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Post by smilesja on Sept 19, 2019 4:50:55 GMT
So you'll be fine with it if BioWare's next game only has same-sex romance content. I know I would be. As a writer i find any artificial mandate on my craft silly. As a gamer i don't play myself anyways so a hetero romance option is not required. Well I know some people that get really upset if there’s a slightest bit of positive LGBTQ stuff in the games  : www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/09/celeste-includes-gay-and-trans-pride-flags/92796/It’s a conspiracy guys! The SJWs are taking over! |
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2019 5:02:33 GMT
I know I would be. As a writer i find any artificial mandate on my craft silly. As a gamer i don't play myself anyways so a hetero romance option is not required. As a writer myself, there is a big difference between writing something narratively linear without interactivity and writing an RPG. When you’re making a game that relies heavily on choice and character definition it’s bad form to overly rely on railroading. This goes just as much for ancillary content like romances as it does for major moments. It’s nice to provide the player with choice as much as possible, especially if it’s for something not fundamentally essential to the plot. Obviously some compromises have to be made in a computer RPG: one cannot choose to ignore the Blight/the hole in the sky and go play an entirely different game, but players should ideally not be railroaded into setpieces if it requires a lessening of player agency over their character, nor should they be railroaded into being straight/gay, which for that matter is much easier to accomplish reliably. And that’s without even getting into the significance of representation to the LGBT community, how it is important, and how it is reasonable to have more of a dialogue in a fundamentally interactive medium anyway, which adds another layer to things. Oh absolutley. I don't mind one way or another. Be as inclusive as you want/ can, don't be as inclusive as you can. Besides in *most* RPGs romance is an entirely optional feature that the player can partake in or not. If there is no one for you to romance in the game you can quite easily just RP that your character isn't interested in anyone else. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 19, 2019 5:05:03 GMT
I know I would be. As a writer i find any artificial mandate on my craft silly. As a gamer i don't play myself anyways so a hetero romance option is not required. Well I know some people that get really upset if there’s a slightest bit of positive LGBTQ stuff in the games  : www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/09/celeste-includes-gay-and-trans-pride-flags/92796/It’s a conspiracy guys! The SJWs are taking over! At first I thought this was a troll article because of how ridiculous the article was. Then I saw the comments and I learned I was wrong and these people actually think this. In other news, waiting for this DLC since I have the game.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 19, 2019 5:06:49 GMT
As a gamer i don't play myself anyways so a hetero romance option is not required. I don't see what this has to do with it. People can want a romance type, or consider said type valuable, that they have no stake in. I'm a straight woman. I make male characters for various reasons (beyond the scope of this thread). I'm interested in men, therefore my characters are gay because they share my interest in men. That's just how it works out for me. I know someone else, a gay man, who makes gay characters regardless of gender. His female PCs romance women and his male PCs romance men. As the player, he obviously has no attraction to women in reality, but that lesbian romance is valuable to him as a player. If there is no one for you to romance in the game you can quite easily just RP that your character isn't interested in anyone else. This can be read as a shitty response, so it might be good to clarify. I'm not interested in Zevran or Alistair, so even if the DAO romances were all bi, my Warden wouldn't have romanced anyone, but I still play him as gay, along with my DAA Orlesian Warden; it's RP and headcanon. I never expect to like any of the given LI, so it's a pleasant surprise when I do, particularly to the level that I like Fenris and (even greater) Dorian. That said, there is a difference between not liking the available options and not having any in the first place. Your quoted remark can easily be read as telling the players in the latter category to just suck it up and RP that their character isn't interested in anyone in the situation where they don't have any options at all.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 19, 2019 5:31:56 GMT
I'm not a Bioware writer.
If I were them I would be kinda frustrated...there's almost a very nitpicky fast food order feel to it when you read fans demands towards romances.
I'm picky myself when it comes to romances in RPGs, and also towards companions nowadays.
Especially when it comes to Bioware, I'm way more chill with other games.
