Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 16, 2019 16:25:47 GMT
If it came down to it, I'd happily jettison save imports for reactivity. What's important is the choices made in the game affect the game it's made in.
In fact, too often imports simply constrain future storytelling, with all the possible world and character states needing to be accounted for.
In a very real sense reactivity is a result of roleplaying.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 16, 2019 16:59:07 GMT
A lot of the complaints leveled at DA:I was that the world didn't respond enough to the players actions. Hell, most RPG players who hear the phrase, "Your choices will matter," are skeptical of the claim because they often don't. People who play these types of games want developers to acknowledge their decisions by having the game world respond to them in a tangible way.
tl;dr: I vote reactivity.
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Post by arvaarad on Oct 16, 2019 17:00:19 GMT
If it came down to it, I'd happily jettison save imports for reactivity. What's important is the choices made in the game affect the game it's made in. In fact, too often imports simply constrain future storytelling, with all the possible world and character states needing to be accounted for. In a very real sense reactivity is a result of roleplaying. I don’t think they necessarily have to constrain future games that much. I’m of the opinion that they should focus more on calling back random, somewhat obscure past choices vs. focusing so much on the big choice points. Obviously some big choices should be referenced, but sprinkling in lots of weird small choices makes me feel like my whole worldstate is fair game. It’s an illusion, but illusions are great! I’m all for tricking my brain into thinking I had more of an effect than I “actually” had.
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Post by Masque on Oct 16, 2019 20:28:48 GMT
I'm casting my vote for reactivity because I like to feel as though my choices matter, even if they are acknowledged in an off-handed sort of way. For example, I was quite happy to learn that my decision to put Bhelen on the Orzammar throne back in DAO had an impact on the quest 'An Appeal to the Shaperate' in the JoH dlc. (He hands the requested documents over willingly while Harrowmont will not.)
But also because although the DA games are technically rpgs, I don't really play the games as such. I don't devise elaborate backstories or headcanons. (Not that there is anything wrong with that!) Aside from adjusting physical appearances, I keep everything rather default - even the names. I play the character as presented to me, rather than build one of my own. Of course this can only go so far as I have to inject some of my personal bias into the game via the choices I make as protag, but even then I try to keep it aligned with what I think that particular race/class might choose.
Admittedly, it was a little harder to play the Inky that way because their backstory was so vague compared to Hawke and the Warden.
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lynroy
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Post by lynroy on Oct 18, 2019 13:29:52 GMT
Which option comes with more booze Dr Pepper?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 18, 2019 14:20:32 GMT
I wouldn't be down for Tyranny type of replayability, as I lose myself in the choices, but Alpha Protocol is more like it. Also, Tyranny's writing took a deep downward drive in comparison to PoE. Very amateurish in writing. Maybe done so to accommodate the variety of choices, but that is a price one shouldn't have to pay.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Oct 19, 2019 20:12:10 GMT
I place a high premium on reactivity, but option 3 seems the best choice for a DA game.
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Post by wright1978 on Oct 19, 2019 21:33:48 GMT
From those options probably something in the middle. I wasn’t a fan of the inquisitor range of tones though.
I like the small reactivities of the import across the games. I clearly want the game to have a decent degree of reflection of the choices I make in that game. I don’t really want a complete blank slate anymore than I want an overly restrictive one.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 20, 2019 4:25:11 GMT
Which option comes with more booze Dr Pepper? Your FACE.
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Post by XJlock on Oct 20, 2019 18:54:23 GMT
The middle like in previous games.
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 20, 2019 23:23:42 GMT
Hm... Bio and EA don't reveal game costs (as far as I know). However, this article (from 2008) puts an Xbox/PS4 game cost at anywhere between 30-50M$ according to Reggie Fils-Aime, president of Nintendo of America. ... that's 2008 dollars. Today it's quite more.
EA is pushing their new "live-service" which FIFA and Madden's Footbal games have shown to be very lucrative using this model with much lower costs for the yearly iteration of these games.
