saandrig
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by saandrig on Sept 24, 2019 14:58:40 GMT
But also unlike Anthem, it has stuff to do. A praise and a comparison that I somehow doubt will bring a sense of pride in any developer for the foreseeable future.
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Post by shinobiwan on Sept 24, 2019 15:09:11 GMT
Give me a break, there’s no credible claim BL3 isn’t “working.” On vanilla PS4, the menus are a little sluggish (I’ve dealt with worse, not including Anthem) and once in a while there’s some slowdown. There are also complaints that the game isn’t running as optimally as it should on certain high-end rigs. Sure, there are performance issues to iron out, but this isn’t an Anthem situation where the game is actually not “working” for a significant portion of the playerbase. Let’s save the outrage for games that actually deserve it, and also make sure it’s based in accurate facts. Thanks. BL3 may be in a better state than even current day Anthem, but it still has loads of performance issues, as you noted. I still think it is egregious to launch in such a state and that "at least it isn't Anthem", for me, is not an excuse. But also unlike Anthem, it has stuff to do. I didn’t say it has “loads” of performance issues — and it doesn’t. It has occasional performance issues that aren’t bad on even the weakest hardware that can play the game (PS4 vanilla). There’s nothing even remotely “egregious” about the launch state of BL3, let alone to assert the game isn’t “working” as you previously did. You’re wasting your time and credibility making those sorts of accusations.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 24, 2019 15:45:31 GMT
BL3 may be in a better state than even current day Anthem, but it still has loads of performance issues, as you noted. I still think it is egregious to launch in such a state and that "at least it isn't Anthem", for me, is not an excuse. But also unlike Anthem, it has stuff to do. I didn’t say it has “loads” of performance issues — and it doesn’t. It has occasional performance issues that aren’t bad on even the weakest hardware that can play the game (PS4 vanilla). There’s nothing even remotely “egregious” about the launch state of BL3. You’re wasting your time and credibility making those sorts of accusations. I'm being specific on the PC release. I can't talk about consoles. I wouldn't know. It's been covered quite well for the PC issues of BL3, but maybe that is all tied to Denuvo. Since BL3 does not exist without Denuvo on PC, it's hard to gauge it. DMC5 had a similar problem, until one of the devs leaked a denuvo free .exe of the game and performance shot up ~20% on all configurations. Or so I recall.
As for my credibility, well, I thank you for considering me credible in the first place.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 24, 2019 16:06:20 GMT
I didn’t say it has “loads” of performance issues — and it doesn’t. It has occasional performance issues that aren’t bad on even the weakest hardware that can play the game (PS4 vanilla). There’s nothing even remotely “egregious” about the launch state of BL3. You’re wasting your time and credibility making those sorts of accusations. I'm being specific on the PC release. I can't talk about consoles. I wouldn't know. It's been covered quite well for the PC issues of BL3, but maybe that is all tied to Denuvo. Since BL3 does not exist without Denuvo on PC, it's hard to gauge it. DMC5 had a similar problem, until one of the devs leaked a denuvo free .exe of the game and performance shot up ~20% on all configurations. Or so I recall. I am not sure if MEA had a 20% boost when they removed Denuvo, but it was a noticeable improvement too. Some say it's all down to how well it's implemented. But I would very much like to see the last two AC games without Denuvo (and the second protection over it) to check the performance.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 24, 2019 16:21:43 GMT
I am not sure if MEA had a 20% boost when they removed Denuvo, but it was a noticeable improvement too. Some say it's all down to how well it's implemented. But I would very much like to see the last two AC games without Denuvo (and the second protection over it) to check the performance. Denuvo's more recent implementations seem to be very resource intensive. More so than previous ones. There was some real shady stuff being talked about it, like it requiring a 2mbps upload speed, because it would basically stream your game, keyloggers etc. Come to think of it, Odyssey as well runs unreasonably slow even on high end hardware. Hmmmmm
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Sept 24, 2019 16:33:02 GMT
Nowadays, MP is forced upon us EA and Bioware are only following the road that was paved by ME3. For everything that is happening today, we promoted it back in the day. It's 100% our fault that we're here. But then you take a game like SWTOR or ANTHEM that has Co-Op MP gameplay built into it, it was designed to play this way....and that game style is suddenly now, actually fun and it makes sense. This is fine, this is good But why would you have Bioware, of all studios, make them? SW:ToR has no business being a MMO and Anthem is barely recognizable as a Bioware game. If at all. But still, I miss games like the original DARK FORCES and Jedi Knight series by LucasArts, games that were properly designed Single Player, meant to be played alone I have to, again, note that we voted these games out. From the XBOX 360/PS3 era, we slowly, but steadily, voted these games out in favour of MP games. Especially through CoD. Flash FWD some 25 years and I really don't mind the Online GAAS model, infact, I kinda like it That depends on its intrusiveness. AC: Odyssey did it right, in my opinion, but Anthem? Not even close. I think more games should be made this way. Or at least give people the