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Post by colfoley on Nov 4, 2019 22:11:51 GMT
The commentary on the engine difficulties are overblown. With whatever engine(s) they were using before they made ME 3 and DAO...extremely buggy games that were less then ideal from an RP or combat perspective.
With Frostbite they made Inquisition and Andromeda, still buggy perhaps, but quite functional from an RP standpoint.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 4, 2019 23:02:21 GMT
Right, and there’s a pretty good reason for that. Teasers are aimed at the truly diehard fans, because we’re only people paying attention this early in the process. Diehard fans usually know what's the full story about or where it's going. Amusingly, I suspect that Bioware didn't expect this big and enthusiastic of reaction to their cryptic and hardcore fan-coded teaser, which means that either the hardcore fans base is bigger than expected or quite a lot of players actually paid more attention what happened beyond a surface-level tiff with Corypheus. All the more reason to invest in that plot. I'm not sure if they can overshadow Solas (maybe in later chapter?) considering that they seem to be directly tied to his story and especially his past. Less so Blight, ATM, but he's sufficiently terrified of it and there are hints to suggest that the thing that's spurred him to act and imperfectly save the world may be, in fact, the Blight in its full glory. The Titans and their current state, on the other hand, have already been confirmed to have a lot to do with Solas - he seems to not only have witnessed their defeat, but directly contributed to it - if he wasn't the mastermind behind it. So, however the Titans may overshadow Solas, it wouldn't be a stretch to suspect that the way to understand them or their predicament may be through him as well. So, similar like with Evanuris. Or the whole of Thedas covered with his Veil. Or what happened in the past that led to it all. Either way, he sits at the very center of it - and while I'm not sure how many concrete answers we're going to get to many of the big questions (or even the main question of 'why the world is how it is now?') I don't think it's intention of Bioware to keep distracting us much from what they've been building-up to all those years. The newcomers are either going to enjoy the surface story or be like me after DAI and play other games, sit on wikis and forums in order to get the full story, lol. Anyway, so far I think that DA4 will be largely us chasing Solas an his minions through eluvians, traveling to remote places and playing inquisitor detective to piece together what's happened in the past in order to understand Solas and how to counter him - all of this on the backdrop of Qunari-Tevinter conflict at its height (being holed up in besieged Minrathous and it serving as a base of operations when we don't travel elsewhere via eluvains...). So - ultimately DA4 may be very Solas-focused, but not necessarily ending hi story or with or Veil removal. Heck, I have to wonder if this is even his goal now, because it doesn't necessarily have to be - tearing down the Veil was plan A, prior to Cory, Inky absorbing the Anchor and destruction of the Orb. For all we know his plan may result with something else entirely - or perhaps his actions will spur some sort of longer process that will ultimately result with the Veil collapsing at a later date, for example. That way we may deal with Solas in DA4 and deal with the Veil later on (IF this is where things are going).
