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Post by alanc9 on Oct 20, 2019 21:07:27 GMT
I'm kinda surprised there isn't a thread already. Figure this is likely to be the big geek event of the fall.
While waiting, how'd you folks first encounter the comic version? I got into it in an odd way; the first issue I read was #9 or so -- the one where Dr. Manhattan and Laurie go to Mars-- which I discovered just browsing stuff at a newsstand. (Pre-internet you really had to work to discover stuff.) I could tell that this was a Big Deal, so then I was off on a quest for all the previous issues. By the time I managed to track them all down #11 had shipped. (Another thing that was harder back then.)
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Post by davesin on Oct 23, 2019 8:22:41 GMT
I haven't read the graphic novel yet (I plan to get it though), only watched to movie. I watched the first episode and I'll give the show a chance. For those who saw it and read the novel, do you think: Novel!Rorschach would be ok with Seventh Cavalry? I know that movie!Rorschach is more sympathethic and his worst aspects (prejudice, sexism, hypocrisy) were downplayed or erased, but with even my limited knowledge of the original book, it seems Rorschach's cult seems to misinterpret his ideals.
(considering he's suppose to have bad handwriting, it would be kinda funny if that was the main cause)
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 23, 2019 8:44:27 GMT
First episode was promising, hopeful it'll get better. I'm really sad how bad the music was in the first episode, like "my first television score with bad synths"
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Post by mybudgee on Oct 26, 2019 2:35:30 GMT
First episode was promising, hopeful it'll get better. I'm really sad how bad the music was in the first episode, like "my first television score with bad synths" I also noticed that
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Post by Sifr on Oct 30, 2019 17:45:40 GMT
I haven't read the graphic novel yet (I plan to get it though), only watched to movie. I watched the first episode and I'll give the show a chance. For those who saw it and read the novel, do you think: Novel!Rorschach would be ok with Seventh Cavalry? I know that movie!Rorschach is more sympathethic and his worst aspects (prejudice, sexism, hypocrisy) were downplayed or erased, but with even my limited knowledge of the original book, it seems Rorschach's cult seems to misinterpret his ideals.
(considering he's suppose to have bad handwriting, it would be kinda funny if that was the main cause) To answer your question;
Novel!Rorschach does demonstrates signs of misogyny (often directed towards Laurie) and homophobia (concluding Veidt is "possibly homosexual"). His troubled upbringing having an abusive prostitute mother has also left him seemingly repelled by sexuality in general and accounts for his dim towards view on women. If Rorschach were active in our world today, he'd probably be labelled as an Incel.
That said, I don't think we ever see any signs of racism from him. His only reasons for disliking his black psychiatrist Dr Long are that he's "Fat, wealthy and doesn't understand pain", as well as his annoyance that he keeps referring to him as "Walter". Given that Rorschach usually speaks without any sort of filter or care whether he's insulting someone, that he doesn't bring up race in his critique suggests that it's not something that bothers him.
Then again, even if Rorschach were racist, I still don't think he'd approve of his persona being (mis)appropriated by the racist 7th Cavalry and endorse the types of actions that they get up to.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 30, 2019 21:23:02 GMT
I'm really sad how bad the music was in the first episode, like "my first television score with bad synths" I also noticed that I guess not many people are fans of Nine Inch Nails, then?
(Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross are the ones doing the score, for those unaware)
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Nov 4, 2019 18:34:47 GMT
I really liked the first episode and am looking forward to the next.
"Think I can lift 200 pounds?"
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Nov 4, 2019 19:28:55 GMT
I guess not many people are fans of Nine Inch Nails, then?
(Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross are the ones doing the score, for those unaware)
I know, and yeah, never been fan of NIN, but he has made some better ones. This one sounded like it was a rush job for the E01
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 10, 2019 17:16:12 GMT
You guys have seen the Peteypedia stuff, right?
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Post by Lavochkin on Nov 18, 2019 2:01:01 GMT
After watching this review of the first ep, I can't say I'm too eager to check out this show.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 18, 2019 5:15:07 GMT
Well, that's what you get from watching videos from random morons, I guess.