choice....after all they are spending their money to buy this game/product, supporting the company. It's now their game, they own it and should have the choice of how and when they want to play. Companies no longer want you to own games, which is why you don't. Not with new games. Now, you are given a license to play them and you have no saying in what happens to the product itself. If, at any point, a company chooses to shut down a game, you can no longer have access to it, through the always online "Live Service" model. It's only "Live" until the publisher decides to kill it. And for some games, that is faster rather than later. Hello good Sir..... While I stand by what I have said (being an old school gamer whose favourite games of the 1990s-early 2000s) anything made by LEC (Lucas Arts Entertainment Company, like Jedi Knight, Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy, Dark Forces, Full Throttle, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, X-Wing, TIE Fighter, Rebel Assault I and II) where they were truly-fashioned SP games, story/character based games.....Games that you could buy and own...... I absolutely and totally agree 100% with everything you have also said in reply to my original post. It is unfortunate that ever after you purchase a game, like you said, "you don't own the game. Companies don't want you to own the game"; you are simply given license to in a sense, 'rent' the game, to have the privilege of accessing it for as long as the Company wants you to have access to it. And if they decide to shut it down and/or stop supporting it via bug fixes, then they can do that at any time without telling you. "SW:ToR has no business being a MMO".....I can not speak directly to this point as I have never played the game....But from everything I have seen on youtube, it looks very much like KOTOR (especially when you look at the art style and graphics that were used.) And don't misunderstand me-- I'm not knocking KOTOR for any reason. It was an amazing game. But for SW:TOR to be made several years later (with the advancements in graphics tech) why did they purposefully design it to look so much like KOTOR? Speaking about "Graphics" it almost looked like a step backwards (when there were other games on the scene like ME that looked so much more advanced in terms of year-by-year advancements in technology over time. Better looking games every year or every 5 years is expected and understandable. In other words, as an example....if the year is 2010, why make a game that looks as though it game out in 1997, when every other game made in 2010 looks as though it was made in 2010). Unless they were attempting to make it similar looking to KOTOR for a specific reason. Maybe a shared Universe/timeline etc. Maybe they just wanted a 'spiritual successor' to a game they knew was so wildly popular with fans. BUT, if that was the case-- why make TOR, and not a direct sequel to KOTOR II, as fans had wanted/expected/hoped for....? It is these reasons why I have never understood the production of SW:TOR as it stands, MMO or not, though MMO is a separate issue that I won't go into right now. -I know nothing, absolute zero about the AC games. I played the first two for the 360, but never finished them. Found them boring and sold them soon after purchasing them. I have not been interested in future installments. - I enjoyed both Call of Duty and Medal of Honor, but why games like Jedi Knight had to be 'voted down' in favour of those titles, I don't understand. All of those games, both franchises were amazing. -I never got into the ME3 MP aspect, but I have heard it was amazing, I know people (still) love it and I can understand why. I am glad people do. But that type of MP (PVP style in particular, with matches like Capture the Flag or whatever) I could never really get into. But I am glad people love it, that the ME franchise has vocal fans. Anyways, I appreciate and agree with everything you have said....This is my reply to your reply. You made some excellent points that I wanted to respond to. Thanks again.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 24, 2019 16:55:36 GMT
- I enjoyed both Call of Duty and Medal of Honor, but why games like Jedi Knight had to be 'voted down' in favour of those titles, I don't understand. All of those games, both franchises were amazing. Because of RoI. Jedi Knight and Rogue Squadron weren't making CoD money, so the owners of these studios shut them down, because they weren't making enough money. You see, the industry's goals have shifted and nowadays a AAA publisher doesn't want to just turn a profit, it needs to make all the money and after it made all the money, make even more than that the next financial quarter. And if a studio doesn't turn in that profit, well, those devs better be handy with those CVs. As for everything else in your reply, yes, I feel you and I do understand where you're coming from. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me as well.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 24, 2019 20:59:02 GMT
- I enjoyed both Call of Duty and Medal of Honor, but why games like Jedi Knight had to be 'voted down' in favour of those titles, I don't understand. All of those games, both franchises were amazing. Because of RoI. Jedi Knight and Rogue Squadron weren't making CoD money, so the owners of these studios shut them down, because they weren't making enough money. You see, the industry's goals have shifted and nowadays a AAA publisher doesn't want to just turn a profit, it needs to make all the money and after it made all the money, make even more than that the next financial quarter. And if a studio doesn't turn in that profit, well, those devs better be handy with those CVs. As for everything else in your reply, yes, I feel you and I do understand where you're coming from. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me as well.
What's next?