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Post by colfoley on Nov 4, 2019 23:11:28 GMT
We have at least three factions in DA4 that could form a basis for a main plot. The Tevinter political, the Qunari political, and Solas. Two of those three could result in a lot of infighting as well as worrying about external threats.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 4, 2019 23:19:54 GMT
Storywise I don’t see how making it inevitable is a good idea. If that was the case, why have the entire Trespasser plot, especially the end conversation with Solas and at Haven talking about stopping him? Prophecies don’t always come true, and others not in the way you think. Just ask the Jedi about the Chosen One prophecy. I would guess that stopping him means he doesn’t do it. Maybe an rogue AoF agent, or some other faction does the final deed, which could affect how carefully it’s done or with what goals. We know from Corypheus that there are exceptionally bad ways for the Veil to be destroyed, ways that not even Solas is onboard with. I know I overuse the Fade=internet analogy a lot, but the rollout method matters a lot. Introducing the internet to a culture is extremely disruptive, but there are ways to do it that are more/less disruptive. Solas is jaded about this because he comes from a culture so steeped in the internet the Fade that it was hard to see all the benefits through all the enslavement to toxic, viral ideas the Evanuris. He saw the end state, the state we’re just on the cusp of IRL, where the internet the Fade is so integrated in daily life that we only notice it when it unleashes demons. I am going to studiously avoid referencing any real world politics. But like, it seems like it didn’t even occur to him that cutting off the internet the Fade would destroy elven medical advances immortality. In short, I think removing the Veil is more of a mixed bag than fatalistic!Zoomer Solas makes it out to be. The Veil removal might be inevitable, but how it happens + the surrounding societal conditions could make a huge difference in whether it’s a net positive or negative. While I agree that Solas may not be one to ultimately remove the Veil (if this is where all of this is going), I'm not sure that analogy works, given that we know Solas DIDN'T want to remove the internet Fade - it's just that he thought that he hadn't have the choice in the matter. We know from Trespasser that his first plan was slave rebellion - he's led it despite being something of a reluctant hero. He went with the the Veil only after Evanuris killed Mythal, at which point 'every other alternative was worse'. So I think the more apt analogy was something like a fatal virus that has threatened entire global electricity grid. We can survive without the Internet - but shutting down all of electricity around the globe? That will not just destroy medical advances, but make most of our medical equipment not work and result with even worse destruction in all aspects of modern civilization. Solas appears to have mounted an effort to try and prevent the spread of the virus, but ultimately he was put in a situation - shut the Internet Fade or let something worse happen.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 4, 2019 23:23:53 GMT
We have at least three factions in DA4 that could form a basis for a main plot. The Tevinter political, the Qunari political, and Solas. Two of those three could result in a lot of infighting as well as worrying about external threats. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if things led to a situation where we'd have to choose between picking Tevinter or the Qunari to ally with, in order to make the final push against Solas's plans - which would be hilarious, TBH Two factions with a pretty darn bad reputation may yet directly contribute to saving the world as Thedosians know it
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Post by colfoley on Nov 5, 2019 0:07:14 GMT
I've been seeing a lot of news on my feed saying 'is BioWare teasing news on a DA 4 release date? Find out!' And while I doubt it it would actually be hillarious to see the collective flinching around here if this 'leak' not ends up being true.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 5, 2019 0:57:34 GMT
I would guess that stopping him means he doesn’t do it. Maybe an rogue AoF agent, or some other faction does the final deed, which could affect how carefully it’s done or with what goals. We know from Corypheus that there are exceptionally bad ways for the Veil to be destroyed, ways that not even Solas is onboard with. I know I overuse the Fade=internet analogy a lot, but the rollout method matters a lot. Introducing the internet to a culture is extremely disruptive, but there are ways to do it that are more/less disruptive. Solas is jaded about this because he comes from a culture so steeped in the internet the Fade that it was hard to see all the benefits through all the enslavement to toxic, viral ideas the Evanuris. He saw the end state, the state we’re just on the cusp of IRL, where the internet the Fade is so integrated in daily life that we only notice it when it unleashes demons. I am going to studiously avoid referencing any real world politics. But like, it seems like it didn’t even occur to him that cutting off the internet the Fade would destroy elven medical advances immortality. In short, I think removing the Veil is more of a mixed bag than fatalistic!Zoomer Solas makes it out to be. The Veil removal might be inevitable, but how it happens + the surrounding societal conditions could make a huge difference in whether it’s a net positive or negative. While I agree that Solas may not be one to ultimately remove the Veil (if this is where all of this is going), I'm not sure that analogy works, given that we know Solas DIDN'T want to remove the internet Fade - it's just that he thought that he