Edit: that was a bit unfair. That entire genre of YT vids is worse than useless, but the guy seems to be executing competently. Don't hate the playa, hate the game, right?
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Post by Sifr on Nov 18, 2019 19:41:23 GMT
Yeah, those complaining that Watchmen has become "too woke" is a bit much, when you only have to read the original graphic novel (or know anything about Alan Moore's politics) to recognise that it falls on the liberal side of the political spectrum.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 21, 2019 16:15:48 GMT
The Rotten Tomatoes user reviews can be pretty hilarious.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Nov 23, 2019 23:54:52 GMT
Yeah, those complaining that Watchmen has become "too woke" is a bit much, when you only have to read the original graphic novel (or know anything about Alan Moore's politics) to recognise that it falls on the liberal side of the political spectrum. That seems like a rather poor argument. I can't say anything about HBO's Watchmen, because I haven't watched it and don't have much plan to do so. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not. So when that's out of the way, I purchased Moore's Watchmen back in the days and loved it. Liked the more recent movie too. Doesn't matter, I still hate woke culture and everything it does to our society, with a passion. And I never regarded Watchmen or Alan Moore as the same. In fact, I think I've heard him say something along the same lines. The point being, if HBO's Watchmen is the same ugly, stupid, pandering, preaching, woke garbage that is losing media companies so much money in recent years, Alan Moore's politics is no excuse.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 24, 2019 3:49:41 GMT
That seems like a rather poor argument. I can't say anything about HBO's Watchmen, because I haven't watched it and don't have much plan to do so. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not. So when that's out of the way, I purchased Moore's Watchmen back in the days and loved it. Liked the more recent movie too. Doesn't matter, I still hate woke culture and everything it does to our society, with a passion. And I never regarded Watchmen or Alan Moore as the same. In fact, I think I've heard him say something along the same lines. The point being, if HBO's Watchmen is the same ugly, stupid, pandering, preaching, woke garbage that is losing media companies so much money in recent years, Alan Moore's politics is no excuse. That doesn't make much sense, how can you rightly judge whether or not it's "woke garbage" if you refuse to watch it?
In the original, the only two overtly Conservative characters were Rorschach and the Comedian, two individuals to whom it wouldn't be disingenuous to categorise as psychopaths. Also we're told that in the Watchmen timeline, Richard Nixon was never exposed for his corruption in the Watergate scandal (thanks to the Comedian murdering Woodward and Bernstein) and spent an additional twenty years in power, which almost ended with the US on the verge of nuclear war.
That being said, the novel wasn't exactly flattering to the left either, as it was the liberal characters who ultimately carried out, condoned and covered up the murder of three million people to avert a nuclear war. None of them even required all that much convincing either... despite their moral objections and that it required Rorschach to be murdered to maintain the lie.
In the HBO show, Robert Redford's left-wing government has been in power for 30 years, but it's hardly all sunshine and roses.
Not only have the left-wing policies upset the conservatives, but even the liberal struggle with the excessive red-tape they now must deal with. For example, police officers are required get authorisation before they can use their firearms, lowering civilian deaths from accidental shootings, but meaning that cops are more liable to be shot by armed assailants if they don't get the go-ahead in time.
There has also been a marked increase in racial tension, due to Redford's government awarding reparations to the descendants of slaves and those who've suffered racial discrimination. While this may have been done with the best of intentions, some (particularly the 7th Kavalry) have come to believe the government is prioritising minorities over white Americans and allowing minorities to make bank while white communities remain below the poverty line.
(It should be acknowledged however that the show only focuses on a single town in Oklahoma, so we can't exactly gauge whether or not the racial tensions depicted are necessarily reflective of the rest of the US or not? We don't know however how widespread the 7th Kavalry is either, but the "White Night" they were responsible for was serious enough that cops nationwide started wearing masks to hide their identities.)