I blame the fact that the first RPGs that got me hooked to the genre was DAO. And the Alistair romance...it was a rollercoaster of sweet romance, frustration, political shenanigans, being dumped in the name of duty, failed manipulation, sacrifice in the name of True Luv, tears and the shittiest endgame party ever.
I think for some people Bioware games have an emotional impact and not just pure entertainment, so some fans (myself included) aren't totally rational in our demands/expectations.
I almost only romanced David Gaider characters. (except Isabela) I had a blast romancing Alistair, Morrigan, Fenris, Dorian (and had a secret forever doomed crush on Shale)
There is a chance playing DA4 I will be disappointed, Bioware doesn't have my favorite romance menu anymore.
As far as sexuality well I'm still pro all bi option from DA2...I know representation is important and all of that but I'd rather have 4/5 great romances with great content and interesing/gripping story arcs than 9/10 romances with all type of sexuality.
Don't want to sound like an asshole but pansexual who's into BDSM is not melting my heart and giving me all kind of great emotional experience. I know, I know it probably worked wonders for some people.
Isabela was cool though, remember her being shifty and then having to rescue her during a main mission? You could get "betrayed" by her in the middle of the game. For me that's "romance", having to wonder mid game what kind of character you're romancing, having to take some dashing leap of faith for them (or not) it's better than virtual tie me up/who's your daddy safewords.
I wouldn't want the straight baldur gate paladin romance back either...the pure courtly love pushed to extreme with just a tiny grain of daddy issues to spice it up was the stuff of nightmare for me.
I played romance that were not involved with main game stuff obviously Fenris/Dorian, they were enough of drama queens characters to keep me on my toes.(also cutie pies, I'm a shallow woman ) Never played the Sera romance but though it was cool content because they were a lot of small details and effort put into her character overall. Different nicknames, different reaction to different races, her cool little diary thingie, and she can break up with you because she decides it won't work out because of different worldviews. Usually it's the pc who do the dumping for stuff like that.
Anyway if someone from Bioware would see my laundry list of the perfect romance, I'd expect they'd have lots of regrets!
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 19, 2019 5:48:23 GMT
As far as sexuality well I'm still pro all bi option from DA2...I know representation is important and all of that but I'd rather have 4/5 great romances with great content and interesing/gripping story arcs than 9/10 romances with all type of sexuality. Don't want to sound like an asshole but pansexual who's into BDSM is not melting my heart and giving me all kind of great emotional experience. I know, I know it probably worked wonders for some people. You realize that Bull would have been included in the all bi scenario, right? The BDSM is part of his personality and how he enjoys sex, not his orientation. There is no guarantee that you will like any given LI, even if they do all bi romances. |
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2019 5:50:25 GMT
As a gamer i don't play myself anyways so a hetero romance option is not required. I don't see what this has to do with it. People can want a romance type, or consider said type valuable, that they have no stake in. I'm a straight woman. I make male characters for various reasons (beyond the scope of this thread). I'm interested in men, therefore my characters are gay because they share my interest in men. That's just how it works out for me. I know someone else, a gay man, who makes gay characters regardless of gender. His female PCs romance women and his male PCs romance men. As the player, he obviously has no attraction to women in reality, but that lesbian romance is valuable to him as a player. If there is no one for you to romance in the game you can quite easily just RP that your character isn't interested in anyone else. This can be read as a shitty response, so it might be good to clarify. I'm not interested in Zevran or Alistair, so even if the DAO romances were all bi, my Warden wouldn't have romanced anyone, but I still play him as gay, along with my DAA Orlesian Warden; it's RP and headcanon. I never expect to like any of the given LI, so it's a pleasant surprise when I do, particularly to the level that I like Fenris and (even greater) Dorian. That said, there is a difference between not liking the available options and not having any in the first place. Your quoted remark can easily be read as telling the players in the latter category to just suck it up and RP that their character isn't interested in anyone in the situation where they don't have any options at all. Its what I do in the circumstances. Whenever the game does not give me an option I want I either reconcile it and suck it up...or I headcannon it away. Which is usually quite easy in BioWare's case since they usually do such a good job in letting you dictate your character that when such disconnects happen it is compartively easier to work our way around them. As others have stated recently this is a CRPG