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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 10, 2019 8:46:48 GMT
Yeah, no kidding. I could never wrap my head around why BioWare didn't just include a ship weapon battery room on the Tempest. Having a unarmed ship, in a possible hostile galaxy, is totally bonkers. Then you wind up with all the issues the Normandy... a frigate that apparently can't even use its guns to save itself from a single frickin' ship. The Allaince apparently couldn't think its weapons systems through very well either. Putting them on Normandy the way they did was a total waste of computing resources... and what was Garrus actually callibrating when the guns couldn't move to aim anyways.
I'm sure they'll add them to Tempest (if we're getting a continuation of ME:A), but I hope this time around they put some actual thought into the design.
I'm not fussed about the crew beds on Tempest. It's a ship with a very small crew and it showed us 4 crew beds with 8 crew... so 2 sleep shifts was absolutely possible (although I still think if they're going to say their using hot bunking, there should be evidence that there are 2 shifts working... times when half the crew are asleep. The SR1 though, only showed 8 sleeping pods and had a much larger crew implied. The SR2;s spreading of fancy beds and then reclining seats and cots all over the place was just silly. Really, they could just as easily add in an implied entire sleeping deck that the PC just never goes to again after the first tour of the ship.
That's another thing that bugged me about Mass Effect... Why the hell didn't their ships have broadside and rear weapons? You'd think that warships would have weapons covering every angle for taking down hostile ships. As I said before, Mass Effect is weird....
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 10, 2019 9:15:22 GMT
Yeah, no kidding. I could never wrap my head around why BioWare didn't just include a ship weapon battery room on the Tempest. Having a unarmed ship, in a possible hostile galaxy, is totally bonkers. Then you wind up with all the issues of the Normandy... a frigate that apparently can't even use its guns to save itself from a single frickin' ship. The Allaince apparently couldn't think its weapons systems through very well either. Putting them on Normandy the way they did was a total waste of computing resources... and what was Garrus actually callibrating when the guns couldn't move to aim anyways.
I'm sure they'll add them to Tempest (if we're getting a continuation of ME:A), but I hope this time around they put some actual thought into the design.
I'm not fussed about the crew beds on Tempest. It's a ship with a very small crew and it showed us 4 crew beds with 8 crew... so 2 sleep shifts was absolutely possible (although I still think if they're going to say their using hot bunking, there should be evidence that there are 2 shifts working... times when half the crew are asleep). I'm OK with the doc sleeping in the med bay and the PC having their own quarters, although they should be less luxurious. The premise in ME:A is that PeeBee, Drack and Liam outright reject the "hot bunking" protocol and work out their own sleeping arrangements instead. Jaal apparently does the same.
The SR1 though, only showed 8 sleeping pods and had a much larger crew implied (most survived, but 20 died in the crash). The SR2's spreading of fancy beds and then reclining seats and cots all over the place was just silly and a larger waste of space than the Tempest really, which at least got rid of the huge empty observation lounges on both sides of the ship and replaced them with research labs. Really, they could just as easily add in an implied entire sleeping deck that the PC just never goes to again after the first tour of the ship. At least we didn't have NPC's with perfectly good beds insisting on making out in the engine room this time around.
Hah, some good points! It's probably best to enjoy the Normandy and the Tempest for what they are - stylish ships that serve as your home base - without putting too much thought into whether they're actually designed in a practical or "realistic" way. Now that you mention it, I always wondered what all those people where doing at their rows of consoles anyway when apparently Joker took care of all the important things. I'm absolutely fine with having a crew deck that is inaccessible to the PC (the elevator could just always skip that deck). But I still want my gun turret just for the sake of logic, and a much smaller personal cabin.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 9:26:18 GMT
Then you wind up with all the issues of the Normandy... a frigate that apparently can't even use its guns to save itself from a single frickin' ship. The Allaince apparently couldn't think its weapons systems through very well either. Putting them on Normandy the way they did was a total waste of computing resources... and what was Garrus actually callibrating when the guns couldn't move to aim anyways.