Now, DA4 is not quite suitable for this type of recyclability but Bio has said they will use previous code base from past game(s). Ergo, a cost reduction. So, you ask?
Today, Bio has to be sensitive to cost and success. These two variables must influence the game design. An aRPG as we know them from from past DA games which allow for RP is a risky proposition, imo. The game must sell between 2-3 million to recoup the front end cost + some profit BUT.. no back end monetization. EA is looking for profit and continuous back end income and to do that, the game must be designed accordingly. DA4 may be a hybrid of RP and MP or only MP. Either way, I can't see RP or Reactivity in the cards. Unless, you agree with Bio's Anthem definition that it has a story and characters you love... in which case, you know what to expect from DA4.
An online MP game sharing the world with players can't do Reactivity from player decisions. Reactivity and RP belongs in an aRPG solo play. If Bio does give us that, then I would choose reactivity with the proviso that the game tells me that my decision caused X. Otherwise, what's the point?
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lynroy
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Post by lynroy on Oct 21, 2019 4:38:33 GMT
Which option comes with more booze Dr Pepper? Your FACE.
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Post by saandrig on Oct 21, 2019 6:55:00 GMT
DA4 may be a hybrid of RP and MP or only MP. Either way, I can't see RP or Reactivity in the cards. Unless, you agree with Bio's Anthem definition that it has a story and characters you love... in which case, you know what to expect from DA4. If anyone could pull that off, it's Bioware...but maybe from years ago. They managed to do it (with variable success) in a MMO, action RPGs and a "Gears of War" type game.
Nowadays Ubisoft is sort of dabbling in this, but it can jump in any direction for them. I am curious to see how it will work in WD:Legion.
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Post by Kabraxal on Oct 21, 2019 20:18:52 GMT
Given the shared world nature of this franchise, the current mix is perfect. There is enough roleplay to where I can create many different types of characters and reflect their personality well and there is just enough reactivity in the subtler changes that happen and a few big events that it feels like the world reacts in some way.
If you go any more extreme on either end, DA either becomes the Elder Scrolls with it’s extreme roleplay or it is the final title in the series as any reactivity reaching Alpha Protocol levels make sequels financially infeasible. So stick with our great little mix that has given us the best franchise in gaming.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 22, 2019 12:29:46 GMT
Given the shared world nature of this franchise, the current mix is perfect. There is enough roleplay to where I can create many different types of characters and reflect their personality well and there is just enough reactivity in the subtler changes that happen and a few big events that it feels like the world reacts in some way. If you go any more extreme on either end, DA either becomes the Elder Scrolls with it’s extreme roleplay or it is the final title in the series as any reactivity reaching Alpha Protocol levels make sequels financially infeasible. So stick with our great little mix that has given us the best franchise in gaming. I agree insofar that the current mix works reasonably well, in spite of the occasional lack of roleplaying options. There is, however, considerable room for improvement without sacrificing anything in terms of reactivity, roleplaying and story, as the example of Pathfinder:Kingmaker shows. The problem is that Bioware's resources go somewhere else completely, namely into the composition of interactive scenes. As good as they usually are, they could do with a lot more cost-saving standardization (as the example of TW3 shows) without losing significantly in quality.
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Post by arvaarad on Oct 22, 2019 15:13:43 GMT
Given the shared world nature of this franchise, the current mix is perfect. There is enough roleplay to where I can create many different types of characters and reflect their personality well and there is just enough reactivity in the subtler changes that happen and a few big events that it feels like the world reacts in some way. If you go any more extreme on either end, DA either becomes the Elder Scrolls with it’s extreme roleplay or it is the final title in the series as any reactivity reaching Alpha Protocol levels make sequels financially infeasible. So stick with our great little mix that has given us the best franchise in gaming. I agree insofar that the current mix works reasonably well, in spite of the occasional lack of roleplaying options. There is, however, considerable room for improvement without sacrificing anything in terms of reactivity, roleplaying and story, as the example of Pathfinder:Kingmaker shows. The problem is that Bioware's resources go somewhere else completely, namely into the composition of interactive scenes. As good as they usually are, they could do with a lot more cost-saving standardization (as the example of TW3 shows) without losing significantly in quality. TW doesn’t have any face customization, right? It’s always the same Geralt face? I’d imagine that boosts the challenge level to create each Bioware conversation. Don’t want lips phasing past each other for some sounds, or cheeks colliding with the eyes when the PC smiles.