hadn't have the choice in the matter. We know from Trespasser that his first plan was slave rebellion - he's led it despite being something of a reluctant hero. He went with the the Veil only after Evanuris killed Mythal, at which point 'every other alternative was worse'. So I think the more apt analogy was something like a fatal virus that has threatened entire global electricity grid. We can survive without the Internet - but shutting down all of electricity around the globe? That will not just destroy medical advances, but make most of our medical equipment not work and result with even worse destruction in all aspects of modern civilization. Solas appears to have mounted an effort to try and prevent the spread of the virus, but ultimately he was put in a situation - shut the Internet Fade or let something worse happen. Yeah, it’s maybe a better parallel to a decade or two in the future from now, when people are a lot more connected than they are. We already see waves of “mind viruses” on the internet, in the form of radicalization. It’s a double-edged sword. Marginalized groups can more easily find communities and organize, but on the flip side, people with extremist views can also coordinate/spread their messages much more easily. Advances in connectivity are going to speed up those coordination cycles, both good and bad. Also, the ideas themselves will be able to mutate much faster, raising the probability of really “infectious” ideas that (by sheer bad luck) push all the weak points in the human brain. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to imagine a future where the Blight is a good analogue for some extremely virulent ideology. This is something we’re really going to have to wrestle with as a society, because free speech is valuable but also we have stupid ape brains that didn’t evolve in an environment with internet, so good ideas don’t always “win”.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 5, 2019 6:15:29 GMT
I mean, never mind that even if DAI and DA4 were a year apart they'd have to remind people of the franchise and where we stopped at anyway. Realistically, majority of players won't remember most of the stuff beyond the fundamentals regardless how good the story/game was. The world now moves at insane pace and most would still need some help to zone in on the story/world/mood. To piggyback on this point, I recently met someone who is into gaming, likes Dragon Age, enjoyed playing DAI, and is looking forward to the next one, but couldn't immediately recall Solas's name or some of the other followers. It's important to remember that the majority of gamers are not like us on these forums, who pore over every last detail and follow the game's development. These people will still be around. They'll remember they enjoyed Dragon Age and buy the next game. They don't need a continual reminder that the franchise exists.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 5, 2019 6:46:45 GMT
I mean, never mind that even if DAI and DA4 were a year apart they'd have to remind people of the franchise and where we stopped at anyway. Realistically, majority of players won't remember most of the stuff beyond the fundamentals regardless how good the story/game was. The world now moves at insane pace and most would still need some help to zone in on the story/world/mood. To piggyback on this point, I recently met someone who is into gaming, likes Dragon Age, enjoyed playing DAI, and is looking forward to the next one, but couldn't immediately recall Solas's name or some of the other followers. It's important to remember that the majority of gamers are not like us on these forums, who pore over every last detail and follow the game's development. These people will still be around. They'll remember they enjoyed Dragon Age and buy the next game. They don't need a continual reminder that the franchise exists. And a good game will pull in new players regardless of where it sits in the series. Witcher 3 brought in millions of players who had never played any of the previous games. Inquisition did too. It went from selling 2m copies of DA2 to being the bestselling game BW ever had.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 5, 2019 7:45:20 GMT
To piggyback on this point, I recently met someone who is into gaming, likes Dragon Age, enjoyed playing DAI, and is looking forward to the next one, but couldn't immediately recall Solas's name or some of the other followers. It's important to remember that the majority of gamers are not like us on these forums, who pore over every last detail and follow the game's development. These people will still be around. They'll remember they enjoyed Dragon Age and buy the next game. They don't need a continual reminder that the franchise exists. And a good game will pull in new players regardless of where it sits in the series. Witcher 3 brought in millions of players who had never played any of the previous games. Inquisition did too. It went from selling 2m copies of DA2 to being the bestselling game BW ever had. And most recent and most successful example of late is probably Assassin's Creed Odyssey. Hell I only got Mass Effect 2 when it was ported to the PS in the first place and that was the middle of the series in prep for ME 3, and fell in love with RPGs, Mass Effect, and well loving BioWare really didn't happen till Inquisition...fully.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 5, 2019 9:26:31 GMT
The commentary on the engine difficulties are overblown. With whatever engine(s) they were using before they made ME 3 and DAO...extremely buggy games that were less then ideal from an RP or combat perspective. With Frostbite they made Inquisition and Andromeda, still buggy perhaps, but quite functional from an RP standpoint. So then Bioware are simply not the best coders. Works for me as well. Either way, doesn't fill me with confidence.
