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Post by biggydx on Sept 15, 2019 0:20:33 GMT
A lot of times, romance serves as a supplement to the Hero's Journey many of BioWare's games follow (and many other RPG's). But for BioWare in particular, romance options have become a quintessential part of a majority of their games. It's so baked into their games, that fans would actually grow irritated if they were removed. Romancing, especially in the Dragon Age games, is a key part of why some fans even continue to play the franchise. Patrick Weekes (I believe) has even joked about the franchise being a romance simulator with an end-of-the-world scenario tacked on.
All that being said, I wonder if continuing to have romance options in their game ultimately pigeonholds them into always having to design characters a specific way for them to be a possible romance option. Would there games truly be less than simply by not having the ability to romance someone? God of War is an example of a well-paced story that tells a good tale, without the need for Kratos having to bang Freya or some other female god. For me, I don't particularly need an RPG to have romance options because what largely draws me in is the sense of exploration and the allure of "what comes next?". I know that's not the case for others, however, and now its seen as a faux pas if your game is a Western RPG without any romance options; or at least an established one.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 15, 2019 0:46:25 GMT
Different writers have expressed some regret in the past that it is such a HUGE thing (at least, I recall someone saying this, and I want to say it was Gaider, but I don't have a source soooo take that for what you will), but yeah... it's very important to me. Always has been - even before I realized there were "official" romances in Neverwinter Nights, I found myself wishing they were there. (And whaddyaknow, turns out they were! Just not with the characters I expected. My enjoyment of the game increased tenfold.)
I'm not one for the romance genre by itself, but I absolutely love a romance arc in my RPGs. It's part of the reason I come back to the same games again and again and again; I know where all the loot is and can quote every soundbite, but I'm so attached to this or that character (not just romances) that I want relive that experience over and over. And I cannot stress this enough, but it's soooooo nice to be able to create gay or bi heroes and have choices - actual choices! Like any other person! So often you see LGBT folks as side characters, if they appear at all. We don't really get stories where we're the heroes and love interests in fantasy/scifi/cyberpunk, etc. LGBT is often considered it's own genre and is largely limited to, like.... soap opera style shows/movies set in the boring-ass real world. Or reality TV. You don't get to be a gay dwarf in love with an elf or a gay human in love with an alien or a gay wizard throwing fireballs at orcs. There aren't shows or movies about that. There's just vidya games (and a handful of comic book characters the majority of people have never heard of).
ANYWAY. The devs have said before that they create the characters first, and then think "who among these should have a romance arc?" (plus consideration for time and money constraints) and go from there. Regardless of whether other people feel like it's necessary, I definitely do. Or at least I'm disappointed when there are no romances or they're a letdown.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 15, 2019 0:53:42 GMT
If they didn't have gay romances, I wouldn't buy their boring games, so if they regret taking my money, then they are welcome to shut down.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 15, 2019 0:58:44 GMT
If they didn't have gay romances, I wouldn't buy their boring games, so if they regret taking my money, then they are welcome to shut down. Surely you aren't this desperate for self validation.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 15, 2019 0:59:57 GMT
Also, lol at your terrible example. God of War is not an rpg, for starters, and the plot is all about Kratos and his son fulfilling the last wishes of Kratos's WIFE. The game makes it extremely clear AT THE VERY START that Kratos is a gold-star hetero who loves the ladies.
And you know what? Given all the fucking he did in EVERY PREVIOUS INSTALMENT OF THE SERIES, they hardly deserve any prizes now for giving his dick a rest.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 15, 2019 1:01:16 GMT
If they didn't have gay romances, I wouldn't buy their boring games, so if they regret taking my money, then they are welcome to shut down. Surely you aren't this desperate for self validation. Here's a thought: address the actual topic of the thread, and don't ever talk to me again.
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Post by githcheater on Sept 15, 2019 1:51:51 GMT
I obliviously first played Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights without realizing romances were part of the games. That said, I have enjoyed Dragon Age romances, but their inclusion is of secondary importance to me. However, I believe the quality of the romances has decreased with each DA game. I loved all four romances in DAO, loved the Isabela romance in DA2, but have only been mildly interested in a few DAI romances.