made by another company, this comes with a whole host of limitations on them that makes it enormiously difficult to perfectly please everyone...to put every single option for RP in these games...or every type of human character in the game concievable. That last one is in its fact an impossibility. All they can do is their best and BioWare is by far and away the best when it comes to this issue in the industry. Just look at how their compeitition views its. And thus when I am playing a BioWare game I pick the option that best matches the character I am trying to build in role play. I don't play myself. I don't do self inserts. I try and create a seperate character and there are times BioWare is not going to give me the options I want. Like in ME 3 when Traynor was only an option for Female Shepard. She would've been perfect for my bro...but did I complain? No I shrugged my shoulders and moved on. Or Cassandra in DAI. Might've been really interesting to have a lesbian romance between her and my cannon Inquisitor...but again...that is not an option so I shrug my shoulders and moved onto romancing Cullen. This response may sound shitty, but I think its a pretty realistic reading of the situation other writers and programmers and game devs are in when trying to breathe these games to life. They aren't perfect. I've had issues with pretty much all the RP presented in every Bio game to date...but they are by far the best in the industry for the type of RP Iam looking for. |
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Post by Reznore on Sept 19, 2019 7:19:51 GMT
You realize that Bull would have been included in the all bi scenario, right? The BDSM is part of his personality and how he enjoys sex, not his orientation. There is no guarantee that you will like any given LI, even if they do all bi romances. I said all bi so you can have more interesting story content. So we don't have more Iron Bull. Iron Bull can die and betray you in the DLC, and there's not even a cutscene of him dying...yet you have whole cutscene about safeword and joke about the size of his manhood?
He is one of the main romance of DAI.
Compare that to Alistair in DAO, forget the making him possibly king or warden or drunk and how it influence the romance and your own status, the question of the OGB, the question of Loghain, how he can hate you for Redcliffe, the influencing his personality, the pretty poor (let's be honest ) Goldanna quest... He can die at the end of DAO because of your choices.
It happens in the main game, and you can even talk to him a bit.
So yeah I think ending up with ressources spend on picking BDSM safeword is a bit ridiculous. I mean Alistair was a virgin and picked you a flower and you had a goofy as hell sex scene, his story arc was relevant to the main DAO quest and when you romanced him, you could gain a whole different experience of the game at key story moments.
Solas is one of the rare romance that is a bit epic and relevant to the main story, he probably has the less romance content during the main game and you can't influence his fate whatsoever.
So yes I'd take 4 all bi LI with super interesting story arc relevant and interactive with the main quests. I'm well aware Alistair was a straight romance and Morrigan as well and that's why they got a lot of attention in DAO, it's a problem. It's still a problem with Bioware when you look at Andromeda. They could make 2 straight and 2 gay romances and put more effort in the gay romances, I wouldn't care, I romance all the things as long as I find the character/content interesting.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 19, 2019 7:41:16 GMT
As far as sexuality well I'm still pro all bi option from DA2...I know representation is important and all of that but I'd rather have 4/5 great romances with great content and interesing/gripping story arcs than 9/10 romances with all type of sexuality. Don't want to sound like an asshole but pansexual who's into BDSM is not melting my heart and giving me all kind of great emotional experience. I know, I know it probably worked wonders for some people. You realize that Bull would have been included in the all bi scenario, right? The BDSM is part of his personality and how he enjoys sex, not his orientation. There is no guarantee that you will like any given LI, even if they do all bi romances. Let’s see, if they did do the 4 bi options in DAI it would have been: Cassandra Rainier Sera The Iron Bull Yep, I wouldn’t have liked any of the LIs and would have missed out on my favorite LI ever. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 19, 2019 7:54:08 GMT
Let’s see, if they did do the 4 bi options in DAI it would have been: Cassandra Rainier Sera The Iron Bull Yep, I wouldn’t have liked any of the LIs and would have missed out on my favorite LI ever. You can't know that Josephine still wouldn't be bi. When considering the issue, my thought was that we would have had Iron Bull and Josephine, since they're bi. Cullen and Solas would be excluded, since they were added. Dorian is excluded because his personal story makes it clear he's gay. The only male left is Blackwall, so he's in. Then it's between Cassandra and Sera for the second female spot. |
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 19, 2019 8:04:38 GMT
Do you think BioWare regrets introducing romance into their titles?