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Post by Iddy on Nov 5, 2019 11:51:14 GMT
I mean, never mind that even if DAI and DA4 were a year apart they'd have to remind people of the franchise and where we stopped at anyway. Realistically, majority of players won't remember most of the stuff beyond the fundamentals regardless how good the story/game was. The world now moves at insane pace and most would still need some help to zone in on the story/world/mood. If you're going to go this long between releases, changing protagonists is a good idea. You're going to have to do all the intro stuff anyway; might as well have it make some sense. It's hard to do even in best cases. Remember ME1 Shepard maybe not knowing who the Protheans were? Particularly enraging since you needed to ask that dopey question for an achievement. Maybe, but the Inquisitor must be involved in some capacity. It would be wrong not to.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 5, 2019 12:34:35 GMT
The commentary on the engine difficulties are overblown. With whatever engine(s) they were using before they made ME 3 and DAO...extremely buggy games that were less then ideal from an RP or combat perspective. With Frostbite they made Inquisition and Andromeda, still buggy perhaps, but quite functional from an RP standpoint. So then Bioware are simply not the best coders. Works for me as well. Either way, doesn't fill me with confidence.
Ok, programmer rant incoming. There’s two kinds of complexity in code: engineered complexity (i.e. inexperienced coder/bad patterns/etc) and what I would call fundamental complexity (i.e. “it is literally impossible to make this code any simpler, because it would remove required functionality”). The higher the total complexity of a project, the more oportunities there are for bugs. So bugs can come from eng mistakes, but a lot of bugs actually originate from the product/design stage. The higher the fundamental complexity, the higher the chance that some edge case is under-defined/conflicting with something else in the product spec, meaning that every engineering choice is wrong. You could be the best coder in the world, doesn’t matter. You cannot code yourself out of a spec conflict. The best you can do is notice it and discuss it with Product so they can change the requirements. But for very complex product specs, even the engineers and QA may not notice subtler conflicts. The spec is too big for any one person to understand in total. This is true even for much simpler products, no one can hold the full spec in their mind. Some conflicts always sneak by. Videogames, particularly branching RPGs with CC and party-based combat, have massive specs and absurdly high fundamental complexity. Holding programmer skill level equal, they’re going to be buggier than other types of games, and WAY buggier than, say, a productivity app. Complexity grows exponentially, not linearly, with the number of features interacting with each other, so a “small” increase in # of features is a huge jump in potential bug sites, especially if there are a lot of features already.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 5, 2019 12:52:16 GMT
Ok, programmer rant incoming. There’s two kinds of complexity in code: engineered complexity (i.e. inexperienced coder/bad patterns/etc) and what I would call fundamental complexity (i.e. “it is literally impossible to make this code any simpler, because it would remove required functionality”). The higher the total complexity of a project, the more oportunities there are for bugs. So bugs can come from eng mistakes, but a lot of bugs actually originate from the product/design stage. The higher the fundamental complexity, the higher the chance that some edge case is under-defined/conflicting with something else in the product spec, meaning that every engineering choice is wrong. You could be the best coder in the world, doesn’t matter. You cannot code yourself out of a spec conflict. The best you can do is notice it and discuss it with Product so they can change the requirements. But for very complex product specs, even the engineers and QA may not notice subtler conflicts. The spec is too big for any one person to understand in total. This is true even for much simpler products, no one can hold the full spec in their mind. Some conflicts always sneak by. Videogames, particularly branching RPGs with CC and party-based combat, have massive specs and absurdly high fundamental complexity. Holding programmer skill level equal, they’re going to be buggier than other types of games, and WAY buggier than, say, a productivity app. Complexity grows exponentially, not linearly, with the number of features interacting with each other, so a “small” increase in # of features is a huge jump in potential bug sites, especially if there are a lot of features already. Oh, I believe it. People give Bethesda crap for their buggy games but that's a case of high complexity, right? There's an infinute number of combinations and it's impossible to playtest them all. Never had any issues with that kind of bugginess.