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Post by Masque on Sept 15, 2019 2:33:59 GMT
I can't speak for BioWare but I'm guessing the inevitable fallout from designing/writing LIs would be a bit.. frustrating? Disheartening? Every time a game with romances drops, there's always a flood of people complaining because there are not enough x, y or z romance options. And then there's the complaints over their looks, their beliefs, their *insert complaint here*. It's impossible to please everyone and romances are something that players are very vocal about.
I like the romances. (I'm still wallowing in Solavellan hell over here.) They're a nice way to take a step back from the actual campaign and often times a romance will reveal a bit more depth of character pertaining to that LI. That being said, going no romance is okay too. I had no interest in any of the potential LIs in MEA so I didn't bother, and it didn't impact my playthrough.
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Post by Blaze on Sept 15, 2019 3:23:21 GMT
it shouldn't be a big deal, for me it never was. as nice as romance is, that's not the point of the game, it's an extra added feature. if there is romance, it should be meaningful (unlike say, skyrim or fable) otherwise to option to romance is a bit pointless. for me as long as you get to connect to the characters, as long as the characters are meaningful with backgrounds, interactions, and relationship developed, doesn't matter if you romance them or not.
to illustrate this: my shepard never romanced anyone, literally no companion was her type personality-wise. maybe liara, but my shepard not into girls (years later, it occurred to me, that joker technically is her type, but she never saw him like that; he was like her little brother). but she still formed bonds with her team, still loved all of them, even if some less than others.
romance never make a game, as long as you have meaningful interaction with your companions that's what matters. if there is romance, it should be done in a meaningful way, to the story and the interaction itself; not the generic "okay we are together now". thankfully that never been an issue in any dragon age game so far. heck, i was really impressed with inquisition for both having as many romance options as they did as well as providing them with the most elaborate side stories than previous games. also, i generally oppose the "why can't we romance everyone" notion. 1) because it comes with the way of making the romance meaningful story-wise and 2) because what if they aren't interested?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 15, 2019 4:41:28 GMT
it shouldn't be a big deal, for me it never was. as nice as romance is, that's not the point of the game, it's an extra added feature. if there is romance, it should be meaningful (unlike say, skyrim or fable) otherwise to option to romance is a bit pointless. for me as long as you get to connect to the characters, as long as the characters are meaningful with backgrounds, interactions, and relationship developed, doesn't matter if you romance them or not. to illustrate this: my shepard never romanced anyone, literally no companion was her type personality-wise. maybe liara, but my shepard not into girls (years later, it occurred to me, that joker technically is her type, but she never saw him like that; he was like her little brother). but she still formed bonds with her team, still loved all of them, even if some less than others. romance never make a game, as long as you have meaningful interaction with your companions that's what matters. if there is romance, it should be done in a meaningful way, to the story and the interaction itself; not the generic "okay we are together now". thankfully that never been an issue in any dragon age game so far. heck, i was really impressed with inquisition for both having as many romance options as they did as well as providing them with the most elaborate side stories than previous games. also, i generally oppose the "why can't we romance everyone" notion. 1) because it comes with the way of making the romance meaningful story-wise and 2) because what if they aren't interested? What IS the point of the game, then? Because I thought the point of games was to have fun, and I have fun when I get to play a gay hero who has fantasy adventurers with his boyfriend. And why shouldn't there be romances? Because those resources could have gone to something someone else would have liked instead? That's true of everything all the time. Race choice resources COULD HAVE gone to a base-building feature. War table resources COULD HAVE gone to a tower defense minigame. Class choice could have gone to quicktime events, party members could have been scrapped in favour of pre-rendered cutscenes. Hell, the resources for the entire game COULD HAVE gone to another FIFA or Madden. Also, just as an aside, saying "But what if the FICTIONAL CHARACTER just ISN'T INTO YOU?" makes you sound insane. Haha.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 15, 2019 8:31:46 GMT
I remember more than one BioWare writer expressing regret about it at some point or other. I don't mind their existence, it's not that the few extra lines and animations and the roleplaying opportunity they represent make the game worse in any way.