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Post by revelationeffect on Oct 23, 2019 19:00:59 GMT
I agree insofar that the current mix works reasonably well, in spite of the occasional lack of roleplaying options. There is, however, considerable room for improvement without sacrificing anything in terms of reactivity, roleplaying and story, as the example of Pathfinder:Kingmaker shows. The problem is that Bioware's resources go somewhere else completely, namely into the composition of interactive scenes. As good as they usually are, they could do with a lot more cost-saving standardization (as the example of TW3 shows) without losing significantly in quality. TW doesn’t have any face customization, right? It’s always the same Geralt face? I’d imagine that boosts the challenge level to create each Bioware conversation. Don’t want lips phasing past each other for some sounds, or cheeks colliding with the eyes when the PC smiles. Yeah that’s definitely a big part of it, even more so when implementing various character frames for each race, it’s why I’ve felt that the shit I’ve seen them get for slightly stilted animations is undeserved, it would be an absolutely ridiculous amount of work to get the animations as polished as Geralt’s in TW3. Also idk why everybody is so convinced they’re going to make a shared-state online game, the devs have repeatedly and explicitly refuted the idea that live service means it’s going to be Anthem with Dragons, I am 90% certain it’ll turn out they just mean they’re planning on implementing an AC Odyssey-esque system with something along the lines of daily quests, an in game online store, and little dribbles of free quest content stretched out over a year or more.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 23, 2019 22:57:01 GMT
I would choose to have more reactivity (especially within dialogues) over having more branching plot narratives-which I believe is one of the more expense aspects of creating an RPG. Being able to choose a personality and express how a character feels about events as they are happening, and having the world react to that is very immersive to me, even when there is no actual branching outcome of the main plot narrative.
Since branching narratives are so expensive to produce, I'd rather they save those big choices for key moments of the story (and ending) rather than spreading themselves too thin with too many choices that don't really matter. Reactivity goes a long way in changing perspective and being able to RP different types of characters, for me. For example, when characters in DAI acknowledged in dialogue what race you were or what class you were (if you were playing a mage for instance, etc), and had a different line of dialogue. It doesn't even need to take that many lines of extra dialogue really. The small touches that made you feel like your character was yours, went a long way, in my opinion.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 23, 2019 23:36:01 GMT
I agree insofar that the current mix works reasonably well, in spite of the occasional lack of roleplaying options. There is, however, considerable room for improvement without sacrificing anything in terms of reactivity, roleplaying and story, as the example of Pathfinder:Kingmaker shows. The problem is that Bioware's resources go somewhere else completely, namely into the composition of interactive scenes. As good as they usually are, they could do with a lot more cost-saving standardization (as the example of TW3 shows) without losing significantly in quality. TW doesn’t have any face customization, right? It’s always the same Geralt face? I’d imagine that boosts the challenge level to create each Bioware conversation. Don’t want lips phasing past each other for some sounds, or cheeks colliding with the eyes when the PC smiles. Probably also why body types are limited.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 23, 2019 23:56:00 GMT
From stuff in the twitter thread, different heights are the worst.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 24, 2019 15:19:04 GMT
I would choose to have more reactivity (especially within dialogues) over having more branching plot narratives-which I believe is one of the more expense aspects of creating an RPG. Being able to choose a personality and express how a character feels about events as they are happening, and having the world react to that is very immersive to me, even when there is no actual branching outcome of the main plot narrative. Since branching narratives are so expensive to produce, I'd rather they save those big choices for key moments of the story (and ending) rather than spreading themselves too thin with too many choices that don't really matter. Reactivity goes a long way in changing perspective and being able to RP different types of characters, for me. For example, when characters in DAI acknowledged in dialogue what race you were or what class you were (if you were playing a mage for instance, etc), and had a different line of dialogue. It doesn't even need to take that many lines of extra dialogue really. The small touches that made you feel like your character was yours, went a long way, in my opinion. Reactivity is how the world reacts to your decisions, and branching plots are part of that. If there is to be any reactivity at all, I'd vastly prefer reactivity to plot decisions to reactivity to mere emotion, because the latter is ultimately unimportant. Also, as much as I'd like reactivity to big decisions, they're the most difficult to implement, since they can change signficant parts of the world. So I don't expect that to happen.