I was more talking about knowing how to handle an engine. My question would be: is the engine just that shitty that no amount of talented people can make it work well for RPGs? Is Bioware struggling more than others with it due to others not making RPGs or because Bioware just struggles with Frostbite altogether? I'm not talking about quest bugs and other narrative flow issues. I'm talking more about the general gameplay framework such as world design, reactivity, third person camera, combat.
Didn't mean to offend any programmers with my ignorance. I'm just tring to understand why Bioware seems to struggle more with Frostbite than other EA studios. Maybe that impression is wrong, I dunno.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 5, 2019 13:17:25 GMT
Ok, programmer rant incoming. There’s two kinds of complexity in code: engineered complexity (i.e. inexperienced coder/bad patterns/etc) and what I would call fundamental complexity (i.e. “it is literally impossible to make this code any simpler, because it would remove required functionality”). The higher the total complexity of a project, the more oportunities there are for bugs. So bugs can come from eng mistakes, but a lot of bugs actually originate from the product/design stage. The higher the fundamental complexity, the higher the chance that some edge case is under-defined/conflicting with something else in the product spec, meaning that every engineering choice is wrong. You could be the best coder in the world, doesn’t matter. You cannot code yourself out of a spec conflict. The best you can do is notice it and discuss it with Product so they can change the requirements. But for very complex product specs, even the engineers and QA may not notice subtler conflicts. The spec is too big for any one person to understand in total. This is true even for much simpler products, no one can hold the full spec in their mind. Some conflicts always sneak by. Videogames, particularly branching RPGs with CC and party-based combat, have massive specs and absurdly high fundamental complexity. Holding programmer skill level equal, they’re going to be buggier than other types of games, and WAY buggier than, say, a productivity app. Complexity grows exponentially, not linearly, with the number of features interacting with each other, so a “small” increase in # of features is a huge jump in potential bug sites, especially if there are a lot of features already. Oh, I believe it. People give Bethesda crap for their buggy games but that's a case of high complexity, right? There's an infinute number of combinations and it's impossible to playtest them all. Never had any issues with that kind of bugginess.
I was more talking about knowing how to handle an engine. My question would be: is the engine just that shitty that no amount of talented people can make it work well for RPGs? Is Bioware struggling more than others with it due to others not making RPGs or because Bioware just struggles with Frostbite altogether? I'm not talking about quest bugs and other narrative flow issues. I'm talking more about the general gameplay framework such as world design, reactivity, third person camera, combat.
Didn't mean to offend any programmers with my ignorance. I'm just tring to understand why Bioware seems to struggle more with Frostbite than other EA studios. Maybe that impression is wrong, I dunno.
There’s an interesting push-pull when it comes to incorporating any kind of third-party code in the codebase. In isolation, the third-party code increases fundamental complexity, because it needs to support use cases other than your use case. However, the third-party code usually* has more testers banging on it than just you, so it’s getting way more QA (and live user testing) than your homerolled solution would. I would imagine that the “live user testing” aspect is particularly valuable for videogame studios, because they have way less access to beta and A/B testing than non-game applications do. If a productivity app rolls out features incrementally, users expect that. If a game studio quietly whispers “live service elements”, everyone loses their entire tits. Betaing and A/B testing are the only kind of testing that scales gracefully with application complexity, and they’re almost completely shut off to singleplayer game developers. Like, people razz on developers for using beta users as “free QA”, but it’s the only way to get a large enough QA team to cover a typical app’s complexity... never mind the typical game. Plus, users are much better at testing the important logic, because they’re using the product naturally, unlike QA teams that have to prioritize what they can test. --- * unless your application is extremely popular, which is why the Googles and Facebooks of the world have a reputation for homerolling stuff instead of using pre-made libraries. The math is completely different.
