inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 23, 2020 17:19:22 GMT
The mages still individuals, who fight for their freedom. How Bethany can be individual, but the others aren't? very simple: a bunch of mages summoning demons and Beth in the middle of all that, not knowing what to as she does not practice all that, does not summon demons. She is a person on the background of other similar grey demon-summonning mage mass. During the battle we do not see individuals, only demon-summoning grey mass with "ready to die?" war cries. 1–4. wasted time. You can read my answers I did already. + N 5 yes.
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Wanted Apostate
127
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Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2020 17:27:06 GMT
The mages still individuals, who fight for their freedom. How Bethany can be individual, but the others aren't? very simple: a bunch of mages summoning demons and Beth in the middle of all that, not knowing what to as she does not practice all that, does not summon demons. She is a person on the background of other similar grey demon-summonning mage mass. During the battle we do not see individuals, only demon-summoning grey mass with "ready to die?" war cries. 1–4. wasted time. You can read my answers I did already. + N 5 yes. Bethany's not "in the middle". Bethany is a mage, like the others. She fights for her freedom, like the others. She's able to kill, like the others (I'm sure, she killed many Templars during the fight, like the others). Also: she can die in the fight, like the others. She was born as a mage like the others. And individual, like every persecuted person who forced to hide and forced to fight for themselves. Not an army. And not every of the mages summons demon. And Hawke decided to fight against her by the side a madwoman, who wants to kill her with the others. Sound cruel? This is the truth.
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inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 23, 2020 17:41:13 GMT
And Hawke decided to fight against her by the side a Madwoman, who wants to kill her. Understood your way of thinking: Hawke some kind of Temujin decidinng to wipe out everyone w/o thinking AT LL. According to you Hawke just unable to think and make desicions. Also an opinion. Questionable, but still an opinion.
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Wanted Apostate
127
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Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2020 17:58:04 GMT
And Hawke decided to fight against her by the side a Madwoman, who wants to kill her. Understood your way of thinking: Hawke some kind of Temujin decidinng to wipe out everyone w/o thinking AT LL. According to you Hawke just unable to think and make desicions. Also an opinion. Questionable, but still an opinion. Questionable? What is questionable? Meredith just declared, right there and right at the moment, that she will kill every mage in the Circle. She didn't say: every mage but Bethany. I know, Hawke perhaps doesn't want it – but not Hawke, but Meredith imposed the conditions, and Hawke should accept those, or refuse – no middle way here... Perhaps, Hawke thinks, it's a great idea to try to save Kirkwall at the side a madwoman, who prepares to destroy it, right now. But even if Hawke think, this is the only way to save the city, Hawke should see: his/her decision is against Bethany, not for her. Hawke did a willing sacrifice: to let her sister and the mages die, for the city. But this isn't the act for save Bethany. Hawke with this decision also decide: s/he will sacrifice Bethany with the other mages. Hawke has to face this situation, just like s/he has to face the situation to fight against Carver, if Carver is a Templar, and Hawke fights for the mages. The difference, that I never heard, Hawke says, s/he did it for Carver...
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inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 23, 2020 18:25:38 GMT
She didn't say: every mage but Bethany. she did not, Hawke did. According to you Hawke did not say even this. Hawke does want she/he wants, Meredith can go to hell as we can see that in the game. So this Meredith imposed the conditions, and Hawke should accept those, or refuse – no middle way here... in taken out from nowhere. A desire to save Beth doesn't mean a desire to save other demon-summoning grey mage mass. Side with mages? Fine. Works the same way. Hawke did not kill some templars. Why? Because thought they are not like the rest grey templar mass. In the game Hawke thinks things through. Belongning to some group can cause troubles indeed. Because some people simply do not understand that people differ, not ll of them are fanatics/idiots/etc. And if you say that And Hawke decided to fight against her by the side a madwoman, who wants to kill her with the others what is the conslusion? Hawke according to you is simply an idiot who can't assess the situation and has no brains at all.
