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Post by x19dude95 on Sept 2, 2019 22:22:27 GMT
''In the real world, people die. And no self-promoting asshole in a fucking leotard can stop it. This is Ice Cream for bed wetters.''
I want more weight to the story but I'm not going to kill them off on my own. Feels stupid to do that.
Like Biowear. Are you trying to making emotional Stories what will make me cry like you say you want to? Or do you want to make a Disney film?
The top quote was from Logan BTW.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 2, 2019 22:30:19 GMT
Considering the amount of character deaths in Disney films these days...
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on Sept 2, 2019 22:51:02 GMT
Considering the amount of character deaths in Disney films these days... these days? putting aside the fact that in the majority of disney films the bad guy dies, and purely speaking of characters related to the main characters in some way; do you consider movies like, mulan, lion king, pochahontas or say, bambi (from the 40's) to be "these days"? xD okay, back to OP. i totally agree on the notion of killing off a character like a companion without you being able to stop it. heck, doesn't have to be a companion, imagine a game in which the main character's (namely, yours) mother would die, without you being able to stop it? oh wait... i guess bioware are like disney on that regard.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 2, 2019 22:54:41 GMT
Considering the amount of character deaths in Disney films these days... these days? putting aside the fact that in the majority of disney films the bad guy dies, and purely speaking of characters related to the main characters in some way; do you consider movies like, mulan, lion king, pochahontas or say, bambi (from the 40's) to be "these days"? xD no. . Just using that for reference. I've always found the 'Disney movie trope' a bit of a misnomer.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Sept 2, 2019 23:07:42 GMT
I think there should be opportunities where, if you make a particular decision, it could inevitably lead to the death of a major character(s); maybe even yours. And while I don't think this particular example should occur more than once in a playthrough, I do think there's some added weight behind having to choose between who lives and dies in an unavoidable situation. "Sunshine and rainbows" scenarios shouldn't exist across the entirety of your playthrough - in my mind - as it calls into question whether the stakes were as high as the game presents; or if your choices really had that much of an impact.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2019 23:21:21 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Sept 2, 2019 23:26:56 GMT
Oh I missed the 'in the squad' part the first time, then yeah...my answer is a no.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 2, 2019 23:34:22 GMT
I'm kind of glad it's not like Origins, where you could straight-up murder everyone but Morrigan (though you can shank her in Witch Hunt). That makes it difficult for the writers to bring back characters if they want to for plot reasons without people freaking out about retcons. I prefer meaningful plot deaths and the occasional Mhairi moment.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2019 23:35:33 GMT
I'm kind of glad it's not like Origins, where you could straight-up murder everyone but Morrigan (though you can shank her in Witch Hunt). That makes it difficult for the writers to bring back characters if they want to for plot reasons without people freaking out about retcons. I prefer meaningful plot deaths and the occasional Mhairi moment. No more Mhairi moments! She was the only companion in Awakening I liked!
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 2, 2019 23:42:27 GMT
Is the question DA-specific? This is more of a ME thing.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 3, 2019 0:22:51 GMT
I'm kind of glad it's not like Origins, where you could straight-up murder everyone but Morrigan (though you can shank her in Witch Hunt). That makes it difficult for the writers to bring back characters if they want to for plot reasons without people freaking out about retcons. I prefer meaningful plot deaths and the occasional Mhairi moment. No more Mhairi moments! She was the only companion in Awakening I liked! Call them Daveth moments then, idk.