TL;DR, the HBO show doesn't promote "wokeness"... if anything, it's actually criticising what happens to a society that has become too woke, as that's partially what led to the problems the US is facing within this timeline.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Nov 24, 2019 13:08:34 GMT
That seems like a rather poor argument. I can't say anything about HBO's Watchmen, because I haven't watched it and don't have much plan to do so. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not. So when that's out of the way, I purchased Moore's Watchmen back in the days and loved it. Liked the more recent movie too. Doesn't matter, I still hate woke culture and everything it does to our society, with a passion. And I never regarded Watchmen or Alan Moore as the same. In fact, I think I've heard him say something along the same lines. The point being, if HBO's Watchmen is the same ugly, stupid, pandering, preaching, woke garbage that is losing media companies so much money in recent years, Alan Moore's politics is no excuse. That doesn't make much sense, how can you rightly judge whether or not it's "woke garbage" if you refuse to watch it?
If something I write "doesn't make much sense", then you maybe need to read it again? I don't judge whether it's woke garbage or not. There's a very distinct "if". I have no need to judge it. I don't "refuse" to watch it. I watch very little TV. Consequently, I don't bother with streaming services. Actually I may have had some, for complimentary reasons or whatever, but I've never bothered or had time to investigate it. I do watch such series occasionally, but that is only when I'm on vacation somewhere. I was commenting on your argument, which was: Because original Watchmen and Alan Moore. And my point was: This is not original Watchmen and not written by Alan Moore. I think you made a similar point about Star Trek? That was also not a good argument. For the rest, I appreciate your review on Watchmen, but I cannot comment on it.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 24, 2019 22:16:10 GMT
Watched the first episode, and think I'll give the show a pass. As a non-American it doesn't feel like it's trying very hard to draw me in. The comic and movie both had very universal themes and messages about choice and truth and consequence, even though they used American history as a backdrop too.
It didn't strike me as offensively partisan mainly because the premise is just so bonkers that it's hard to take it seriously as any kind of real commentary. I'm sure someone is going to get more out if it than I did though.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 25, 2019 15:34:20 GMT
Yeah, those complaining that Watchmen has become "too woke" is a bit much, when you only have to read the original graphic novel (or know anything about Alan Moore's politics) to recognise that it falls on the liberal side of the political spectrum. That seems like a rather poor argument. I can't say anything about HBO's Watchmen, because I haven't watched it and don't have much plan to do so. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not. So when that's out of the way, I purchased Moore's Watchmen back in the days and loved it. Liked the more recent movie too. Doesn't matter, I still hate woke culture and everything it does to our society, with a passion. And I never regarded Watchmen or Alan Moore as the same. In fact, I think I've heard him say something along the same lines. The point being, if HBO's Watchmen is the same ugly, stupid, pandering, preaching, woke garbage that is losing media companies so much money in recent years, Alan Moore's politics is no excuse. I'd need to have a working definition of "woke culture" to know whether it even applies to the TV show -- I suppose whether I care about this myself is immaterial. Besides "stuff bevethesda doesn't like," of course. What have you got?
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Nov 25, 2019 17:55:34 GMT
That seems like a rather poor argument. I can't say anything about HBO's Watchmen, because I haven't watched it and don't have much plan to do so. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not. So when that's out of the way, I purchased Moore's Watchmen back in the days and loved it. Liked the more recent movie too. Doesn't matter, I still hate woke culture and everything it does to our society, with a passion. And I never regarded Watchmen or Alan Moore as the same. In fact, I think I've heard him say something along the same lines. The point being, if HBO's Watchmen is the same ugly, stupid, pandering, preaching, woke garbage that is losing media companies so much money in recent years, Alan Moore's politics is no excuse. I'd need to have a working definition of "woke culture" to know whether it even applies to the TV show -- I suppose whether I care about this myself is immaterial. Besides "stuff bevethesda doesn't like," of course. What have you got? What have I got what?