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Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2020 18:53:43 GMT
She didn't say: every mage but Bethany. she did not, Hawke did. According to you Hawke did not say even this. Hawke does want she/he wants, Meredith can go to hell as we can see that in the game. So this Meredith imposed the conditions, and Hawke should accept those, or refuse – no middle way here... in taken out from nowhere. A desire to save Beth doesn't mean a desire to save other demon-summoning grey mage mass. Side with mages? Fine. Works the same way. Hawke did not kill some templars. Why? Because thought they are not like the rest grey templar mass. In the game Hawke thinks things through. Belongning to some group can cause troubles indeed. Because some people simply do not understand that people differ, not ll of them are fanatics/idiots/etc. And if you say that And Hawke decided to fight against her by the side a madwoman, who wants to kill her with the others what is the conslusion? Hawke according to you is simply an idiot who can't assess the situation and has no brains at all. I can't say anything else, just what i said before: Hawke decided to fight on her side, Hawke knew Meredith's intention, and Hawke has to face this situation, s/he fight against Bethany, not for her – the Knight-Commander whom s/he supports, wants to kill her. Whatever is Hawke's "desire" – at the moment still Meredith rules over the Circle, if they shepherd back the mages to the Circle, she's the person who can decide Bethany's fate. And Hawke seems works for it. AGAINST Bethany. At the mage side Hawke killed many Templars. I don't know what about you speak. Belonging to some group sometimes means that people sees they're the same, the system who persecutes them consider them the same. And in this case, you can't do anything, just refuse what you're, what is fool, you will not change, just because you refused what you're. Or you can accept that, and to live as one, but not accept the oppression. But you'll belong to that group, whatever you want or not. And sometimes it means persecution. Not because of you're some extremist, just because you exist. Bethany's a mage. She can't be not one, just because Hawke thinks, she's different.
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inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 23, 2020 19:33:03 GMT
Belonging to some group sometimes means that people sees they're the same, the system who persecutes them consider them the same. And in this case, you can't do anything, just refuse what you're, what is fool, you will not change, just because you refused what you're. Or you can accept that, and to live as one, but not accept the oppression. But you'll belong to that group, whatever you want or not. And sometimes it means persecution. Not because of you're some extremist, just because you exist yep, that's what I was talking about in regads of Hawke and your understanding of the situation "side with Meredith means wipe out all mages, including Beth". And that is a questionable thing to me about your statements. People can be stupid and blind w/o understanding very simple, obvious facts - not all are the same. This last statement of yours proves you understand this point, though Hawke, according to you - does not. Thus - questionable. If you'd like - confusing.
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2020 19:44:29 GMT
Belonging to some group sometimes means that people sees they're the same, the system who persecutes them consider them the same. And in this case, you can't do anything, just refuse what you're, what is fool, you will not change, just because you refused what you're. Or you can accept that, and to live as one, but not accept the oppression. But you'll belong to that group, whatever you want or not. And sometimes it means persecution. Not because of you're some extremist, just because you exist yep, that's what I was talking about in regads of Hawke and your understanding of the situation "side with Meredith means wipe out all mages, including Beth". And that is a questionable thing to me about your statements. People can be stupid and blind w/o understanding very simple, obvious facts - not all are the same. This last statement of yours proves you understand this point, though Hawke, according to you - does not. Thus - questionable. If you'd like - confusing. You probably misunderstood me. Of course, they're not the same. But. I still think, if Hawke supports Meredith with Bethany in the Circle, doesn't work for Bethany but against her. Hawke at the moment, decides, s/he goes with the group what persecutes and want to kill his/her sister. Hawke with his act accept, legalize and support the Tempars, the group what wants to kill Bethany and her kind. Not just the "bad" ones. Every of them. That never means Hawke want to save her. It means, Hawke thinks, Bethany an exception. But Bethany's not an exception – and seems she doesn't want be one. One of the worst things to say to someone who belong to a minority: you're not like the others of your kind. Not? Then what am I? A "good" one? Who decides, who is the "good one"? In the Mages' case, the Templars? Or someone who close to them? "You're my mother/father/brother/sister/love/friend, so you're not like the others?"