I'm sure they'll add them to Tempest (if we're getting a continuation of ME:A), but I hope this time around they put some actual thought into the design.
I'm not fussed about the crew beds on Tempest. It's a ship with a very small crew and it showed us 4 crew beds with 8 crew... so 2 sleep shifts was absolutely possible (although I still think if they're going to say their using hot bunking, there should be evidence that there are 2 shifts working... times when half the crew are asleep). I'm OK with the doc sleeping in the med bay and the PC having their own quarters, although they should be less luxurious. The premise in ME:A is that PeeBee, Drack and Liam outright reject the "hot bunking" protocol and work out their own sleeping arrangements instead. Jaal apparently does the same.
The SR1 though, only showed 8 sleeping pods and had a much larger crew implied (most survived, but 20 died in the crash). The SR2's spreading of fancy beds and then reclining seats and cots all over the place was just silly and a larger waste of space than the Tempest really, which at least got rid of the huge empty observation lounges on both sides of the ship and replaced them with research labs. Really, they could just as easily add in an implied entire sleeping deck that the PC just never goes to again after the first tour of the ship. At least we didn't have NPC's with perfectly good beds insisting on making out in the engine room this time around.
Hah, some good points! It's probably best to enjoy the Normandy and the Tempest for what they are - stylish ships that serve as your home base - without putting too much thought into whether they're actually designed in a practical or "realistic" way. Now that you mention it, I always wondered what all those people where doing at their rows of consoles anyway when apparently Joker took care of all the important things. I'm absolutely fine with having a crew deck that is inaccessible to the PC (the elevator could just always skip that deck). But I still want my gun turret just for the sake of logic, and a much smaller personal cabin. I would not really care about a gun turret (so WWII), but evidence of a ton of smaller missile launchers that could be aimed or swiveled as needed or ports built onto the exterior of the ship (since firing control would be likely remote - from the bridge or directly from the CIC and the missiles themselves would be guided).
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 10, 2019 9:43:36 GMT
I would not really care about a gun turret (so WWII), but evidence of a ton of smaller missile launchers that could be aimed or swiveled as needed or ports built onto the exterior of the ship (since firing control would be likely remote - from the bridge or directly from the CIC). I wasn't thinking of a manned turret with two Browning MGs or some such , more of an AI/remote controlled unmanned turret placed on the top and/or bottom of the fuselage for a 360° degrees field of fire. Something not too big but still effective. Not sure where the WWII association came from.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 9:52:20 GMT
Sometimes it's better to forego weapons and use the energy and lower mass for a faster ship.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 9:54:45 GMT
I would not really care about a gun turret (so WWII), but evidence of a ton of smaller missile launchers that could be aimed or swiveled as needed or ports built onto the exterior of the ship (since firing control would be likely remote - from the bridge or directly from the CIC). I wasn't thinking of a manned turret with two Browning MGs or some such , more of an AI/remote controlled unmanned turret placed on the top and/or bottom of the fuselage for a 360° degrees field of fire. Something not too big but still effective. Not sure where the WWII association came from. I'm mostly being facetious. Regular cannon don't make much sense in space. We had the "Newton's Law" lecture in ME2 after all. I would expect that, by that point in time, everything would be rockets and, most likely, guided rockets... which don't require a turret at all to be fired... just a port door that opens up to allow the rocket to launch. If they want to put a 360 turret on top of the ship, it wouldn't bother me. A turret underneath though would probably be really good at taking out their own engines... given the design shape of the vessel.