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cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on Sept 3, 2019 1:17:04 GMT
I'm kind of glad it's not like Origins, where you could straight-up murder everyone but Morrigan (though you can shank her in Witch Hunt). That makes it difficult for the writers to bring back characters if they want to for plot reasons without people freaking out about retcons. I prefer meaningful plot deaths and the occasional Mhairi moment. The Mhairi death was very well done. It just shows if things are done correctly, deaths can have impact even if they're not one of the main character. I really thought she was going to be a party member for the game. She had an approval scale and everything, never saw it coming. Obviously the Kaiden/Ashley death was powerful. The thing of late is that some of the deaths in games weren't set up well so they feel flat. Your sibling in DA2 for example. Even Alec in ME:A. Neither was setup the way Mhairi's was, and she was just some random character you met. I don't mind deaths, main character or otherwise, I just don't want them thrown in for the sake of killing someone in the attempt to make something darker.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2019 1:22:13 GMT
I'm kind of glad it's not like Origins, where you could straight-up murder everyone but Morrigan (though you can shank her in Witch Hunt). That makes it difficult for the writers to bring back characters if they want to for plot reasons without people freaking out about retcons. I prefer meaningful plot deaths and the occasional Mhairi moment. The Mhairi death was very well done. It just shows if things are done correctly, deaths can have impact even if they're not one of the main character. I really thought she was going to be a party member for the game. She had an approval scale and everything, never saw it coming. Obviously the Kaiden/Ashley death was powerful. The thing of late is that some of the deaths in games weren't set up well so they feel flat. Your sibling in DA2 for example. Even Alec in ME:A. Neither was setup the way Mhairi's was, and she was just some random character you met. I don't mind deaths, main character or otherwise, I just don't want them thrown in for the sake of killing someone in the attempt to make something darker. Neither of those examples of being used good were powerful. The Ash/Kaidan one was completely idiotic, and the Mhairi one is the reason why I have a lot less DAA playthroughs than DAO: I skip it. Ironic that you liked them since they were exactly for the reason you don’t like them doing it.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 3, 2019 1:23:20 GMT
I'm kind of glad it's not like Origins, where you could straight-up murder everyone but Morrigan (though you can shank her in Witch Hunt). That makes it difficult for the writers to bring back characters if they want to for plot reasons without people freaking out about retcons. I prefer meaningful plot deaths and the occasional Mhairi moment. The Mhairi death was very well done. It just shows if things are done correctly, deaths can have impact even if they're not one of the main character. I really thought she was going to be a party member for the game. She had an approval scale and everything, never saw it coming. Obviously the Kaiden/Ashley death was powerful. The thing of late is that some of the deaths in games weren't set up well so they feel flat. Your sibling in DA2 for example. Even Alec in ME:A. Neither was setup the way Mhairi's was, and she was just some random character you met. I don't mind deaths, main character or otherwise, I just don't want them thrown in for the sake of killing someone in the attempt to make something darker. I agree. Random deaths are alright because, hey, death isn't always conveniently plot-relevant but when you're the omniscient narrator you've got to think of what will have the biggest impact on the story and the player. Even if it is an early unexpected death like Daveth, Jory, etc. I did think the sibling's second possible death in the Deep Roads was well done. Contracting the Taint and needing to have a Grey Warden nearby to survive was a realistic consequence of going into the Deep Roads, and Carver's/Bethany's dying speech hit me in the feels.
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cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on Sept 3, 2019 3:06:19 GMT
The Mhairi death was very well done. It just shows if things are done correctly, deaths can have impact even if they're not one of the main character. I really thought she was going to be a party member for the game. She had an approval scale and everything, never saw it coming. Obviously the Kaiden/Ashley death was powerful. The thing of late is that some of the deaths in games weren't set up well so they feel flat. Your sibling in DA2 for example. Even Alec in ME:A. Neither was setup the way Mhairi's was, and she was just some random character you met. I don't mind deaths, main character or otherwise, I just don't want them thrown in for the sake of killing someone in the attempt to make something darker. I agree. Random deaths are alright because, hey, death isn't always conveniently plot-relevant but when you're the omniscient narrator you've got to think of what will have the biggest impact on the story and the player. Even if it is an early unexpected death like Daveth, Jory, etc. I did think the sibling's second possible death in the Deep Roads was well done. Contracting the Taint and needing to have a Grey Warden nearby to survive was a realistic consequence of going into the Deep Roads, and Carver's/Bethany's dying speech hit me in the feels. I was more talking about the first siblings death due to nothing more than the job you chose without hardly any dialogue or relationship building. I actually didn't have a sibling die in the dead roads. Had everything but. Turned into a Grey Warden, taken by the Templars, taken to the circle.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 3, 2019 3:22:25 GMT