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inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 23, 2020 22:30:45 GMT
You probably misunderstood me and still don't understand. Just simple examples with simple phrases and words to make it faster so to say, express my understanding of that questionable statement of yours. In Beth situation: - she belongs to the group - "mages"; - Beth IS NOT like other mages who summon demons. She is different, she is responsable mage (mage-question is not for debate now!!!) - Meredith does not care - all should die because they are all "mage" group (Meredith state of mind is not for debate now!!)! Game example, but in our world such state of thing are often met, and your post above has shown that you understand it - people do not understand that Beth is responsable and think that she must die only because other mages did bad things (the same as "you must die because your people 1000 years ago raped my mother, probably, during your stupid invasion!") Supporting Beth means only supporting Beth as she is different from other mages Hawke met e.g. So for Hawke a group "mages" in general in Kirkwall is bad, BUT Hawke understands there are good mages as well, including Beth, only Hawke met more bad ones. And capable of thinking. And because of many bad examples of "mages" group, Hawke decided to choose the lesser evil so to say - templars. And after dealing with those unresponsible mages she/he saves Beth. My short explanation. Hope it is clear. Now, as I understand, even if s group "mages" is bad for Hawke (many those examples), Hawke still just MUST side with them because of Beth. Side with those, whom Hawke considers bad examples of a group "mages", side with those whom he/she saw doing something nasty etc etc. And in Hawke's mind siding with templars by default means "fight against Beth" because she is from "mage" group with whom templars are fighting, even if it sad. According to your understanding this is how Hawke looks like from aside - an idiot (see my explanation of the situation). And that is questionable as you understand that "people-can't-understand-that-not-all-bad" thing, but at the same time you write exactly the opposite - "kill her kind siding with templars".
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Wanted Apostate
127
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Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 23, 2020 22:50:06 GMT
You probably misunderstood me and still don't understand. Just simple examples with simple phrases and words to make it faster so to say, express my understanding of that questionable statement of yours. In Beth situation: - she belongs to the group - "mages"; - Beth IS NOT like other mages who summon demons. She is different, she is responsable mage (mage-question is not for debate now!!!) - Meredith does not care - all should die because they are all "mage" group (Meredith state of mind is not for debate now!!)! Game example, but in our world such state of thing are often met, and your post above has shown that you understand it - people do not understand that Beth is responsable and think that she must die only because other mages did bad things (the same as "you must die because your people 1000 years ago raped my mother, probably, during your stupid invasion!") Supporting Beth means only supporting Beth as she is different from other mages Hawke met e.g. So for Hawke a group "mages" in general in Kirkwall is bad, BUT Hawke understands there are good mages as well, including Beth, only Hawke met more bad ones. And capable of thinking. And because of many bad examples of "mages" group, Hawke decided to choose the lesser evil so to say - templars. And after dealing with those unresponsible mages she/he saves Beth. My short explanation. Hope it is clear. Now, as I understand, even if s group "mages" is bad for Hawke (many those examples), Hawke still just MUST side with them because of Beth. Side with those, whom Hawke considers bad examples of a group "mages", side with those whom he/she saw doing something nasty etc etc. And in Hawke's mind siding with templars by default means "fight against Beth" because she is from "mage" group with whom templars are fighting, even if it sad. According to your understanding this is how Hawke looks like from aside - an idiot (see my explanation of the situation). And that is questionable as you understand that "people-can't-understand-that-not-all-bad" thing, but at the same time you write exactly the opposite - "kill her kind siding with templars". Absolutely wrong to think, she's special as mage. Many, or rather most of the mages in the Circle are like Bethany. And also, apprentices, children here. Blood mages, like Jowan, yes, nothing wrong with them. They are people, not some monsters, insects, or cursed ones. Meredith wants to kill them, like they are like those. Bethany's special in your eyes, because Bethany's your Hawke's sister. But she's just as mage like the others. She doesn't summon demons? But she fights on the side of them. Many "responsible" mages in the Circle. And who decides, who is the "responsible" mage? And again: how your Hawke thinks, s/he will be able to save her. At the moment, when s/he goes with Meredith, and leaves Bethany, Hawke gave up her. Hawke doesn't know, s/he will be able to save her, in the battle and after. Hawke risks her life for his/her conviction, for the city. (The game allows Hawke to save her, but Hawke doesn't know yet. Also: Hawke didn't say to Meredith, this is his/her condition for help.) Nothing wrong with it, if your Hawke considered, the city's matter, and the only person who can save the city is Meredith. But Hawke doesn't make it for Bethany but against her. Remember: Bethany fights on the mages' side... your Hawke consider her someone who doesn't know what she does? And if she such a stupid, doesn't know what she does, how she can be a "responsible" mage?