An unfortunate side effect is the weird cult that sprung from them. I remember the first days in the Pillars of Eternity forum, just at the beginning of actual development, where a bunch of BioWare fans kept obnoxiously demanding that romances be added to the game or else. The Mass Effect romance wars where people defended their pixel squeezes to the last man and the last round, metaphorically speaking.
No romances would mean less roleplaying opportunities, but it would likely save us a lot of forum ugliness.
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Post by TabithaTH on Sept 15, 2019 12:43:05 GMT
Honestly, I feel more like Bioware have made it more difficult for other companies to implement romances. If a game says it has romances, I have come to expect a certain quality/amount of content in order to feel like they delivered what they promised. That being said, I do not need a ton of romanceable characters, as long as there's at least one I really like.
The problem as I see it, is that companion interaction in general has become a big part of their games. When you interact with companions on such a personal level, you can't help but develop bonds with them (be it romantic, friendly or as a rival). So if there isn't a romance option for a specific character you like, it becomes frustrating. I've recently replayed NWN2, and I always get so annoyed, exactly because the two characters I like the most are not romanceable.
By now I would probably be disappointed if they didn't have romances in any DA title. I'd probably also accept no romances in any ME spin-off. I think the MET romances are meaty enough to last me a lifetime in regards to that franchise. (I do admit that MEA was made more tolerable because of them, but that's a problem with the gameplay, not the fact that the romances added something extra. Also, the friendships with the rest of the crew was on about the same level).
However, if they make any new IP's without romances, I would still give it a try if it looked like a game I would like.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Sept 15, 2019 13:59:38 GMT
No romances would mean less roleplaying opportunities, but it would likely save us a lot of forum ugliness. You're assuming the romance fans would go away, instead of just hanging around complaining about the absence of romances. When has that ever been true? (Of any group of fans after BioWare remove a thing they liked, not just hypothetically disappointed romance fans.) Anyway, the thing I really love about the romances is indeed the wealth of roleplaying opportunities. I don't personally care for romance except insofar as it illustrates and supports characterisation. (For either the character I made or for characters someone else made.) So in theory I'd be just as happy if they took them out and put in something else that allowed for just as much roleplaying. In practice, though, I can never figure out what that something would actually be. No other type of intimate relationship has the same choice element there is in romance, and I think that's a lot of what it makes it appealing from a roleplaying perspective. It says something about her that my Cadash romanced Blackwall instead of Josephine, or that my Adaar chose Dorian over Iron Bull. Even if they provided open and/or poly relationships some day, that would still be a choice you could make for your character. By contrast, it only makes sense that your protagonist can be friends with multiple members of their squad, and of course you don't get to pick who your family members are. (Unless they introduced some kind of complex optional adoption dynamic. Which seems even more fraught than romances.)
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Post by Iakus on Sept 15, 2019 14:49:36 GMT
I think any regret should not be that romances are in the game, but that they have become such an important focus.
As has been said before, romances are a good opportunity to roleplay. They add personality to characters, and make for a fine addition for side-quests.
But fans have become, let's face it, entitled. They demand graphic sex scenes, they demand more and more romance options, they demand weddings, they demand certain romanceable characters: dwarves, elves, quarians, AIs, etc. They demand that this character be gay, this one be straight, this one be bi, and so on.
As a result, more and more zots have to be sunk into a portion of the game that not everyone even cares about, rather than just keeping it a fun little bit of SIDE content.
Edit: And don't get me wrong, I LIKE romances, and want to see them continue to be put into games. But they shouldn't be the huge focus they have become.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 15, 2019 15:17:58 GMT
I don't think they ever thought they'd become as big as they did. I don't think they thought they would morph from optional side content to being not only required by some players, but required in a certain way. It seemed some people were more worried about who was romanceable than the actual story of the game. It just got more and more out of hand with each game.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 15, 2019 15:20:16 GMT
These topics usually end up with a bunch of straight people going '' what a sad human being you are, a pathetic excuse for a person, for needing your games to have gay romances? You piece of lowlife trash, how dare you require this? I DON'T NEED IT, I DON'T WANT IT, SO WHY DO YOU? Do you really need a GAME to VALIDATE your EXISTENCE? How pathetic, how sad. '' I'd be fine with no romances if it still meant that there were tons of gay romances amongst the NPCs. But honestly, the only reason I started playing Dragon Age was because of the gay romances, and if they take them away I don't think I'd have much of a reason to continue playing.