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Post by michaeln7 on Nov 5, 2019 15:55:33 GMT
I'll be 60, and possibly still crying, before I can enjoy DA4 Still, an April 2022 release? Huh, close enough for a 31st birthday present for myself... I can work with that.
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 5, 2019 16:03:17 GMT
I'll be 60, and possibly still crying, before I can enjoy DA4 Still, an April 2022 release? Huh, close enough for a 31st birthday present for myself... I can work with that. They haven't said yet which month it'll come out in, only that it's likely to fall sometime after March 31st (the end of their FY). My guess is it'll wind up being a Fall 2022 release (probably November) as BW traditionally launches their games in the first quarter of the year, or the last quarter.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 5, 2019 16:07:32 GMT
Still, an April 2022 release? Huh, close enough for a 31st birthday present for myself... I can work with that. It's unlikely it's going to be an April 2022 release. There is no FY 2023 guidance yet, so not till after March 2022, doesn't automatically mean April 2022. In so far, it means it's going to release at some time between March 22nd 2022 and heat death of the universe. Without EA FY 2023 guidance stating otherwise, there is no guarantee it will release in 2022. All this announcement means is there are no plans to release DA4 before 2022 and there is no guidance plan for FY 2023 yet, but it might, or might not, include DA4 when that guidance plan is made.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Nov 5, 2019 16:44:28 GMT
Still, an April 2022 release? Huh, close enough for a 31st birthday present for myself... I can work with that. It's unlikely it's going to be an April 2022 release. There is no FY 2023 guidance yet, so not till after March 2022, doesn't automatically mean April 2022. In so far, it means it's going to release at some time between March 22nd 2022 and heat death of the universe. Without EA FY 2023 guidance stating otherwise, there is no guarantee it will release in 2022. All this announcement means is there are no plans to release DA4 before 2022 and there is no guidance plan for FY 2023 yet, but it might, or might not, include DA4 when that guidance plan is made. (Disgusted noise.)
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 5, 2019 16:46:20 GMT
Well, I'm sorry, but that's what it means.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 5, 2019 19:52:58 GMT
Well, I'm sorry, but that's what it means. Agreed. A much more likely timeframe is either in line with DAO and DAI (November 2022) or MEA/Anthem (Feb/March 2023).
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Post by Ieldra on Nov 5, 2019 21:33:34 GMT
So....2022. That'll be my 45th year as a gamer and I'll be beginning the seventh decade of my life. The thing is, I don't actually feel old.
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Little Bengel
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Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Nov 5, 2019 21:51:34 GMT
So....2022. That'll be my 45th year as a gamer and I'll be beginning the seventh decade of my life. The thing is, I don't actually feel old. It's not the years that matter, it's the mileage.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 5, 2019 22:03:14 GMT
Still, an April 2022 release? Huh, close enough for a 31st birthday present for myself... I can work with that. It's unlikely it's going to be an April 2022 release. There is no FY 2023 guidance yet, so not till after March 2022, doesn't automatically mean April 2022. In so far, it means it's going to release at some time between March 22nd 2022 and heat death of the universe. Without EA FY 2023 guidance stating otherwise, there is no guarantee it will release in 2022. All this announcement means is there are no plans to release DA4 before 2022 and there is no guidance plan for FY 2023 yet, but it might, or might not, include DA4 when that guidance plan is made. can't be much later then 2023 though.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Nov 5, 2019 22:09:17 GMT
The best part is how your profile pic matches up with this statement so well
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