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inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 23, 2020 23:52:08 GMT
I asked you not to debate FOR NOW about 2 things as the matter was different. But you still wrote all that because I was not polite enough? Since I asked not to debate about 2 things hoping to clarify some questionable statement, I will ignore them. So, sorry. Bethany's special in your eyes, because Bethany's your Hawke's sister. Beth is not special in my eyes. Beth is my sister who happen to be a mage and ended up near a future harvester. And Beth is an example of responsable mage. In DR Beth for me is a weak person, if refuses to become a GW. Period. And who decides, who is the "responsible" mage? an answer to that question is very long as just demands many explanations and examples. In short(no need to comment it, pointless anyway as it is a very short annswer w/o proper explanations): those who don't suffer from their stupidity in every possible way/irresponsable actions/etc. Usual people. your Hawke consider her someone who doesn't know what she does? Beth doesn't know some things. She is a very mild and vulnerable person, thus we see her reactions to the happenning. She does what Orsino says..for a time. Many words and not even one regarding that questionable statement. My hope to clear it out is lost.
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Wanted Apostate
127
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Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2020 0:05:58 GMT
I asked you not to debate FOR NOW about 2 things as the matter was different. But you still wrote all that because I was not polite enough? Since I asked not to debate about 2 things hoping to clarify some questionable statement, I will ignore them. So, sorry. Bethany's special in your eyes, because Bethany's your Hawke's sister. Beth is not special in my eyes. Beth is my sister who happen to be a mage and ended up near a future harvester. And Beth is an example of responsable mage. In DR Beth for me is a weak person, if refuses to become a GW. Period. And who decides, who is the "responsible" mage? an answer to that question is very long as just demands many explanations and examples. In short(no need to comment it, pointless anyway as it is a very short annswer w/o proper explanations): those who don't suffer from their stupidity in every possible way/irresponsable actions/etc. Usual people. your Hawke consider her someone who doesn't know what she does? Beth doesn't know some things. She is a very mild and vulnerable person, thus we see her reactions to the happenning. She does what Orsino says..for a time. Many words and not even one regarding that questionable statement. My hope to clear it out is lost. If she does what someone else says, how can she be "responsible"? No. She fights for herself. She's uncertain because perhaps she will face with Hawke in the war... She wouldn't like to fight against Hawke, but she knows what she wants. Seems, she agrees with Orsino more, like with Hawke... She never agreed with the conception of the prison-Circles, in the whole game. Vulnerable? Yes. I think when Hawke turns against her, not too good feeling to her. What is the questionable statement? That Meredith wants to kill every mage, and Bethany's a mage? I don't understand. It just fact. When you asked, not to debate about some things? You just said, it's questionable. Sorry then. And I know your opinion about Bethany, I worded badly, but I think about your Hawke's view. She's special, Hawke sees her special, because she's Hawke's sister.
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inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 24, 2020 0:47:32 GMT
f she does what someone else says, how can she be "responsible"? One thing has nothing to do with the other. At all. First thing not connected with the second: I wrote it clearly She does what Orsino says..for a time. will add than a) he is superior calling her "child": considering her emotional portrait and "no-father" situation - that worked for Orsino very well; b ) she does what Orsino, not someone from the street, says - see a). Second thing not connected with the first: And who decides, who is the "responsible" mage? an answer to that question is very long as just demands many explanations and examples. In short(no need to comment it, pointless anyway as it is a very short annswer w/o proper explanations): those who don't suffer from their stupidity in every possible way/irresponsable actions/etc. Usual people. Seems, she agrees with Orsino more, like with Hawke... copy-past from above "he is superior calling her "child": considering her emotional portrait and "no-father" situation - that worked for Orsino very well" Orsino is clever monster: plays on her fatheless situation and emotional state and portrait. It worked...for a time. What is the questionable statement? in short - accordig to your statements Hawke looks like a brainless moron, unable to think at all. With more nfo: many posts starting from your statements from something like "Hawke decided to fight against Beth". I tried so hard to understand all that, asked questions whether I understood this ot that right, gave examples. In return - "mages are people, Meredith is a monster". Nothing connected to things I tried to understand.Really. Was in vain, is in vain, seems will be in vain ever-forever.