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Post by Steelcan on Sept 15, 2019 15:42:18 GMT
I don't think they ever thought they'd become as big as they did. I don't think they thought they would morph from optional side content to being not only required by some players, but required in a certain way. It seemed some people were more worried about who was romanceable than the actual story of the game. It just got more and more out of hand with each game. I think this is why they scrapped romances for Anthem entirely tbh
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 15, 2019 15:56:17 GMT
I don't think they ever thought they'd become as big as they did. I don't think they thought they would morph from optional side content to being not only required by some players, but required in a certain way. It seemed some people were more worried about who was romanceable than the actual story of the game. It just got more and more out of hand with each game. If people are more interested in the romances than the story, what does that say about the story.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 15, 2019 16:03:48 GMT
Meh, it adds depth to a game so why not continue to place them? It's a staple in Bioware games and it's part of the reason why they have a dedicated fanbase. I'm sure Bioware is weirded out by some of the fan's habits in regards to shipping but to be honest it's no different to other franchises.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 15, 2019 16:04:18 GMT
I don't think they ever thought they'd become as big as they did. I don't think they thought they would morph from optional side content to being not only required by some players, but required in a certain way. It seemed some people were more worried about who was romanceable than the actual story of the game. It just got more and more out of hand with each game. I think this is why they scrapped romances for Anthem entirely tbh Figured considering it was the first game they had a canonically ace character with Brin.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 15, 2019 16:06:31 GMT
As for the topic, I wouldn’t say they regret it. While some may, others have expressed how glad they are they did for a variety of reasons, from simply enjoying making the content to being touched by the impact they have on the lives of the people who loved them.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 15, 2019 16:09:59 GMT
Meh, it adds depth to a game so why not continue to place them? It's a staple in Bioware games and it's part of the reason why they have a dedicated fanbase. I'm sure Bioware is weirded out by some of the fan's habits in regards to shipping but to be honest it's no different to other franchises. I don't even think Dragon Age fanbase is that creepy, bad or obsessive, all things considered.
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Post by biggydx on Sept 15, 2019 16:14:46 GMT
These topics usually end up with a bunch of straight people going '' what a sad human being you are, a pathetic excuse for a person, for needing your games to have gay romances? You piece of lowlife trash, how dare you require this? I DON'T NEED IT, I DON'T WANT IT, SO WHY DO YOU? Do you really need a GAME to VALIDATE your EXISTENCE? How pathetic, how sad. '' I'd be fine with no romances if it still meant that there were tons of gay romances amongst the NPCs. But honestly, the only reason I started playing Dragon Age was because of the gay romances, and if they take them away I don't think I'd have much of a reason to continue playing. I'm not bothered by its inclusion, or the sexual orientation options available. Part of what made me bring up this topic up was Patricks quote, as well as remembering how some discussions I've seen here and other gaming forums devolved into "why isn't X character romanceable?"
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Post by smilesja on Sept 15, 2019 16:20:21 GMT
Meh, it adds depth to a game so why not continue to place them? It's a staple in Bioware games and it's part of the reason why they have a dedicated fanbase. I'm sure Bioware is weirded out by some of the fan's habits in regards to shipping but to be honest it's no different to other franchises. I don't even think Dragon Age fanbase is that creepy, bad or obsessive, all things considered. Oh definitely, people who say that the DA fanbase is creepy probably have not seen creepy fanbases. Like the Pokemon shipping fandom. XD
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 16:26:31 GMT
Sure they do, but does it matter? Love intrests and followers are an important part of why I enjoy Bioware RPGs and what makes a Bioware game feel like a Bioware game. Other games like Assassins Creed tried to add the romance thing to their most recent game and fell miserably short. The experience I have playing the DA or ME games is so much more meaningful to me because of the relationships my character can form, both good and bad, with followers and the like. They could probably do that without romances but having characters that are LIs in addition to being advisors or followers adds that extra bit of depth and fun and why I replay the shit out of these games.
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