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Post by Hier0phant on Nov 25, 2019 18:17:13 GMT
Excluding the the show's propaganda it tenuosly references Moore's original work, and thematically has fuck all to do with the original. It's a blatant cash grab that make's DC's recent exploitation of the IP seem earnest by contrast. Yes i'll say it, Doomsday Clock is shit too.
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Post by Lavochkin on Nov 25, 2019 21:35:07 GMT
Yeah, those complaining that Watchmen has become "too woke" is a bit much, when you only have to read the original graphic novel (or know anything about Alan Moore's politics) to recognise that it falls on the liberal side of the political spectrum. That seems like a rather poor argument. I can't say anything about HBO's Watchmen, because I haven't watched it and don't have much plan to do so. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not. So when that's out of the way, I purchased Moore's Watchmen back in the days and loved it. Liked the more recent movie too. Doesn't matter, I still hate woke culture and everything it does to our society, with a passion. And I never regarded Watchmen or Alan Moore as the same. In fact, I think I've heard him say something along the same lines. The point being, if HBO's Watchmen is the same ugly, stupid, pandering, preaching, woke garbage that is losing media companies so much money in recent years, Alan Moore's politics is no excuse. I have a nose for white supremacy and you reek of bleach.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Nov 26, 2019 8:08:48 GMT
That seems like a rather poor argument. I can't say anything about HBO's Watchmen, because I haven't watched it and don't have much plan to do so. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not. So when that's out of the way, I purchased Moore's Watchmen back in the days and loved it. Liked the more recent movie too. Doesn't matter, I still hate woke culture and everything it does to our society, with a passion. And I never regarded Watchmen or Alan Moore as the same. In fact, I think I've heard him say something along the same lines. The point being, if HBO's Watchmen is the same ugly, stupid, pandering, preaching, woke garbage that is losing media companies so much money in recent years, Alan Moore's politics is no excuse. I have a nose for white supremacy and you reek of bleach. Oh, really? In my experience, people who think they "have a nose for white supremacy", suffer from a grotesquely distorted perception of reality. The term is mainly and frequently used by fascists (left) as a smear to shut down dialogue and silence differing opinions, by invalidating, demonizing, and "canceling" opponents. In reality, there are only a very small number of actual "white supremacists". "Bleach" you say? You seriously think I tried to make my Avatar "whiter"?
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Post by Lavochkin on Nov 26, 2019 9:25:50 GMT
I have a nose for white supremacy and you reek of bleach. Oh, really? In my experience, people who think they "have a nose for white supremacy", suffer from a grotesquely distorted perception of reality. The term is mainly and frequently used by fascists (left) as a smear to shut down dialogue and silence differing opinions, by invalidating, demonizing, and "canceling" opponents. In reality, there are only a very small number of actual "white supremacists". "Bleach" you say? You seriously think I tried to make my Avatar "whiter"? Was quoting a character from the first ep, Lol.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 26, 2019 11:35:45 GMT
Was quoting a character from the first ep, Lol. One uttered by the character to justify having impulsively kidnapped another citizen on vague suspicion of racism, yeah. B. Hieronymus Da 's response to your quote and implied accusation seems perfectly warranted to me. It's a pretty messed-up thing to say to another person over something like a tv-series discussion, even as a joke, which I assume it was. People feeling inspired by it to casually throw lines like that out there definitely isn't an argument for the series not being "woke garbage", though I'd personally call it something else. "Paranoid political fantasy", maybe. At least based on that first episode.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 26, 2019 16:17:01 GMT
An odd note from the new Peteypedia stuff (itals mine):
Robert Deschaines all over again? Not for psychic powers this time since Captain Metropolis didn't have any. I suppose Veidt could have already had an early version of the memory-recovery technology Trieu would later mass-market, but what did Gardner know that Veidt would have wanted to know? HJ's secret identity? I can't see a reason for caring since Veidt didn't know about the Cyclops technology. (I can't see any scenario where Veidt did know about Cyclops, because he could have found HJ and the events of the comic would have played out quite differently if Veidt had gotten his hands on that tech.)
Laurie Blake's memo is fun:
Anyone else catch the Bourquin easter egg?
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