That's a sure bet.
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Felya87
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Post by Felya87 on Sept 19, 2019 8:52:07 GMT
I'd prefer if in the next game we'll get less LIs, but more connected to the story, with more outcomes depending on player choices. And all BI in that case, even with different dialogues/scenes depending on the MC gender/race.
In DAI I admit I would not have liked much my choices if Cullen and Solas weren't there (even liking Iron Bull myself). I still find strange that Cullen wasn't thought from the beginning as a main romance at all.
In DAI most romance really feel like a very side content, but so are entire characters: Iron Bull, Vivienne, Sera and Blackwall expecially feel like very side content, since they don't really impact anything at all in the story. But is the price to pay for facoltative companions. All of them can be completely ignored, not recruited or send away. Is the malus of having a range of choices.
That's why I'd prefer less companions in DA4, but more important to the plot. That mean I may be stuck with characters I hate and less choices for LIs, but maybe it would be balanced by more depth/outcomes/character growt for them. Or at least make the most plot important character bi, while the less plot involved have set sexualities. (Sorry for grammar/strange writing, I just woke up and the coffee in my blood is still too little)
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Post by cypherj on Sept 19, 2019 10:13:56 GMT
Well, that's not what I said. Every group doesn't have to be in everything. Has nothing to do with gay or straight. I've never seen anything in my life made better by trying to please everyone. So you'll be fine with it if BioWare's next game only has same-sex romance content. I'll go out on a limb and say yeah. But since you went there, it just shows another problem with 2019+. You can't make a comment on some things without being called racist, homophobic, a misogynist, etc. Trying to please everyone isn't good because when you put mandates on things you often get stuff that feels token or tacked on. I'd rather it not be in there at all.   
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 19, 2019 11:12:55 GMT
So you'll be fine with it if BioWare's next game only has same-sex romance content. I'll go out on a limb and say yeah. But since you went there, it just shows another problem with 2019+. You can't make a comment on some things without being called racist, homophobic, a misogynist, etc. Trying to please everyone isn't good because when you put mandates on things you often get stuff that feels token or tacked on. I'd rather it not be in there at all. I didn't go anywhere. You said that creators shouldn't be forced to 'please everyone', which isn't actually a thing that is happening, so I asked how you'd feel if, for once, you were the group that wasn't being catered to. And since your answer to 'token' content, whatever you think that means, is to remove it, and not to try harder, yeah, I think I have a good sense of how you feel about the issue. |
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Post by cypherj on Sept 19, 2019 11:56:21 GMT
I'll go out on a limb and say yeah. But since you went there, it just shows another problem with 2019+. You can't make a comment on some things without being called racist, homophobic, a misogynist, etc. Trying to please everyone isn't good because when you put mandates on things you often get stuff that feels token or tacked on. I'd rather it not be in there at all. I didn't go anywhere. You said that creators shouldn't be forced to 'please everyone', which isn't actually a thing that is happening, so I asked how you'd feel if, for once, you were the group that wasn't being catered to. And since your answer to 'token' content, whatever you think that means, is to remove it, and not to try harder, yeah, I think I have a good sense of how you feel about the issue.
