction system for cosmetic items that could be also earned just playing the game. For to me transparency isn't just releasing fancy videos, but talking about the systems and how they plan to monetize the game which doesn't always need anything more then a statement of what they plan on doing. I think it is the gaming industry as a whole that has garnered such mistrust, I think. And EA is one of the two biggest offenders. As usual, the MTX implementation is not up to the hand of the developer, but more so the publisher. But Andrew Wilson and Bobby Kotick aren't the community managers that engage with the audience, so the distrust and contempt gets inevitably dropped on the people tasked with receiving those insults. I've been on the receiving end of that stick and I can tell you, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, but that's the job. As much as we cry about toxicity and gamer entitlement, that's the community manager's job as well as everyone under them.
Do you think Blizzard's forums aren't aflame with Blizzard's continuous missteps the past year? Or the Blizzard subreddit? Things there are far worse than anything Bioware faced. Blizzard didn't burn their forums and drop their reddit to go hide under mama Activision's wing for shelter. At least not yet. Deciding to cut ties with your community is not a viable tactic once, let alone twice.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 24, 2019 15:08:14 GMT
it may be a tired line but fun games and quality products make money. That is the first goal of any publisher/ developer. While that is true, certain monetization models do askew the grind to the point that "time savers" are a thing. Imagine having to pay so as to not play a game. And while an argument can be made in favour of the people that simply don't have the time to play, you could just do away with the grind. It is, after all, an artificial limit.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2019 18:15:35 GMT
it may be a tired line but fun games and quality products make money. That is the first goal of any publisher/ developer. While that is true, certain monetization models do askew the grind to the point that "time savers" are a thing. Imagine having to pay so as to not play a game. And while an argument can be made in favour of the people that simply don't have the time to play, you could just do away with the grind. It is, after all, an artificial limit. 1. All games have grind to them. 2. Again these options are entirely optional and depend on a whole host of factors that are up to the individual gamer. In the two (three?) games they've been in I haven't even been remotely tempted to use them. One of them I even classed as 'perhaps the least grindiest game I've ever played'. They are there simply to save time on something and to get a specific something done faster...the negativity towards them is sad, typical and annoying when game companies give in.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 24, 2019 18:21:36 GMT
1. All games have grind to them. Tell me about it. Spent years on Lineage 2. What the fuck was I doing with my life? 2. Again these options are entirely optional and depend on a whole host of factors that are up to the individual gamer. In the two (three?) games they've been in I haven't even been remotely tempted to use them. One of them I even classed as 'perhaps the least grindiest game I've ever played'. They are there simply to save time on something and to gry a specific something done faster...the negativity towards them is sad, typical and annoying when game companies give in. In some cases, like with CoD, for example, you can get time savers, that grant you more in-game currency over a period of time, so that you can open more lootboxes. Since this has nothing to do with character progression, but only a speed up to get help you get weapons, which you do need in order to be competitive online, that is an entirely artificial grind. I don't mind XP grinds. I did plenty of them back in the day. I max leveled 3 of my mates saves to lvl 99 at Final Fantasy 7. And then I did my own. Fuck, what have I been doing with my life.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2019 18:25:34 GMT
1. All games have grind to them. Tell me about it. Spent years on Lineage 2. What the fuck was I doing with my life? 2. Again these options are entirely optional and depend on a whole host of factors that are up to the individual gamer. In the two (three?) games they've been in I haven't even been remotely tempted to use them. One of them I even classed as 'perhaps the least grindiest game I've ever played'. They are there simply to save time on something and to gry a specific something done faster...the negativity towards them is sad, typical and annoying when game companies give in. In some cases, like with CoD, for example, you can get time savers, that grant you more in-game currency over a period of time, so that you can open more lootboxes. Since this has nothing to do with character progression, but only a speed up to get help you get weapons, which you do need in order to be competitive online, that is an entirely artificial grind. I don't mind XP grinds. I did plenty of them back in the day. I max leveled 3 of my mates saves to lvl 99 at Final Fantasy 7. And then I did my own. Fuck, what have I been doing with my life. TBF i haven't touched CoD since MW 3. Also don't like competitive mp so I doubt I'll ever experience *that*, but on the face of it I can see pros and cons.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 24, 2019 23:26:49 GMT
The online community has proven they cannot handle transparency from BioWare. They just go to a corner and complain they aren't getting what they wanted and how dare BioWare do what they don't want them to do. Well, I mean, if by transparency you mean what happened with Anthem, you can't show the 2017 E3 footage and then release the game in the state that it was. All of the 2017 footage was fabricated and was, supposedly *in game footage*. That's not very transparent. That's outright lying. Was it actually outright fabricated? ME1 also had a demo reel full of stuff that wasn't in the released game, but the stuff was real.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by revelationeffect on Oct 25, 2019 0:22:50 GMT
Well, I mean, if by transparency you mean what happened with Anthem, you can't show the 2017 E3 footage and then release the game in the state that it was. All of the 2017 footage was fabricated and was, supposedly *in game footage*. That's not very transparent. That's outright lying. Was it actually outright fabricated? ME1 also had a demo reel full of stuff that wasn't in the released game, but the stuff was real. Given what I know of Anthem’s development the devs were probably aware that much of it might not be in the final release, but it was likely indicative of what little direction they had at the time.
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