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Post by Sokemis on Dec 2, 2019 0:50:54 GMT
Lots of good points. It's my understanding that 30 years is the rough average, since both Senior Grey Wardens we're intimately familiar with - Duncan and Riordan - joined very young and made it to their late forties or early fifties without experiencing the Calling, not to mention Avernus' lifespan exceeding even that of a normal human by double. Good points as well. Hmm, I'll have to look up a source for Warden life expectancy (30 yrs tops vs 30 yrs average). Regarding the three Wardens you referenced though. Duncan: Think he was about at the 30 yrs Warden mark, and according to Alistair was hearing his Calling (in one of the camp conversations). Riordan: Not sure how long he'd been a Warden. When talking about killing the Archdemon he says he'll take the final blow because he's the eldest Warden and "the taint won't spare me much longer" - possibly started hearing his Calling? Avernus: Don't think we can really count him as anything other than an outlier - given how his lifespan has been artificially extended for so long due to blood magic/unnatural means. Though in that particular instance the Warden has even more duties and responsibilities that they're forsaking to start looking for the cure. Not necessarily - Was she forsaking her royal duties during Awakening? Alistair is still King and there ruling Ferelden. And by searching for the cure, she's trying to save the lives of both of the country's rulers. (And by removing the blight from them, making it more likely for them to bear an heir.) Is the Warden mentioned in Trespasser at all (haven't played it yet myself)? I'm curious if they've been completely gone in the time between Inquisition and Trespasser, or could the Warden have returned home (at least for times) while still trying to find a cure?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 2, 2019 1:51:19 GMT
Riordan: Not sure how long he'd been a Warden. When talking about killing the Archdemon he says he'll take the final blow because he's the eldest Warden and "the taint won't spare me much longer" - possibly started hearing his Calling? Riordan was in the same situation as Duncan since the two had their Joining together.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Dec 2, 2019 11:30:42 GMT
Riordan: Not sure how long he'd been a Warden. When talking about killing the Archdemon he says he'll take the final blow because he's the eldest Warden and "the taint won't spare me much longer" - possibly started hearing his Calling? Riordan was in the same situation as Duncan since the two had their Joining together. That doesn't necessarily mean he's started hearing his yet, since it's a bit random. But it does mean that Riordan very well could have.
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Post by Blaze on Dec 2, 2019 13:36:21 GMT
No,mate... I'll let you know when i do! impostor! the hero of fereldan is a dalish not a human, you silly goat!
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Post by Iddy on Dec 2, 2019 13:39:42 GMT
No,mate... I'll let you know when i do! impostor! the hero of fereldan is a dalish not a human, you silly goat! I can confirm that.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 2, 2019 13:42:13 GMT
Doesn't the Epilogue mention the Warden, if they romanced Leliana, that they have since returned to her? So, whatever they were doing, they're back. Leliana's epilogue can mention her and the Warden "occasionally reuniting". That phrasing doesn't scream to me that they've finished whatever they set out to do. Noxluxe - I would like to make two disclaimers: 1) I'm answering off of memory here, and it's 3 am so I can't 100% vouch for said memory, lol 2) Didn't read through everyone's responses thoroughly, so apologize if I'm repeating something that's already been addressed... -snip- I really hope DA4 addresses the HoF's quest in at least someway... Lots of good points. It's my understanding that 30 years is the rough average, since both Senior Grey Wardens we're intimately familiar with - Duncan and Riordan - joined very young and made it to their late forties or early fifties without experiencing the Calling, not to mention Avernus' lifespan exceeding even that of a normal human by double. And teenaged recruits must absolutely be the exception. Most would have to be somewhere between Jory's and Daveth's ages to have amassed enough proficiency or notoriety in almost anything to earn their entry ticket. That would put the average Warden's final age between the mid fifties and the early sixties, at least of the ones who actually live long enough for the Calling to set in. Which I suspect isn't actually that many, unless non-Fereldan Wardens are truly lazy bastards. I have no problem using real-world tendencies to decide out how likely an average soldier or mercenary would be to survive to old age. Poverty and disease are shown to be a serious problem in DA just as it is here, and magical healing isn't something peasants can take for granted anywhere in the setting, even in the army. If you want to you can even go around each game and count the elders actually present in the hubs. Child mortality is hard to calculate around, sure, but suggesting that the world might