EA better, somehow, increase Anthem interest. At the moment, the gaming community has relegated this game to the dustbin of history. Ergo, the axe on the ACTs. So, I ask. How is fixing core issues and seasonal updates generate game interest in the general gaming space? Oh, I forgot. EA will just update their Anthem website.
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Post by tatann on Sept 24, 2019 22:29:14 GMT
Sorry but the fault relies on the people who paid hundreds/thousands of dollars in MTX in ME3MP, not the players who simply played the game they paid for Yes, it does. The data showed blatantly that all the community cared about, in the end, was the MP. The MTX was just the cherry on top. Which is why EA vowed not to make SP games anymore, because of player retention, lasting engagement and furthermore the recurrent player spending. EA doesn't care about player retention, and certainly not about making games players enjoy. They care about money. If some people are crazy enough to throw money at them (or companies like Apple), don't blame the people acting reasonably, blame the crazies (and the zealots defending these companies)
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 25, 2019 0:54:37 GMT
But player retention is how they plan to make that money, right? Yeah, it's just a tool, but it is something they want.
As for blame, what's the point? Gamers do what gamers do, and EA will do whatever works best in that market. What else should they do?
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 25, 2019 6:29:52 GMT
Player retention does not automatically mean more cash earned.
There are plenty of single player games that made money, and it was not because of player retention, but because they made a good game.
Also, if you make a poor excuse of a cash shop like anthem, doesn't matter how good your retention is, you're not going to make any decent money from it.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 25, 2019 7:27:11 GMT
Player retention does not automatically mean more cash earned. There are plenty of single player games that made money, and it was not because of player retention, but because they made a good game. Also, if you make a poor excuse of a cash shop like anthem, doesn't matter how good your retention is, you're not going to make any decent money from it. I have been bringing this subject since Day 1 - fix the bloody MTX shop. The fact that they launched with the shop in such a state and never bothered to fix it is one of the big clues that Bioware knew Anthem wasn't a long term project even in February. If the game was the roaring success as some people claim, the MTX market stalls would have encompassed half the Fort by now 😁
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 25, 2019 11:22:01 GMT
EA doesn't care about player retention Yes, they do. That's how you maximize "recurrent player spending". certainly not about making games players enjoy. They care about money. That is true. They don't care for our enjoyment, just our money.
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Post by Dekibra on Sept 25, 2019 11:52:52 GMT
EA doesn't care about player retention Yes, they do. That's how you maximize "recurrent player spending". certainly not about making games players enjoy. They care about money. That is true. They don't care for our enjoyment, just our money. Well they should - I only play games I enjoy 😉 (and I am fairly certain that I am not the only one)
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Post by saandrig on Sept 25, 2019 12:05:18 GMT
Yes, they do. That's how you maximize "recurrent player spending". That is true. They don't care for our enjoyment, just our money. Well they should - I only play games I enjoy 😉 (and I am fairly certain that I am not the only one) You probably haven't met the NBA 2k crowd And for the better. If there was ever a product that screamed "Don't care for your fun, now empty your wallets!"...
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Post by tatann on Sept 25, 2019 13:37:59 GMT
EA doesn't care about player retention Yes, they do. That's how you maximize "recurrent player spending". I bet they'd prefer lower player numbers (less servers to maintain, less marketing budget) but more "crazies" (like the one who spent 15000$ on ME3MP) You know, like Star Citizen is doing, with about the same number of players/beta testers than Anthem, but some people spending 1000s on virtual not yet released spaceships
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 25, 2019 13:51:19 GMT
I bet they'd prefer lower player numbers (less servers to maintain, less marketing budget) but more "crazies" (like the one who spent 15000$ on ME3MP) You know, like Star Citizen is doing, with about the same number of players/beta testers than Anthem, but some people spending 1000s on virtual not yet released spaceships Yes, but EA wants MORE. MORE players, MORE payers. They want the people that spend $1000 on star citizen ships to pay, I mean play their games. And the more people p(l)ay, the longer they p(l)ay. For anything short of that, EA may as well be a charity, practically giving away games for $60. Do you want EA to go out of business? Andrew Wilson barely made $30 million last year. How is he going to run a company? Practically homeless he is, the poor man.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 25, 2019 15:00:53 GMT
Player retention does not automatically mean more cash earned. There are plenty of single player games that made money, and it was not because of player retention, but because they made a good game. Also, if you make a poor excuse of a cash shop like anthem, doesn't matter how good your retention is, you're not going to make any decent money from it. Sure. My point was just that EA intends to monetize the player retention. Obviously, you can't monetize something you don't have, so they need to get retention to make the strategy work. (And they'll take the upfront sale cash too, so that's irrelevant. They want both.) I'll take your word for it that Anthem's shop didn't work. No product in this category has ever interested me, so I don't think I'm competent to distinguish between good monetization and bad monetization.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 25, 2019 15:52:59 GMT
A lot of mobile games are designed specifically to catch ONE big whale. That's enough to make a profit. Now an expensive AAA game needs more than one but in theory they don't need thousands of regular players, just enough stupid people who spend too much money to keep it profitable. A game does not need to be good to get people to spend money. It just needs to have hooks, like those Japanese games with hot babes you can collect.