I'm kind of glad it's not like Origins, where you could straight-up murder everyone but Morrigan (though you can shank her in Witch Hunt). That makes it difficult for the writers to bring back characters if they want to for plot reasons without people freaking out about retcons. I prefer meaningful plot deaths and the occasional Mhairi moment. The Mhairi death was very well done. It just shows if things are done correctly, deaths can have impact even if they're not one of the main character. I really thought she was going to be a party member for the game. She had an approval scale and everything, never saw it coming. Obviously the Kaiden/Ashley death was powerful. The thing of late is that some of the deaths in games weren't set up well so they feel flat. Your sibling in DA2 for example. Even Alec in ME:A. Neither was setup the way Mhairi's was, and she was just some random character you met. I don't mind deaths, main character or otherwise, I just don't want them thrown in for the sake of killing someone in the attempt to make something darker. Mhari's death wasn't set up really other then the fact we *knew* it was going to happen because she was a redshirt and it is a rather horrible way to go. Alec's death was much better done (imo)
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 3, 2019 3:41:13 GMT
I agree. Random deaths are alright because, hey, death isn't always conveniently plot-relevant but when you're the omniscient narrator you've got to think of what will have the biggest impact on the story and the player. Even if it is an early unexpected death like Daveth, Jory, etc. I did think the sibling's second possible death in the Deep Roads was well done. Contracting the Taint and needing to have a Grey Warden nearby to survive was a realistic consequence of going into the Deep Roads, and Carver's/Bethany's dying speech hit me in the feels. I was more talking about the first siblings death due to nothing more than the job you chose without hardly any dialogue or relationship building. I actually didn't have a sibling die in the dead roads. Had everything but. Turned into a Grey Warden, taken by the Templars, taken to the circle. Oh, I know you meant the sudden death-by-ogre. I was just using the second potential death as an example of good writing. No one's ever died in the Deep Roads on my playthroughs - but I've seen it on YouTube.
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helios969
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Sept 3, 2019 7:26:49 GMT
These sorts of things seem so arbitrary. Let's kill off more companions. Why? More emotive...more realistic. If the story necessitates it then fine, but don't just do it for the sake of doing it.
Plus, I could see how this would go around here. Why'd it have to be companion A who was my personal favorite...f*cking companion B was a stupid writer's pet.
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Gileadan
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 3, 2019 7:44:44 GMT
The game should be full of hidden variables based on your decisions and gameplay (i.e. when did you do which quest, which hidden side objectives did you discover and complete, how many enemies escaped from a major battle etc.) to determine who lives and dies at certain moments. As long as we play a new protagonist in each game, as few characters as possible should return for the sequels, so most of them should be fair game.
Unavoidable deaths should be kept to a minimum though - paying attention and playing well should be rewarded with more or even all of your squad surviving while breezing obliviously through the main story should lead to a worse outcome.
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on Sept 3, 2019 8:10:28 GMT
Unavoidable deaths should be kept to a minimum though - paying attention and playing well should be rewarded with more or even all of your squad surviving while breezing obliviously through the main story should lead to a worse outcome. I could live with that. Albeit simplistic, I liked that ME2 could have the full spectrum of everyone surviving to no one...
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 3, 2019 8:28:59 GMT
Well in general unavoidable deaths are fine so long as they make sense and serve a purpose in the story.
When it comes to companions, I don't know about the idea of a full ( not temporary) companion having an unavoidable death, maybe if it really made sense for their story arc (not arbitrarily done for shock value), but otherwise i think i prefer conditional deaths for companions.
Deaths that have worked for me in the past make sense as a result of your actions, felt natural, narratively satisfying.
Like your sibling catching the Taint if you take them to the deeproads, Iron Bull attacking you if you don't make him tal Vashoth, and Alistair making the ultimate sacrifice to save your warden if you romanced him.