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Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2020 0:58:37 GMT
f she does what someone else says, how can she be "responsible"? One thing has nothing to do with the other. At all. First thing not connected with the second: I wrote it clearly She does what Orsino says..for a time. will add than a) he is superior calling her "child": considering her emotional portrait and "no-father" situation - that worked for Orsino very well; b ) she does what Orsino, not someone from the street, says - see a). Second thing not connected with the first: And who decides, who is the "responsible" mage? an answer to that question is very long as just demands many explanations and examples. In short(no need to comment it, pointless anyway as it is a very short annswer w/o proper explanations): those who don't suffer from their stupidity in every possible way/irresponsable actions/etc. Usual people. Seems, she agrees with Orsino more, like with Hawke... copy-past from above "he is superior calling her "child": considering her emotional portrait and "no-father" situation - that worked for Orsino very well" Orsino is clever monster: plays on her fatheless situation and emotional state and portrait. It worked...for a time. What is the questionable statement? in short - accordig to your statements Hawke looks like a brainless moron, unable to think at all. With more nfo: many posts starting from your statements from something like "Hawke decided to fight against Beth". I tried so hard to understand all that, asked questions whether I understood this ot that right, gave examples. In return - "mages are people, Meredith is a monster". Nothing connected to things I tried to understand.Really. Was in vain, is in vain, seems will be in vain ever-forever. Oh, and according to you, Bethany's a moron... who just let her to be manipulated by a very-very evil person like Orsino (he's not like that, but this is a different topic)... According to that, seems Bethany's an easy prey to a demon. No. Bethany knows, what she wants, and this isn't the Annulment. I just don't get, why some people can't believe, she doesn't want to die, and she's able to fight for her life. Not because of Orsino "manipulated" her, but because she opposes the Annulment. That's so unbelievable, if someone wants to fight for their life, and doesn't like the genocide? She asks Hawke for help. Hawke refuses her if picks Meredith. That's clear. Hawke isn't "moron", according to the game, even Varric thinks, that siding with Meredith's not a bad idea (sadly). All I wanted to say, if Hawke sides with Meredith – Hawke should face with the fact, s/he most likely wouldn't able to save Bethany. Hawke made a choice, and Hawke's choice was not Bethany. It's like Hawke, if chose the mages, and Carver is a Templar, Hawke should face the fact, s/he fights against Carver, and maybe s/he will be not able to save Carver. Everything else just metaknowledge.
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inherit
11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 24, 2020 10:09:25 GMT
Oh, and according to you, Bethany's a moron Where did I say that? I explained why Hawke is a moron (according to you) many times in the process of trying to figure out what exactly you mean. actually she does. Only inborn nature instinct does its job. In the DR she can get that opportunity even if has a chance to use magic for good deeds. Refused and even gave you a present in the form of +10 apprv. Something to think about considerding Beth and Carver appr/disspr is present only to show "family-matters", nothing else. She gave up after the fight with Orsino saying words of a person who wants to die, not stand to the last killing as many as she can before her death, but crying like a baby (already hear your "desparate/situation/ etc" explanations, irrelevant anyway and I wrote WHY). I will mention again her emotional portrait and fatherlessness, because it it important here for understanding. In general yes, Beth is ready to "show the dangers of magic" to every bad person/darspawn/demon, but Beth has certain limits (like every person). And that limit is seen in the end of the game. When Hawke says Meredith to FO from her, for Beth it is like a fuel and she is ready to kick asses again. And that "fuel" could have been anything else, not Hawke at all. The question is only how long it will work for her type. All I wanted to say, if Hawke sides with Meredith – Hawke should face with the fact, s/he most likely wouldn't able to save Bethany. Your statements already included this information. This part is clear and obvious. Other parts of your posts on this topic raise questions about Hawke's mental state (explained already). Questionable things are still questionable.