have been kind to old people in pre-industrial times of any kind is ridiculous. The cure potentially having wider applications is an interesting idea, but that's not how the quest is framed in the Warden's letter. And if what you're suggesting is even remotely possible then the Tevinter Grey Wardens have no doubt been conducting that research for the past thousand years. In which case my military-minded dwarven princess would have less than nothing to add. Good catch about "King Alistair" in DA2. I'd never seen that. That would indeed put the Warden's quest at around 5 years and counting by Trespasser. Though in that particular instance the Warden has even more duties and responsibilities that they're forsaking to start looking for the cure. Sigh. Why couldn't they just leave our PC's alone? I vaguely remember something about how Gaider regrets that 30 years line, since it actually varies greatly. Some Grey Wardens hear the Calling much earlier.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 2, 2019 14:55:02 GMT
*deep breath* Getting rid of the useless and incompetent leadership at Weisshaupt. Rooting out big dirty Grey Warden secrets and sharing knowledge with heads of state so they can make effective battle plans during Blights and the world isn't blindsided by things like runaway ancient Magister Darkspawn again. Rounding up topsider support for the Dwarves in their efforts to retake the Deep Roads. Locating and disabling/fortifying the remaining Old Gods before they start further Blights. Campaigning to keep mages anywhere from trying to fuck around with the Black City ever again. Figuring out where the hell the Architect came from and trying to make sure there won't be any repeats of sentient Darkspawn jump-starting Blights. Helping Zevran exterminate the Crows as an example of what happens when you put out contracts on Grey Wardens in the middle of a Darkspawn invasion. Financing and assisting with all the research Avernus can humanly crank out before he dies. Sticking around and helping build a proper damned Grey Warden infrastructure in Ferelden so it won't just be two Wardens against the world next time. Putting every sovereign possible into Dwarven weapons research to find more powerful and efficient ways to murderize Darkspawn. Helping with any of the more pressing near-world-ending disasters occurring regularly around Thedas. Actually being there for their reckless magic-obsessed spouse and abomination-magnet child instead of running off trying to ensure that they might personally be able to make it to old age. *gasp* A Grey Warden's duty is to fight and resist bloody Darkspawn, whatever it takes, not to spend their best years trying to secure a retirement package. Er... we've played a game where, for several years at least, we were the leader of basically the most powerful organization in Thedas. It ultimately wielded way more power than Hero Of Ferelden ever did or could - and I see quite a few of these goals to be quite unrealistic to accomplish even by Inquisition at its prime (even if we've made strides to help with some). I mean, even if we treat DA PCs as basically superhuman I think we shouldn't overestimate their ability to accomplish things - *especially* as one individual, regardless how much of a hero they were regarded to be. Inquisitor was an even more well-renowned hero than HoF and powers that be gave them roughly 2 years before trying to wrangle them to submission. 10 years is 5 times that period. Alistair - if Grey Warden - makes it quite apparent that old accomplishments, however great, don't make things easier in the long run. Never mind that after that stunt in Inquisition Grey Wardens, as an institution, has had its reputation undermined AND they can't flash treaties to conscript people or whole factions. A small-ish, personal quest seems more realistic, especially that the ramifications of that personal quest (finding a cure or root of The Calling) could definitely have wide-spread effects for others and their causes. Also, some of the goals seem unrealistic to accomplish by anyone, at least without addressing underlying issues. Like - rounding topsider support to retake the Deep Roads? ...What? Nobody has resources to do this, even at best of times (which are almost non-existent in modern Thedas anyway). The Dwarven Empire at its height couldn't deal with the darkspawn and was ultimately destroyed by them - and the darkspawn showed up in Deep Roads BEFORE the First Blight even happened. Nobody is retaking Deep Roads without figuring out where darskpawn even comes from... with the answer, ironically, not necessarily lying where Grey Wardens usually looked for it. Like, ultimately it may be that to deal with darkspawn or Architect-like darkspawn someone may have to make yet another trip to the Black City and f*ck around with it - something you say HoF should actively campaign against. Also, wasn't locating and disabling Old Gods the EXACT plan the Orlesian Wardens had in Inquisition and one that we ultimately stopped? I mean... one didn't have to be an ancient god-like being who may have yet created the Veil to keep true Blight (not just Archdemon-led darkspawn outpurings, which are a mere symptom of a disease) at bay to see that this may not have been a good idea at all.