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 10, 2019 10:05:00 GMT
I wasn't thinking of a manned turret with two Browning MGs or some such , more of an AI/remote controlled unmanned turret placed on the top and/or bottom of the fuselage for a 360° degrees field of fire. Something not too big but still effective. Not sure where the WWII association came from. I'm mostly being facetious. Regular cannon don't make much sense in space. We had the "Newton's Law" lecture in ME2 after all. I would expect that, by that point in time, everything would be rockets and, most likely, guided rockets... which don't require a turret at all to be fired... just a port door that opens up to allow the rocket to launch. If they want to put a 360 turret on top of the ship, it wouldn't bother me. A turret underneath though would probably be really good at taking out their own engines... given the design shape of the vessel. Ah yes, I wouldn't want projectile weapons either. I was thinking of the GARDIAN lasers mentioned in the codex, i.e. automated energy weapon turrets. The Normandy SR1 had them (you can pick up the codex entry at its gunnery station I think) even though I don't recall ever seeing them in action. Maybe the Tempest had them too and no one ever mentioned it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 10, 2019 10:11:35 GMT
I'm mostly being facetious. Regular cannon don't make much sense in space. We had the "Newton's Law" lecture in ME2 after all. I would expect that, by that point in time, everything would be rockets and, most likely, guided rockets... which don't require a turret at all to be fired... just a port door that opens up to allow the rocket to launch. If they want to put a 360 turret on top of the ship, it wouldn't bother me. A turret underneath though would probably be really good at taking out their own engines... given the design shape of the vessel. Ah yes, I wouldn't want projectile weapons either. I was thinking of the GARDIAN lasers mentioned in the codex, i.e. automated energy weapon turrets. The Normandy SR1 had them (you can pick up the codex entry at its gunnery station I think) even though I don't recall ever seeing them in action. Maybe the Tempest had them too and no one ever mentioned it. Aren't those Guardian lasers for defence only? (they don't seem very powerful when they were firing at the Collector ship on Horizon...)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 10:17:11 GMT
I'm mostly being facetious. Regular cannon don't make much sense in space. We had the "Newton's Law" lecture in ME2 after all. I would expect that, by that point in time, everything would be rockets and, most likely, guided rockets... which don't require a turret at all to be fired... just a port door that opens up to allow the rocket to launch. If they want to put a 360 turret on top of the ship, it wouldn't bother me. A turret underneath though would probably be really good at taking out their own engines... given the design shape of the vessel. Ah yes, I wouldn't want projectile weapons either. I was thinking of the GARDIAN lasers mentioned in the codex, i.e. automated energy weapon turrets. The Normandy SR1 had them (you can pick up the codex entry at its gunnery station I think) even though I don't recall ever seeing them in action. Maybe the Tempest had them too and no one ever mentioned it. Except that Cora opens her mouth and expressly says that Tempest is unarmed. Right up until that line, they could have had hidden ports on the ship that could be opened to reveal armaments of some type that were just not previously visible. Yes, a laser would make more sense than a projectile weapon... at least for close-range defense. I would envision that some sort of guided missile that generates its own propulsion through the use of a mass effect field (small version of the engines the propel the ship) would make sense to have been developed in the MEU.
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 10, 2019 10:20:03 GMT
Ah yes, I wouldn't want projectile weapons either. I was thinking of the GARDIAN lasers mentioned in the codex, i.e. automated energy weapon turrets. The Normandy SR1 had them (you can pick up the codex entry at its gunnery station I think) even though I don't recall ever seeing them in action. Maybe the Tempest had them too and no one ever mentioned it. Aren't those Guardian lasers for defence only? (they don't seem very powerful when they were firing at the Collector ship on Horizon...) Well yes, they are meant to shoot down incoming missiles and enemy fighters and wouldn't do much against larger vessels. Still a good defense against anything that's fast enough to make a nuisance of itself before you haul ass to FTL speed, at which point according to the codex you should be safe. I wouldn't expect an explorer ship to take on a combat vessel of its own size anyway, but I'd expect it to have some basic defenses.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:21:21 GMT