I'm black, if you can't tell by some of the screenshots. So I don't have to imagine how it feels to be the group that wasn't being catered to. I know good and well what it's like.
Having said that, I believe my comment was if it's going to be token (thrown in to just say you have it) or half-assed I'd rather not have it be included at all.
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 19, 2019 15:58:44 GMT
I did not read all of this thread yet but if they do regret it they shouldn't. It's what gave them a leg up on a lot of competition over the years and the majority of the people like the romances.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 19, 2019 16:29:54 GMT
Just because there’s gay options doesn’t mean BioWare is trying to please everyone.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 19, 2019 17:25:05 GMT
Just because there’s gay options doesn’t mean BioWare is trying to please everyone. The mentality behind the suggestion tends to imply that Bioware does it out of some grudging obligation, doesn't it?
I can't speak to anything involving ME, but we know from DA that Gavid Gaider at least wanted them in from the beginning. Now it seems as if the whole DA team is enthusiastically on board with romances and does enjoy writing them if they feel it's a fit for their character.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 19, 2019 18:00:59 GMT
So you'll be fine with it if BioWare's next game only has same-sex romance content. I'll go out on a limb and say yeah. But since you went there, it just shows another problem with 2019+. You can't make a comment on some things without being called racist, homophobic, a misogynist, etc. Trying to please everyone isn't good because when you put mandates on things you often get stuff that feels token or tacked on. I'd rather it not be in there at all. Yeah, trying to please everyone is a drag. That's why they should only put straight people and white people in the next game IF IT MAKES SENSE you know. Otherwise it's just token.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 19, 2019 18:05:40 GMT
Just because there’s gay options doesn’t mean BioWare is trying to please everyone.
Who said that's what it means? When you make your game one way and then change it because people are saying this group has two options, this group has one, and this group has none, you are trying to please everyone. Then people turn around and tell you it's half assed, why, because you tacked it on after the fact.
People are hell bent on trying to make some type of anti gay argument.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 19, 2019 18:05:48 GMT
I'll go out on a limb and say yeah. But since you went there, it just shows another problem with 2019+. You can't make a comment on some things without being called racist, homophobic, a misogynist, etc. Trying to please everyone isn't good because when you put mandates on things you often get stuff that feels token or tacked on. I'd rather it not be in there at all. Yeah, trying to please everyone is a drag. That's why they should only put straight people and white people in the next game IF IT MAKES SENSE you know. Otherwise it's just token. THis is why I don't visit the character and romance forums anymore...
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Post by smilesja on Sept 19, 2019 18:07:35 GMT
Just because there’s gay options doesn’t mean BioWare is trying to please everyone.
Who said that's what it means? When you make your game one way and then change it because people are saying this group has two options, this group has one, and this group has none, you are trying to please everyone. Then people turn around and tell you it's half assed, why, because you tacked it on after the fact.
People are hell bent on trying to make some type of anti gay argument.
Fandom always whines, when you do something different they whine. When you have thing stay the same, they whine. In what you’re saying, it’s just fandom being fandom. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 19, 2019 18:08:30 GMT
I did not read all of this thread yet but if they do regret it they shouldn't. It's what gave them a leg up on a lot of competition over the years and the majority of the people like the romances. Like I said, I don't think they regret putting romances in the games. Just how central they have become. I think this thread is proving to be quite demonstrative of the point.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 19, 2019 18:13:26 GMT
I did not read all of this thread yet but if they do regret it they shouldn't. It's what gave them a leg up on a lot of competition over the years and the majority of the people like the romances. Like I said, I don't think they regret putting romances in the games. Just how central they have become. I think this thread is proving to be quite demonstrative of the point. Being a little judgemental are you? |
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witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 19, 2019 18:14:51 GMT
Yeah, trying to please everyone is a drag. That's why they should only put straight people and white people in the next game IF IT MAKES SENSE you know. Otherwise it's just token. THis is why I don't visit the character and romance forums anymore... What is the issue?
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