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Post by xerrai on Dec 2, 2019 16:32:54 GMT
I think you are expecting too much from the HoF. Even if he were to somehow rally all of Thedas to unite under a common cause, a few of these items are near impossible to achieve. Like retaking the deep roads. Even if we are really incredibly generous and assume that modern Thedas could overcome the darkspawn hoards, it will be difficult keeping the deep roads from being overrun with darkspawn again unless they put a stop to the darkspawn permanently. Locating and disabling Old Gods? Well despite the warden already having the locations, that would require traversing and overcoming the deep roads to reach them (which is why DAI's wardens resorted to summoning a demon army) which, again, would be incredibly difficult even if all of Thedas banded together. If the deep roads could have been retaken and the old gods crushed it would have been done already. Because virtually all of modern thedas agrees it would be better if the Old Gods are dead and therefore unable to start blights. And some of your other ideas are...well they aren't bad. But I do think you are overestimating how 'helpful' modern Thedas can be when faced with certain things. Like, the Chantry and several Andrastian leaders (i.e most of Thedas) would absolutely lose thier shiz if they knew of the Grey Warden's more sordid secrets. Like, blood magic is a super heavy and arguably very necessary tool for the Grey Wardens--with its principles being used in joining rituals, sealed prisons and even straight up combat--and it is very well known that southern Thedas has almost ZERO tolerance for it. Which is to say nothing of how they are going to treat the whole 'Archdemon soul transfer' ordeal and how thier ancient knowledge may conflict with Chantry teachings. Even something as seemingly benign as getting every sovereign to back dwarven weapons research is likely going to be tainted with state officials trying to get something more substantial out of the deal. Like lyrium, coin or influence. It may start out as a genuine effort to combat darkspawn at first but unless it starts killing darkspawn by the thousands to millions its just going to become another near-forgotten program like the Grey Wardens themselves--only relevant when a blight is knocking at the door. At best the HoF can help with things like internal Warden affairs and individual projects. Like your suggestions for removing the leadership as Weishaupt (though I think there may be more going on there...), restructuring Warden infrastructure in Ferelden (which he presumably did with Vigil's Keep), or helping out Avernus. Though in Avernus's case his blood magic usage would either require them staying on the downlow and/or getting a charter straight form the Divine (who will also keep it hush-hush). But as far as projects go, trying to find a cure to the calling isn't a bad endeavor provided he prepared sufficiently for it. I'm just hoping he took a look at Grey Warden records before he left.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 2, 2019 17:03:37 GMT
I vaguely remember something about how Gaider regrets that 30 years line, since it actually varies greatly. Some Grey Wardens hear the Calling much earlier. Well he shouldn't. It's not his fault that some players blow things way out of proportion without thinking of the greater context. Hell, some players even thought that the line meant living to age 30(ish), never mind that Duncan and Riordan were both clearly older than that. Alistair is not the definitive source of grey warden knowledge and it must be remembered that he is himself a new recruit. He doesn't know everything, nor should he be expected to. I realize that, due to his role in the game and investigate dialogue, that he is presented as this font of grey warden knowledge, but even he has lines acknowledging his limitations.
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 2, 2019 17:12:19 GMT
Did I say anything about expecting the Warden to personally accomplish any or all of those goals to perfect fruition? I don't think so. Obviously a lot of them are big and slow processes that might well take several lifetimes or seem impossibly complicated, but at least getting them started and/or furthering and exploring them by any means necessary is a more worthwhile pursuit than a cure for the Calling, in my opinion. I didn't mean for the Warden to go down that checklist and try to fix them immediately and elegantly one after the other, I meant for them to dedicate their time and resources to those causes in every way that seems practical, because that's how actual work is done.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 2, 2019 18:19:53 GMT
Did I say anything about expecting the Warden to personally accomplish any or all of those goals to perfect fruition? I don't think so. I also thought your post was worded in that way. Perhaps the fault is not with the reader(s).
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 2, 2019 19:29:55 GMT
I also thought your post was worded in that way. Perhaps the fault is not with the reader(s). Fair enough. I see that my wording is vague enough for that interpretation to be plausible, even though it makes some really uncharitable and - at least to my mind - unwarranted assumptions about how I must think. Which is why I responded as sarcastically as I did. Sorry for not being clearer, but I was trying to make my point without it turning into an entire thesis since it wasn't the main topic of the thread when you first asked me to elaborate.