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coldsteelblue
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
PSN: coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on Sept 3, 2019 9:07:36 GMT
I went with yes, but, as it has been mentioned several times above, make it meaningful, also, don't use it all the time, otherwise it gets predictable. To me possibly the best example to use is the Kaiden/Ash scenario, one of them is going to die, & it's up to you to choose, not only does this hammer home the burdens of command, but by that point, you've had a large section of the game to get to know them, making the choice more impactful. The IB scenario is another that I liked, hit me like a freight train, as he was actually in my party at the time All in all, yes, but don't make it a trope. My thoughts.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 3, 2019 10:01:20 GMT
It depends on whether I feel the death is contrived or not. To explain:
The Kaiden/Ashley choice felt contrived to me. You can only save one and there was no way to avoid the situation arising. I dislike that sort of thing because it makes me feel emotionally manipulated so my reaction is not as genuine as it might be. It was a similar situation with your mother in DA2. It actually didn't matter what you did or how quickly you got there, your mother always dies. I never understood how she was even able to talk with us at the end since I thought the whole point was that the guy had only wanted one bit of her to use to make up the whole, so surely she had died long before we got there.
By contrast the potential deaths of crew members at the end of ME2 during the suicide mission was entirely down to the choices I had made both to upgrade my ship and who I chose to undertake certain roles. As it happened, I got it right first time without any meta-knowledge but I definitely picked up on the fact that I could have got it wrong. I was understandably elated that I didn't.
Similarly, the choices you have at the end of DAO. I knew as soon as Riorden said that a warden must sacrifice themselves to kill the arch-demon that he wasn't going to make it and so it would be a choice between me and Alistair. Then Morrigan makes her tempting offer and when I turned her down I did it in full knowledge that it would likely me the death of my PC. So every step fighting across Denerim seemed to be one step closer to my demise, only for Alistair to talk me out of it. That ending put me through the emotional wringer but it didn't feel contrived and so my response was genuine.
DAI didn't really have any instances of your choices really impacting on your squad members apart from Hawke/warden character, which was another case of it feeling contrived to me since the amount of time spent arguing over who should stay we could all have followed the others out of the Fade. Our choices could make squad members leave but nothing could potentially get them killed until Trespasser and Iron Bull, which is something that should have been obvious would be the outcome eventually of our decision back in the main game. There was also Blackwall but whilst you could decide whether he lived or died, it was not something you had control over in your previous actions.
I'd always thought that upgrading Skyhold or not was going to be significant to whether my entire inner circle survived the final encounter with Corypheus, so it was extremely disappointing to discover it was nothing more than cosmetic.
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cypherj
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on Sept 3, 2019 10:25:02 GMT
The Mhairi death was very well done. It just shows if things are done correctly, deaths can have impact even if they're not one of the main character. I really thought she was going to be a party member for the game. She had an approval scale and everything, never saw it coming. Obviously the Kaiden/Ashley death was powerful. The thing of late is that some of the deaths in games weren't set up well so they feel flat. Your sibling in DA2 for example. Even Alec in ME:A. Neither was setup the way Mhairi's was, and she was just some random character you met. I don't mind deaths, main character or otherwise, I just don't want them thrown in for the sake of killing someone in the attempt to make something darker. Neither of those examples of being used good were powerful. The Ash/Kaidan one was completely idiotic, and the Mhairi one is the reason why I have a lot less DAA playthroughs than DAO: I skip it. Ironic that you liked them since they were exactly for the reason you don’t like them doing it. Mhairi was hardly just thrown in. She was built up like a fully fleshed out character, most people probably thought that she was going to be a party member the entire game. So when she died it reminded the player that the joining was not a guarantee, and in doing that the player didn't know who for the rest of that scene or if who you met the rest was going to pass the joining. The death had a purpose. It wasn't just thrown in like your sibling's death at the beginning of DA2.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2019 10:39:51 GMT
Neither of those examples of being used good were powerful. The Ash/Kaidan one was completely idiotic, and the Mhairi one is the reason why I have a lot less DAA playthroughs than DAO: I skip it. Ironic that you liked them since they were exactly for the reason you don’t like them doing it. Mhairi was hardly just thrown in. She was built up like a fully fleshed out character, most people probably thought that she was going to be a party member the entire game. So when she died it reminded the player that the joining was not a guarantee, and in doing that the player didn't know who for the rest of that scene or if who you met the rest was going to pass the joining. The death had a purpose. It wasn't just thrown in like your sibling's death at the beginning of DA2. You can make an excuse that any death has a purpose thus needed to be in. Doesn’t make it any less garbage or actually needed.
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