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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2019 19:51:20 GMT
I've been replaying the noble origin and this time it struck me even more that our mother's story about our father's recent visit to Orlais had to have been connected with Cailan's plan to divorce Anora and marry Celene. She maintains that the reason an Orlesian noble mistook our father for the king was that he was drunk. However, why would he even think that the king might be in the country? After the history between Orlais and Ferelden, it was highly unlikely that either monarch would be making a friendly visit to their neighbours. So clearly the noble must have been close to Celene and knew that the king's representative was visiting. I can't think any reason why Bryce would be visiting Orlais otherwise.
I know from a previous run that if we jump forward to our later confrontation with Howe in Denerim he accuses our father of being a traitor. Now if you are only playing the vanilla game this seem empty rhetoric but if you have played Return to Ostagar then you are aware of Cailan's overtures towards Celene and that Eamon had been encouraging him to put aside Anora, so it is possible that it was Eamon who also encouraged Cailan to start the correspondence with Celene. So it would seem like there was a conspiracy involving Cailan, Eamon and Bryce Cousland, the latter acting as go-between carrying the correspondence because Cailan didn't want to trust it to anyone else. Now only an innocent or an idiot would think that uniting the two countries by marriage would be a good thing for Ferelden. It was obvious that it would be used by Orlais in the future to annex Ferelden once more. In fact had the Chevaliers on the border been allowed admittance to "assist" with the Blight, it is entirely possible that once the Blight had been dealt with they would have taken the opportunity of occupying strategic locations, just as they had following earlier Blights in other countries. So carrying on like this behind the scenes without consulting with the Landsmeet was tantamount to treason. which is exactly what Howe accused Bryce of.
If you take Loghain with you to Ostagar he sounds as though he was unaware of the plot to marry Celene, although he makes his feelings on the matter very clear. However, when we are in camp at the beginning of the game we are told that the king was arguing with Loghain about the queen. We are never told exactly what sparked the confrontation but reading between the lines, it is probable that Cailan let slip about being advised to divorce Anora.
As things stand with the dialogue in the game even Anora suggests that her father has become paranoid about Orlais but in the light of the evidence Loghain's suspicions would seem justified. Whilst you can take the option to spare Loghain to join the Wardens, the one thing you can't do is agree with him or use the information you gained at Ostagar to discredit Eamon. If Return to Ostagar had been included in the main game (as it should have been) may be this would have been an option. So if it had been, would you have taken it?
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 4,822 Likes: 11,917
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ladyofnemesis
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Nov 4, 2019 20:41:31 GMT
finding out Bryce Cousland was a semi-traitor and allowing their son/daughter to side with Loghain...hm... I dunno, I like the Human noble origin, but having this implication (whether true or not) would've made for interesting new role-playing opportunities
as for siding with Loghain, depending on my Wardens I do tend to do side with him at the Landsmeet in some cut content it would've been possible to keep both Loghain and Alistair in the party, and also have both be present at Return to Ostagar arguing about certain aspects of what happened during the battle I kind of wish they would've taken that route and allowed it to remain part of the game, as much as I like Alistair, Loghain often makes very interesting remarks and choices granted most of those choices stem in paranoia and fear, I mean, I'd feel the same if my son-in-law was going to hand over the country I fought to protect for years on a silver platter
as for discrediting Eamon? Hell yeah! out of all the nobles in Origins (barring the ones in the dwarven assembly) he seems the most cunning one out for his own gain (aside from Howe, naturally) he aims to put Alistair on the throne whether the guy likes to or not, and makes every effort to do so, even ousting the current (widowed) queen. it's also worth noting he seems surprised if you gain Anora's cooperation by arranging a political marriage with Alistair Warden: I've arranged a marriage between Alistair and Anora
Eamon: Maker's breath, you didn't use blood magic did you? Warden: ...seriously? and if not choosing the boon he remains in Denerim to 'advice' Alistair and/or Anora, thus gaining a rather high position at court
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Post by Iddy on Nov 5, 2019 12:33:15 GMT
To what end? Siding with Loghain means failing to end the Blight.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2019 18:25:26 GMT
To what end? Siding with Loghain means failing to end the Blight. Only as currently written because he doesn't trust the Warden. After all the wardens aren't meant to dabble in politics and yet the PC does so twice, in Orzammar and then at the Landsmeet. However, if the Warden presented the information they found at Ostagar to the Landsmeet in order to discredit Eamon (and Cailan), then Loghain would likely change his opinion of them and support their future action against the darkspawn. After all, if you recruit him into the Wardens you can win his approval enough that he will willingly offer himself in your place against the Arch-demon. When my Cousland did this, having been accepted by Anora as her consort (and effectively side-lined Eamon and Alistair), Loghain even went so far as to declare that he was confident that he was leaving Ferelden in safe hands. So if this was a possible option later, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that it could have been at the Landsmeet.
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Noxluxe
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 6, 2019 6:00:10 GMT
In my mind I do side with Loghain in most playthroughs. My characters rarely share Alistair's instant conviction that Loghain is a traitor and that his decision at Ostagar was malicious, and his hunt for the PC is really mostly a minor nuisance, and one that's fairly understandable from his perspective.
Accruing enough influence over the course of the game to confront him in a setting where he has to take you seriously, beating him around the head enough to make him listen and then working together from there makes perfect sense to me.
I just wish we could have left him with control of the army instead of giving it to bloody Arl Eamon. Or Maker forbid, Alistair. Either of whom promptly move the gathered alliance's fighting forces to Redcliffe for no reason while the darkspawn are marching on Denerim because of course it is.
An option to formally offer him control of all the forced granted to you by treaty, convince Riordan to share everything he knows about the Darkspawn with everyone important so effective battle plans can actually be made, and have Loghain throw Howe under the bus and scapegoat him for the Cousland massacre and all the slavery and whatnot would have been a cool way to end the civil war subplot. I'd have gone for that in a heartbeat. Screw Eamon and his manipulations.
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