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Post by xerrai on Dec 2, 2019 20:02:05 GMT
Did I say anything about expecting the Warden to personally accomplish any or all of those goals to perfect fruition? I don't think so. Obviously a lot of them are big and slow processes that might well take several lifetimes or seem impossibly complicated, but at least getting them started and/or furthering and exploring them by any means necessary is a more worthwhile pursuit than a cure for the Calling, in my opinion. I didn't mean for the Warden to go down that checklist and try to fix them immediately and elegantly one after the other, I meant for them to dedicate their time and resources to those causes in every way that seems practical, because that's how actual work is done. I was evaluating those goals based on your premise that the HoF would have started initiatives with "the power and knowledge they amassed over the course of Origins and Awakening". That is to say, using thier power and influence to garner the support of other powers--be it the Wardens themselves or heads of state. And obviously several of these projects can take years, I don't think I worded my rebuttals in such a way that I expected results immediately. Retaking the deep roads alone would take decades if not generations. But that's exactly the point--I think the HoF is better used to short(er) termed projects that can be completed in a single lifetime rather than anything grand scale like retaking the deep roads or disabling the old gods. The problem with those long term schemes is that it requires the full dedication and co-operation of several major world powers. And if there is one thing that is consistent in all games its that world powers cannot stay in that state for very long. At best they will unite when a major outside threat (ex. blight and qunari) threatens thier way of life, but other than that they constantly quarrel, bicker and backstab eachother. It's just the way Thedas is.
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 2, 2019 21:15:53 GMT
I was evaluating those goals based on your premise that the HoF would have started initiatives with "the power and knowledge they amassed over the course of Origins and Awakening". That is to say, using thier power and influence to garner the support of other powers--be it the Wardens themselves or heads of state. And obviously several of these projects can take years, I don't think I worded my rebuttals in such a way that I expected results immediately. Retaking the deep roads alone would take decades if not generations. But that's exactly the point--I think the HoF is better used to short(er) termed projects that can be completed in a single lifetime rather than anything grand scale like retaking the deep roads or disabling the old gods. The problem with those long term schemes is that it requires the full dedication and co-operation of several major world powers. And if there is one thing that is consistent in all games its that world powers cannot stay in that state for very long. At best they will unite when a major outside threat (ex. blight and qunari) threatens thier way of life, but other than that they constantly quarrel, bicker and backstab eachother. It's just the way Thedas is. I can see what you mean, but I don't agree at all. Big organizations ossifying and straying from their purposes and people tending not to have the dedication to see them through is exactly why those with strong character and influence need to take the time and put the work in to get and keep those big and lengthy and boring projects that fix obstacles and slowly help major problems on track. Or they're just not going to. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of more people are going to suffer immensely because of the Blights, and that's definitely preventable. Not doing everything in their power to prevent it because it seems like a daunting and complicated task isn't exactly in the Grey Warden spirit. The whole point of the first game is that you have to give and do everything for the cause, regardless of how difficult it is, because that's what it's going to take. My Warden certainly didn't run laps around a nation browbeating everyone unto the same page, fight dragons, face unimaginable horrors in the depths of the earth and order the rebirth of an ancient god just to start thinking small as soon as the Architect stopped convulsing.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 2, 2019 21:34:54 GMT
Did I say anything about expecting the Warden to personally accomplish any or all of those goals to perfect fruition? I don't think so. Obviously a lot of them are big and slow processes that might well take several lifetimes or seem impossibly complicated, but at least getting them started and/or furthering and exploring them by any means necessary is a more worthwhile pursuit than a cure for the Calling, in my opinion. I didn't mean for the Warden to go down that checklist and try to fix them immediately and elegantly one after the other, I meant for them to dedicate their time and resources to those causes in every way that seems practical, because that's how actual work is done. It did seem like that. Especially that, if these are supposed to be long-term goals that the Warden may not live to see accomplished, then I fail to see how not figuring out WTH The Calling is about and how to stop it somehow isn't on the list as well? I mean, figuring this stuff out may as well help with multiple goals from the list, especially given that some things are more or less connected to one another.