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Wanted Apostate
127
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Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 24, 2020 12:09:08 GMT
Oh, and according to you, Bethany's a moron Where did I say that? I explained why Hawke is a moron (according to you) many times in the process of trying to figure out what exactly you mean. actually she does. Only inborn nature instinct does its job. In the DR she can get that opportunity even if has a chance to use magic for good deeds. Refused and even gave you a present in the form of +10 apprv. Something to think about considerding Beth and Carver appr/disspr is present only to show "family-matters", nothing else. She gave up after the fight with Orsino saying words of a person who wants to die, not stand to the last killing as many as she can before her death, but crying like a baby (already hear your "desparate/situation/ etc" explanations, irrelevant anyway and I wrote WHY). I will mention again her emotional portrait and fatherlessness, because it it important here for understanding. In general yes, Beth is ready to "show the dangers of magic" to every bad person/darspawn/demon, but Beth has certain limits (like every person). And that limit is seen in the end of the game. When Hawke says Meredith to FO from her, for Beth it is like a fuel and she is ready to kick asses again. And that "fuel" could have been anything else, not Hawke at all. The question is only how long it will work for her type. All I wanted to say, if Hawke sides with Meredith – Hawke should face with the fact, s/he most likely wouldn't able to save Bethany. Your statements already included this information. This part is clear and obvious. Other parts of your posts on this topic raise questions about Hawke's mental state (explained already). Questionable things are still questionable. Where you said, Bethany's a moron? Indirectly. You said, she doesn't know what she wants, just listens to Orsino, what isn't true. Bethany is a more complex character than seems at first sight, but never shows father complex or suicidal tendency. She speaks about her father twice: once she says to Anders, he reminds to his father, but it hardly this is "father complex", in this conversation, they spoke about Bethany's education. (Seems, Malcolm was not really pro-Circle) Later she mentions Malcolm, in Legacy. Also, with obvious reasons. She only wants to die, if she tainted, and also thinks, she also prefers to die, instead of being a Tranquil. I can't say, it's a suicidal tendency (even if she's a warden she can find things why she wants to live: her magic serves the good. This is not a simple congenital survival instinct. But it's true, she's not happy with the taint.) But in the Circle she's not tainted, and also she succeeded to avoid being a tranquil. She has a "martyr" tendency, but that doesn't mean, she's suicidal. In the mage side, she's happy. If Hawke supports the Templars against her – she's understandably sad. If you had been right about she wants to die, then that suicidal feeling was caused by Hawke's refusal. In this case, I can imagine, she feels, she doesn't matter to anyone – here you can be right: Hawke, her sibling refused her, her only friend is Orsino (and those mages). Hawke betrayed her. If she wants to die – then this is her reason. And Orsino doesn't have to "manipulate" her: Hawke shows, where is her place. But she still can love Hawke. Yes. Bethany knows the danger of magic, as everyone knows, but she NEVER accepted the prison-Circle like solution. She accepted her fate inside the Circle, to protect Hawke (martyrdom). She may found some peace in her decision but ready fight for her freedom. The only thing that made her sad: that Hawke betrayed her. Everyone would feel betrayed, why she would be the only exception in the whole universe? If Hawke pick the Templars, she's sad. She's grateful if Hawke doesn't let that madwoman execute her (Hawke still cares about her? Still has a family?), but that still a very sad moment. If Hawke picks the mages, she's happy. She shows her real opinion. She has an opinion. She shows it in the whole game. And this isn't pro-Circle. (But of course, she's written to justify every decision of Hawke. Clever writing, almost fascinating. Even so, we cannot deny, Hawke betrayed her here, and she rightly can feel her betrayed. Interesting, that you, who always side with Templars, sees Bethany as suicidal, but I who with the Mages see her absolutely stable. Why? Just not because she feels Hawke betrayed her with support Meredith, and if Hawke stands by her, she's happy, satisfied? It seems just natural.) *** So: then we agree, that Hawke when picks the Templars, can't be sure, s/he can save Bethany? Good.