Ah yes, I wouldn't want projectile weapons either. I was thinking of the GARDIAN lasers mentioned in the codex, i.e. automated energy weapon turrets. The Normandy SR1 had them (you can pick up the codex entry at its gunnery station I think) even though I don't recall ever seeing them in action. Maybe the Tempest had them too and no one ever mentioned it. Except that Cora opens her mouth and expressly says that Tempest is unarmed. Right up until that line, they could have had hidden ports on the ship that could be opened to reveal armaments of some type that were just not previously visible. Yes, a laser would make more sense than a projectile weapon... at least for close-range defense. I would envision that some sort of guided missile that generates its own propulsion through the use of a mass effect field (small version of the engines the propel the ship) would make sense to have been developed in the MEU. Not a good idea to have a weapon in a foreign galaxy with no way to restock the advanced munition it uses.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:23:00 GMT
Ah yes, I wouldn't want projectile weapons either. I was thinking of the GARDIAN lasers mentioned in the codex, i.e. automated energy weapon turrets. The Normandy SR1 had them (you can pick up the codex entry at its gunnery station I think) even though I don't recall ever seeing them in action. Maybe the Tempest had them too and no one ever mentioned it. Aren't those Guardian lasers for defence only? (they don't seem very powerful when they were firing at the Collector ship on Horizon...) IIRC it's basically point defence system.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 10, 2019 10:28:46 GMT
Aren't those Guardian lasers for defence only? (they don't seem very powerful when they were firing at the Collector ship on Horizon...) IIRC it's basically point defence system. Lol, those Reapers would be inking their pants if they faced an Imperial Navy or a Space Marine fleet. Laser weapons are common in the Imperium.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 10:31:13 GMT
Except that Cora opens her mouth and expressly says that Tempest is unarmed. Right up until that line, they could have had hidden ports on the ship that could be opened to reveal armaments of some type that were just not previously visible. Yes, a laser would make more sense than a projectile weapon... at least for close-range defense. I would envision that some sort of guided missile that generates its own propulsion through the use of a mass effect field (small version of the engines the propel the ship) would make sense to have been developed in the MEU. Not a good idea to have a weapon in a foreign galaxy with no way to restock the advanced munition it uses. ... which could explain why Ryder wouldn't have gone to using it right away against the Archon. Of course, the goal for the Initiative would be to eventually build a facility on a planet to manufacture additional munitions. Blueprints and parts for such a facility could have been stored on the Nexus and the people with the knowledge could have been in cryo.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:32:16 GMT
IIRC it's basically point defence system. Lol, those Reapers would be inking their pants if they faced an Imperial Navy or a Space Marine fleet. Laser weapons are common in the Imperium. The point defense was due to the doctrine to attack with numbers of torpedo bombers as Alliance doctrine, not for attacking capital ships.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:36:05 GMT
Not a good idea to have a weapon in a foreign galaxy with no way to restock the advanced munition it uses. ... which could explain why Ryder wouldn't have gone to using it right away against the Archon. Of course, the goal for the Initiative would be to eventually build a facility on a planet to manufacture additional munitions. Blueprints and parts for such a facility could have been stored on the Nexus and the people with the knowledge could have been in cryo. A lot of handwaving to keep an essential craft of the whole initiative operational. Simple kinetic weapons and lasers would be much more sustainable. Apart from the extra targeting, safe storage, handling, maintenance, crew requirements, energy requirements, space, firing arc specs and whathaveyou.
Sure you can bolt a gun on a fish cutter - but it's likely to cause more harm than effect on the enemy.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 10, 2019 10:36:11 GMT
Lol, those Reapers would be inking their pants if they faced an Imperial Navy or a Space Marine fleet. Laser weapons are common in the Imperium. The point defense was due to the doctrine to attack with numbers of torpedo bombers as Alliance doctrine, not for attacking capital ships. I just find it funny that they never invented offensive laser weapons in all that time they claimed that Mass Effect tech was the Bees Knees.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 10:38:57 GMT
... which could explain why Ryder wouldn't have gone to using it right away against the Archon. Of course, the goal for the Initiative would be to eventually build a facility on a planet to manufacture additional munitions. Blueprints and parts for such a facility could have been stored on the Nexus and the people with the knowledge could have been in cryo. A lot of handwaving to keep an essential craft of the whole initiative operational. Simple kinetic weapons and lasers would be much more sustainable. Apart from the extra targeting, safe storage, handling, maintenance, crew requirements, energy requirements, space, firing arc specs and whathaveyou.
Sure you can bolt a gun on a fish cutter - but it's likely to cause more harm than effect on the enemy.