Anthem's problem is the lack of hooks. Why spend money on these ugly cosmetics? If they sold more javelins, it would be different. They could make money selling guns and powers. People would throw a fit over pay to win BUT I bet it would still be much more profitable.
I'm inclined to believe that Anthem's monetization is so crap because Bioware never cared for this feature but implemented it because it pleased EA. Or maybe they simply suck at this aspect too, lol... Bethesda on the other hand now shamelessly pushes the Atomic Shop. Unlike Anthem's anemic cosmetics shop, FO76 store was the one thing that worked right away. And you can get a ton of stuff that fans are really tempted to buy, I bet. I'm sure FO76 makes a lot of money regardless of its reception and continued ridicule. Money is money. They ruined their entire reputation with this game but I guess Zenimax doesn't care. Just as EA doesn't care that Bioware has lost its status as king of RPGs. Money is all that matters.
While I'm disappointed in Bioware and sad at the mediocre games they're releasing now, I'm DISGUSTED with Bethesda. The fact that Anthem's MTX shop is so bad is actually sort of comforting. At least this game was not designed from the start as little more than a MTX shop with some weak gameplay.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 25, 2019 16:16:36 GMT
Well, Kappa Neko, all the rage nowadays is easing into MTX, like Fallout 76 did. For example, the latest CoD did not launch with MTX at all. And look at it now. It's got so many tabs and menus and submenus to browse for cosmetics and skins and in game items and upgrades and magazines and frankly I'm having a panic attack, shut it down, shut it down, SHUT IT DOWN!
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 25, 2019 16:56:08 GMT
like those Japanese games with hot babes . Ranger waifu armor confirmed!!
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Post by Iakus on Sept 25, 2019 17:12:02 GMT
Well, Kappa Neko , all the rage nowadays is easing into MTX, like Fallout 76 did. For example, the latest CoD did not launch with MTX at all. And look at it now. It's got so many tabs and menus and submenus to browse for cosmetics and skins and in game items and upgrades and magazines and frankly I'm having a panic attack, shut it down, shut it down, SHUT IT DOWN!
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Post by XCPTNL on Sept 25, 2019 19:51:22 GMT
Yes, they do. That's how you maximize "recurrent player spending". I bet they'd prefer lower player numbers (less servers to maintain, less marketing budget) but more "crazies" (like the one who spent 15000$ on ME3MP) You know, like Star Citizen is doing, with about the same number of players/beta testers than Anthem, but some people spending 1000s on virtual not yet released spaceships Problem is: even if you are willing to spend a lot of money in Anthem, you simply can't. Because the store is so bad and only features a few things and now they even make it refresh less often. I'm sitting on some shards I want to spend for armor sets but the old ones I want were not featured in weeks and the new ones I didn't like. Well, I bought the Interceptor one anyways even though I don't use it. But still... I have met people who almost bought everything for all classes except for some or any of the totally overpriced and mostly ugly looking wraps. But even they didn't manage to spent nearly as much real money than they had before in other games. And all the bugs and broken core mechanics aside - why something like this is not on #1 of EA/Bioware's priority list I really can't understand. So I can't even say "they only care about money" because the way I see it they currently seem to not care much about anything. If it was about money we'd have a much better store with much more possibilities to spend (real) cash. It's really weird.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Sept 25, 2019 21:17:33 GMT
EA and Bioware are only following the road that was paved by ME3. For everything that is happening today, we promoted it back in the day. It's 100% our fault that we're here. But why would you have Bioware, of all studios, make them? SW:ToR has no business being a MMO and Anthem is barely recognizable as a Bioware game. If at all. I have to, again, note that we voted these games out. From the XBOX 360/PS3 era, we slowly, but steadily, voted these games out in favour of MP games. Especially through CoD. That depends on its intrusiveness. AC: Odyssey did it right, in my opinion, but Anthem? Not even close. Companies no longer want you to own games, which is why you don't. Not with new games. Now, you are given a license to play them and you have no saying in what happens to the product itself. If, at any point, a company chooses to shut down a game, you can no longer have access to it, through the always online "Live Service" model. It's only "Live" until the publisher decides to kill it. And for some games, that is faster rather than later. Sorry but the fault relies on the people who paid hundreds/thousands of dollars in MTX in ME3MP, not the players who simply played the game they paid for True enough.
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alanc9
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 25, 2019 21:38:10 GMT
Do we have anyone on the boards who actually did spend lots of money in ME3MP? It'd be nice to hear from that side.
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