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Post by Sonya on Jan 24, 2020 13:18:33 GMT
So: then we agree, that Hawke when picks the Templars, can't be sure, s/he can save Bethany? Good it was never debatable actually. It is an obvious thing easy to understand. OK, I have many things to say about Beth and your views, explain why/what/where, but it is for "Beth thread" I think. If you'd like - can continue this in her thread (about suicide/father-complex/Hawke suppot etc etc). I have a lot to say about it all and about your post above. With expanations of my view on her. That other matter I wanted to fugure out from you is still unclear as not explaied by you. As i said: in vain. Period.
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Post by Dukemon on Feb 2, 2020 14:08:32 GMT
I only supported the Templars once in Dragon Age 2 to get the trophy for it. For my taste, Bioware in Dragon Age 2 tried far too hard to live up to their own statement that in Dragon Age Origins the mages were too much in an unjustified sacrificial role. Because too many players saw the mages as victims. Not the way Cullen saw them in DA2. I can't remember when and where this was said, it just stayed in my head, since I am "Pro Magician". Therefore the player was not allowed to save Leandra anymore. Bioware feared too many players would save Leandra from the bad, bad, bad, bad blood magic. Bioware has completely forgotten figures like Uldred or Caladrius. But the latter was not insane and it was left to the player to decide how the Warden would deal with him. Anyway, in Dragon Age 2 the scales were filled unbalanced in this conflict, because without Bethany we don't meet an important character that does Meredith wrong. Even in the last two important quests in Act 3: help Meredith we only get to know that there are criminals in Kirkwall (what a coincidence that there are criminals in the city...) and an idiot. While in the quest of Orsino there are more and more examples of choosing Meredith in the end. That's why I only choose against Meredith, because Dragon Age Origins doesn't agree with her. (see Finn, see Circle Mage in Ferelden, see Wilhelm's Son. Also the community seems to live for better or worse and Thedas still hasn't gone down yet) Only Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age Awakening are already holding back a lot.
But I approve that Meredith, Orsino and Elthina should have been disempowered. And even a Cullen should have been demoted for not being fit to lead.
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Post by dayze on May 14, 2020 5:06:05 GMT
Bit of a thread Necro here but got me thinking.
So Elthina was aware of people in her order that were going around kidnapping mages, killing Qunari etc....? But did nothing?
At this point; you could almost argue that she was doing one or even two things, sheltering them and funding their operation since she was the one who paid them and provided them their resources and social connections to get things done and the credibility of being associated with the Chantry.
I had forgotten she told Hawke to say that things were not as bad as they seem......which means that even to people "outside" of the city it seemed like everything was on the edge of a city-sized civil war. There is almost no way here to see her as being possibly ignorant except to almost agree with Anders opinion of her.
She also was in favor and gave her support to Meredith being made Knight-Commander.....I have to imagine even non-crazy Meredith was still a pretty serious hard-liner even by the Templar's standards.
She managed to break up their fight and right before Anders blows up the chantry Meredith seems almost scared that Orsino might get her involved.
There is a clear indication that Elthina is the power-that-be in this city, nothing is going on with the Chantry and The Templars that she doesn't want going on.
As for Orsino and not knowing until it was too late; considering he covered up and assisted his crimes to keep Meredith from finding out, supposedly, was the too late right after Hawke's mother dies or was it after the first victim died? He also specifically refers to Quentin's work as "Too dangerous, too EVIL" so he set it aside.
Considering that Quentin's work was Harvesters I mean, how many situations in his life were popping up were deciding that committing suicide via Blood Magic and creating an endless monster of destruction could actually come up in his life? Essentially he "set it aside" until the first time the opportunity came up.
And he decides to die by becoming a Harvester, don't those things just keep adding the bodies to their mass that they kill and becoming more and more powerful?
If that Thing got past Hawke and Meredith, the death toll had the potential to be "apocalyptic" for Thedas. Tens of thousands could very well be low-balling the number of death's.
Honestly; Orsino's history of lies and manipulation plus his inability to accept responsibility for his actions and his death being borderline-psychopathic in action......and yeah I know he was "not Giving up, giving in" I presume he meant giving in to what people thought he and blood mages were.
But as pointing out by Meredith; this knowledge doesn't just pop up out of thin air. How many times did he read the book to be as prepared and relatively effortless in creating the Harvester as he did?