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Post by melbella on Oct 25, 2019 0:50:40 GMT
Also, as much as I'd like reactivity to big decisions, they're the most difficult to implement, since they can change signficant parts of the world. So I don't expect that to happen. Not until the final installment anyway. Then they can go hog wild with different choices and different reactions to them.
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Post by Kabraxal on Oct 25, 2019 4:46:08 GMT
I would choose to have more reactivity (especially within dialogues) over having more branching plot narratives-which I believe is one of the more expense aspects of creating an RPG. Being able to choose a personality and express how a character feels about events as they are happening, and having the world react to that is very immersive to me, even when there is no actual branching outcome of the main plot narrative. Since branching narratives are so expensive to produce, I'd rather they save those big choices for key moments of the story (and ending) rather than spreading themselves too thin with too many choices that don't really matter. Reactivity goes a long way in changing perspective and being able to RP different types of characters, for me. For example, when characters in DAI acknowledged in dialogue what race you were or what class you were (if you were playing a mage for instance, etc), and had a different line of dialogue. It doesn't even need to take that many lines of extra dialogue really. The small touches that made you feel like your character was yours, went a long way, in my opinion. I’d vastly prefer reactivity to plot decisions to reactivity to mere emotion, because the latter is ultimately unimportant. Have to wholly disagree on that point. Emotional reactivity is vastly important. The most important parts of a story are its characters and how they feel is one of the key components to any character, PC or NPC. If there is no emotional reactivity, the plot, reactivity or not, is utterly pointless.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 25, 2019 5:14:15 GMT
I’d vastly prefer reactivity to plot decisions to reactivity to mere emotion, because the latter is ultimately unimportant. Have to wholly disagree on that point. Emotional reactivity is vastly important. The most important parts of a story are its characters and how they feel is one of the key components to any character, PC or NPC. If there is no emotional reactivity, the plot, reactivity or not, is utterly pointless. Amen to that. My biggest problem with HZD was that its lack of proper RPG really made it difficult to connect with Alloy emotionally which made the game suffer...until the very end.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 26, 2019 12:41:26 GMT
I’d vastly prefer reactivity to plot decisions to reactivity to mere emotion, because the latter is ultimately unimportant. Have to wholly disagree on that point. Emotional reactivity is vastly important. The most important parts of a story are its characters and how they feel is one of the key components to any character, PC or NPC. If there is no emotional reactivity, the plot, reactivity or not, is utterly pointless.
I intentionally exaggerated. Of course emotional reactivity is not unimportant. Not enough to warrant inconsistency elsewhere though.
What I wanted was to express my severe aversion against sacrificing plot and world consistency on the altar of emotion. I'm fine with a game simply acknowledging emotional expression, most of the time. And if there should be a change in an NPC's attitude and there isn't, well, that's too bad but it's not usually critical for the story, at least not in a video game story like Bioware's where most NPCs are noncritical. With decisions that should make some change to the plot or the world, however, I'm not satisfied with that since I can't opt out of the story as I can - usually - opt out of dealing with specific NPCs.
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