... and a few lasers is no defense against a spaceship firing guided weaponry at you from, say, a light year away. The appearance and function of weapons in the MEU is based on very archaic principles - gun-barrel design, when weaponry by that point in time probably won't require gun-barrel design to function... but it's what gamers are conditioned to view/appreciate as being "guns."
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:41:00 GMT
The point defense was due to the doctrine to attack with numbers of torpedo bombers as Alliance doctrine, not for attacking capital ships. I just find it funny that they never invented offensive laser weapons in all that time they claimed that Mass Effect tech was the Bees Knees. Lasers dissipate quite quickly in energy. The big guns were kinetic in Mass effect, I think.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:43:13 GMT
A lot of handwaving to keep an essential craft of the whole initiative operational. Simple kinetic weapons and lasers would be much more sustainable. Apart from the extra targeting, safe storage, handling, maintenance, crew requirements, energy requirements, space, firing arc specs and whathaveyou.
Sure you can bolt a gun on a fish cutter - but it's likely to cause more harm than effect on the enemy.
... and a few laser is no defense against a spaceship firing guided weaponry at you from, say, a light year away. It is when you have big arrays dedicated to it. With good reactors. Or use stealth and speed to drop the lock-on or entirely avoid being detected. Like the Normandy.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 10, 2019 10:48:31 GMT
I just find it funny that they never invented offensive laser weapons in all that time they claimed that Mass Effect tech was the Bees Knees. Lasers dissipate quite quickly in energy. The big guns were kinetic in Mass effect, I think. I think it depends on what energy you use. (I forget what the ME universe uses as its main power source, besides Ezo).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 10:49:27 GMT
... and a few laser is no defense against a spaceship firing guided weaponry at you from, say, a light year away. It is when you have big arrays dedicated to it. With good reactors. Or use stealth and speed to drop the lock-on or entirely avoid being detected. Like the Normandy. Why does a GUARDIAN laser need a long gun barrel in the first place? Do you realize how silly Ashley sounded when she's talking about bombs being "dropped" from orbit?
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:55:35 GMT
Lasers dissipate quite quickly in energy. The big guns were kinetic in Mass effect, I think. I think it depends on what energy you use. (I forget what the ME universe uses as its main power source, besides Ezo). It's mostly wavelength and power I think. Whereas a kinetic accelerator is troubled by accuracy and travel time. It's a tradeoff - kinetic weapons bring more bang for the energy invested. Unless you handwave some magic super energy source and energy conversion tech / heat dissipation solution. In any case - you either build a low profile ship with little emissions and then you won't put high energy stuff on it because that just doesnt fly with the original purpose or you go full blazing guns, which isnt really what ME was about - except for the ground combat as special operative.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 10, 2019 10:58:34 GMT
It is when you have big arrays dedicated to it. With good reactors. Or use stealth and speed to drop the lock-on or entirely avoid being detected. Like the Normandy. Why does a GUARDIAN laser need a long gun barrel in the first place? Do you realize how silly Ashley sounded when she's talking about bombs being "dropped" from orbit? It isnt silly at all. We orbit and go pro and retrograde because it's the most fuel efficient way to move orbits. It's perfectly viably to accelerate directly at the planet to land at a planetary impact point given enough acceleration. You'd need bombs that resist re-entry (only on atmospheric planets).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2019 11:02:58 GMT
Why does a GUARDIAN laser need a long gun barrel in the first place? Do you realize how silly Ashley sounded when she's talking about bombs being "dropped" from orbit? It isnt silly at all. We orbit and go pro and retrograde because it's the most fuel efficient way to move orbits. It's perfectly viably to accelerate directly at the planet to land at a planetary impact point given enough acceleration. You'd need bombs that resist re-entry (only on atmospheric planets). I don't think the space station has bomb bay doors that would just open and drop bombs on the planet. Why would an advanced society adopt such a principle? What they fire and how they fire it is likely going to be guided in more invisible ways. Heck, even the laser turrets in FO4 are mere little globes with eyes... no gun barrels evident there. Why does ME2 need a barrel on a cannon that encroaches halfway into the ship and is located right next to the frickin' med bay?
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