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Post by TheHeroOfFerelden on Dec 5, 2019 19:26:26 GMT
impostor! the hero of fereldan is a dalish not a human, you silly goat! I never claimed to be hero of any fereldan,so i'll take your word for it! Just good ol' Ferelden!
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Post by Cyberstrike on Dec 5, 2019 20:52:33 GMT
If part of the game involves the Anderfels, then I can see that coming up since the Wardens there would certainly react to it.
Or how Hawke escaped from the Wardens and that whole "Grey Warden Civil War" deal that was hinted at the coda to DAI, but I would be quite happy unless the main quest involves stopping the Sixth Blight and/or is set in entirely in the dwarven cities and/or deep roads, I would love to have DA4 having as few, or better yet no, mentions and no battles with the Grey Wardens and the darkspawn, because honestly I'm kind of sick of them.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 5, 2019 22:39:22 GMT
Regarding the Warden's responsibilities, my Warden wanted out of that mess from the start. She made no pledges; she just had no choice but to either drink the blighted Kool-Aid, because there's nothing left to do but that or fight Duncan to the death over it. Cure for the Calling? Well sign me the hell up. Last thing she'd want is to spend the final days sitting in a hole with filthy dwarves to die fighting zombies. If my Warden was truly all about that duty, I would never have pimped Alistair out to Morrigan to plant the Archbaby.
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Post by Blaze on Dec 7, 2019 15:53:08 GMT
impostor! the hero of fereldan is a dalish not a human, you silly goat! I never claimed to be hero of any fereldan,so i'll take your word for it! Just good ol' Ferelden! dude, you literally named yourself the hero of fereldan xD whatever you are trying to pull won't work, i'v got my eyes on you O_O
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Post by Addictress on Dec 9, 2019 4:00:18 GMT
I just really don't get why Solas would suggest that killing all the Old Gods would make things worse. Obviously he knows the whole ACTUAL story behind the Old Gods and the blight, right?
What would happen? It frustrates me that I have to wait four years to know. Please speculate.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 9, 2019 4:09:12 GMT
I just really don't get why Solas would suggest that killing all the Old Gods would make things worse. Obviously he knows the whole ACTUAL story behind the Old Gods and the blight, right? What would happen? It frustrates me that I have to wait four years to know. Please speculate. There are two things that come to mind. 1. With no Darkspawn, that could make all the Darkspawn into the Awakened since there is no call to listen to anymore. 2. As the fan theory after last year's teaser says, maybe the Old Gods acted as locks for something so with all of them dead whatever they sealed is undone.
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Post by Addictress on Dec 9, 2019 4:20:53 GMT
I just really don't get why Solas would suggest that killing all the Old Gods would make things worse. Obviously he knows the whole ACTUAL story behind the Old Gods and the blight, right? What would happen? It frustrates me that I have to wait four years to know. Please speculate. There are two things that come to mind. 1. With no Darkspawn, that could make all the Darkspawn into the Awakened since there is no call to listen to anymore. 2. As the fan theory after last year's teaser says, maybe the Old Gods acted as locks for something so with all of them dead whatever they sealed is undone. It's just a very flawed concealing device if #2. It's a leaky faucet where one Old God escapes every so often. Whoever devised that lock must have known it was a temporary solution.
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Hanako Ikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 9, 2019 4:24:28 GMT
There are two things that come to mind. 1. With no Darkspawn, that could make all the Darkspawn into the Awakened since there is no call to listen to anymore. 2. As the fan theory after last year's teaser says, maybe the Old Gods acted as locks for something so with all of them dead whatever they sealed is undone. It's just a very flawed concealing device if #2. It's a leaky faucet where one Old God escapes every so often. Whoever devised that lock must have known it was a temporary solution. Perhaps, though maybe they never foresaw the Darkspawn ever being created. We see how mortals are scared off from the tombs like in that entry from the Wardens in DAI, and yet the Darkspawn are a race that exist for nothing else.
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Iddy
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Post by Iddy on Dec 9, 2019 11:32:02 GMT
I just really don't get why Solas would suggest that killing all the Old Gods would make things worse. Obviously he knows the whole ACTUAL story behind the Old Gods and the blight, right? What would happen? It frustrates me that I have to wait four years to know. Please speculate. I suppose that without an Old God's call to keep the darkspawn focused on a single task, they would spread all over and attack randomly.
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