Meredith has lyrium corrupting her, Anders has Justice driving him over the edge even Elthina has the possibility of suffering from some form of senility for her choices.
Orsino was just angry and wanted to bring as many people down with him as possible, Mage, non-Mage, human, elf, adult or child he didn't care all he saw was his own pain and suffering.
Though of course ultimately this is all thrown up in the air by the conceit of the game being a story that Varric is telling Cassandra, considering he was willing to say what he thought she wanted to hear and left things out of the story to protect Hawke's location.
Factor in his own personal bias and we don't really know much at all what was going on or how accurate anything in the game might have been lore-wise.
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 17, 2020 21:38:05 GMT
Nah, she didn't.
Elthina was as well-meaning as a plantation house slave that tries to make things slightly better for the field slaves, and once the latter rebel against their opressors they're not gonna give a fuck if the house slave gave them a little extra corn some fridays.
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Post by Beerfish on Jun 22, 2020 14:28:49 GMT
She should have noted there were problems in the templar order and knew there must be future reforms.
Before getting to that however she should have 100% backed the Templars and crushed the mage rebellion and any and all resistance.
The mage leadership was as corrupt as the templars and far more dangerous.
Anders the selfish terrorist was in the end responsible for far far more mage deaths than meredith or a seeker like lambert. A vast majority of these mages had or wanted nothing to do with some big rebellion.
The next Divine was far worse than Elthina.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 23, 2020 2:16:03 GMT
She should have noted there were problems in the templar order and knew there must be future reforms. Before getting to that however she should have 100% backed the Templars and crushed the mage rebellion and any and all resistance. The mage leadership was as corrupt as the templars and far more dangerous. Anders the selfish terrorist was in the end responsible for far far more mage deaths than meredith or a seeker like lambert. A vast majority of these mages had or wanted nothing to do with some big rebellion. The next Divine was far worse than Elthina. This. Simply. Not. Right. She didn't want to see any future, she just wanted to survive her sin of silence. Well didn't succeed – that happens. In her position to remain silent, to remain "neutral" – is a deadly sin. If she risked showing some opinion, but still dies – she would die as a worthy person.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2020 3:22:32 GMT
I dispute the premise that Elthina was "neutral" to begin with.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2020 3:50:00 GMT
She should have noted there were problems in the templar order and knew there must be future reforms. Before getting to that however she should have 100% backed the Templars and crushed the mage rebellion and any and all resistance. The mage leadership was as corrupt as the templars and far more dangerous. Anders the selfish terrorist was in the end responsible for far far more mage deaths than meredith or a seeker like lambert. A vast majority of these mages had or wanted nothing to do with some big rebellion. The next Divine was far worse than Elthina. This. Simply. Not. Right. She didn't want to see any future, she just wanted to survive her sin of silence. Well didn't succeed – that happens. In her position to remain silent, to remain "neutral" – is a deadly sin. If she risked showing some opinion, but still dies – she would die as a worthy person.
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N7
Little Pumpkin
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Post by Beerfish on Jun 23, 2020 5:19:03 GMT
She should have noted there were problems in the templar order and knew there must be future reforms. Before getting to that however she should have 100% backed the Templars and crushed the mage rebellion and any and all resistance. The mage leadership was as corrupt as the templars and far more dangerous. Anders the selfish terrorist was in the end responsible for far far more mage deaths than meredith or a seeker like lambert. A vast majority of these mages had or wanted nothing to do with some big rebellion. The next Divine was far worse than Elthina. This. Simply. Not. Right. She didn't want to see any future, she just wanted to survive her sin of silence. Well didn't succeed – that happens. In her position to remain silent, to remain "neutral" – is a deadly sin. If she risked showing some opinion, but still dies – she would die as a worthy person. The mages were corrupt and out of control and needed to be slapped back into line. If anything Elthina turned her back on the templars and made their jobs much tougher.
And for her trouble she and many others were murdered by a mage, which instantly made the mages the biggest bad guys in the land.
Pity the mages did not have reasonable, same leadership (like Wynne for instance) and had a selfish killer like Anders who corrupted a spirit.
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