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Post by cloud9 on Feb 19, 2020 2:22:07 GMT
I'll bite. So how did DAI move the genre forward? Please elaborate. For TW3 I can say side quest design was one as well as DLC design. Again, Bioware (need to find a link) essentially said expansion style DLCs were not profitable and/or desired by today's consumers which is why they only do those short DLCs. Blood and Wine has enough content in it alone to be a full blown $60 game. Now you have other devs following similar route although not to the same level of success. Assassins Creed Odyssey in many ways tried to capture that style of TW3. How many devs have since tried to use the DAI formula? And then there is this: www.google.com/amp/s/comicbook.com/gaming/amp/2018/05/27/dragon-age-inquisition-bioware-witcher-3/So again, how did DAI move the genre forward? And this: www.google.com/amp/s/gamerant.com/mass-effect-andromeda-side-quest-witcher/amp/How come MEA side quest couldn't be meaningful like DAI? Why reference TW3 and not DAI? "I...don't...want...to...walk around in circles, walk around in circles, walk around in circles" Da Witcha 3 is duh best game eh-vah! Well, it is.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2020 2:27:56 GMT
"I...don't...want...to...walk around in circles, walk around in circles, walk around in circles" Da Witcha 3 is duh best game eh-vah! Well, it is.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2020 2:29:00 GMT
No it did, with it’s wonderful environments and great characters. Only Cole, Vivienne, Iron Bull, and Varric are worthy of being great characters. But the environmental design is sub par compared to Skyrim. Oh, this will be good. Why are only those characters great? And why aren't the others?
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 19, 2020 2:39:18 GMT
😏
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 19, 2020 2:40:36 GMT
Only Cole, Vivienne, Iron Bull, and Varric are worthy of being great characters. But the environmental design is sub par compared to Skyrim. Oh, this will be good. Why are only those characters great? And why aren't the others? 😐
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Post by githcheater on Feb 19, 2020 2:44:35 GMT
Oh, this will be good. Why are only those characters great? And why aren't the others? 😐 Not true.
Cole and Iron Bull were written by Patrick ... Weekes
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 19, 2020 3:11:35 GMT
Since when slightly above 50% is 'almost everyone'? Also - almost everyone enjoyed hanging criminals as a form of entertainment at one point in time. And argumentum ad populum remains a logical fallacy. 50 Shades of Grey are enjoyed in similar way the movie "The Room" (81% 5-star ratings on Amazon!) is - they're AWFUL, but they are either many people's guilty pleasure or fill out a neglected niche, making people flock to what is available on wider market. It's well-known at this point in time what kind entertainment 50 Shades offers to the reader, just like it's well-known that its protoplast that is Twilight - which was also super-popular at the time - just isn't on the same level of quality on both storytelling and wordsmithing level as, say, Harry Potter.
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Post by river82 on Feb 19, 2020 7:04:40 GMT
just isn't on the same level of quality on both storytelling and wordsmithing level as, say, Harry Potter. Critics tend to hate Harry Potter because of its prose TBH. I've always viewed Rowling as really good at building a world and putting in place great plot and mystery but she's not a wordsmith. Basically one of the reasons why critics are so out of touch with audiences for movies and books is because critics look at things from almost a literature point of view. Basically they look for character development and style, whereas when audiences read books or watch a movie they just want to be entertained generally with a good plot and a fun ride. This disconnect between what critics look for and what audiences look for is why they're usually at odds with one another, and it's why you have articles written like this from literature critic Nicholas Lezard which included the sentence "A nine-year-old might feel quite pleased with the writing in the Harry Potter books. It's pretty embarrassing coming from an adult" - www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2007/jul/17/harrypottersbigconisthep At which point most people reading the article tend to think "DUDE, nobody cares! This is why your ilk is going extinct" You don't get this sort of stuff from video game critics btw because literary critics are trained a certain way and are professional, and video game critics are usually your average internet denizen who randomly got offered a job.
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Post by Kabraxal on Feb 19, 2020 18:53:53 GMT
"I...don't...want...to...walk around in circles, walk around in circles, walk around in circles" Da Witcha 3 is duh best game eh-vah! Well, it is. Well... maybe if it's the only game you've played. Sadly, I had played games and RPGs out the wazoo and found TW3 to be middling at best.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 19, 2020 21:42:23 GMT
just isn't on the same level of quality on both storytelling and wordsmithing level as, say, Harry Potter. Critics tend to hate Harry Potter because of its prose TBH. I've always viewed Rowling as really good at building a world and putting in place great plot and mystery but she's not a wordsmith. Basically one of the reasons why critics are so out of touch with audiences for movies and books is because critics look at things from almost a literature point of view. Basically they look for character development and style, whereas when audiences read books or watch a movie they just want to be entertained generally with a good plot and a fun ride. This disconnect between what critics look for and what audiences look for is why they're usually at odds with one another, and it's why you have articles written like this from literature critic Nicholas Lezard which included the sentence "A nine-year-old might feel quite pleased with the writing in the Harry Potter books. It's pretty embarrassing coming from an adult" - www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2007/jul/17/harrypottersbigconisthep At which point most people reading the article tend to think "DUDE, nobody cares! This is why your ilk is going extinct" You don't get this sort of stuff from video game critics btw because literary critics are trained a certain way and are professional, and video game critics are usually your average internet denizen who randomly got offered a job. Keep in mind that nowhere I've claimed that Rowling is the wordsmithiest of wordsmiths - I've simply said that Twilight is not up to par in both storytelling and wordsmithing quality, which is simply true. One doesn't have to be a literary critic to see that. I'm a bit confused what I'm supposed to draw from here though, given how tangentially it's connected to the point I was making - one one hand literary/movie critics are 'ehhhh', because they're too technical and professional... on the other hand video game critics are 'ehhhh', because they aren't? Does that mean that audience reception is KING, despite us knowing quite well that it's hardly an accurate gauge - I mean, James Cameron's "Avatar" was one of the biggest movies a decade ago, yet hardly anyone remembers it now, or brings it in any cultural context (sans its input on field of computer graphics) - but a lot of people still hail "Avatar: The Last Airbender" (the cartoon, not the movie, lol) as one of the best shows of the generation. Anyway, we can have a discussion about how hard it is to measure a thing's quality (specifically one from field of creative works or art or ideas and so on, which are very subjective) but it's not like some level of consensus on it is impossible among the wider audience. Be it from distance of time or surrounding discussion or the way people enjoy something we know that "The Room" simply isn't "Citizen Kane" and "50 Shades" makes very little effort to pretend that it's a fanfiction of a book that itself ultimately didn't have as much of a cultural impact as Harry Potter, even if it still left its mark or told us something interesting from cultural perspective. Anyway, back to DA - I don't particularly care about about lists like that of IGN, because I'm more curious how, from perspective of time, DA as a franchise is going to be remembered when it either concludes, or concludes some of its major arcs. I think that the series itself is kinda in this weird spot where one can measure the strength of a singular game, but it's not going to be a complete picture, because the game itself is simply a part of a bigger whole. I think one of the reasons why Witcher III was so big (even compared to previous installments, the 2nd of which was actually pretty well liked as well) is because it basically gave us a Grand Finale (of a much tightly focused story), while DAI is basically still warming its engines. An I mean... are they going to stick the landing? We know from recent debacle with GOT (and Star Wars.... or Mass Effect) how a controversial finale can affect the whole series, even if individual parts are considered great, or even groundbreaking.
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Post by river82 on Feb 19, 2020 21:52:53 GMT
Keep in mind that nowhere I've claimed that Rowling is the wordsmithiest of wordsmiths - I've simply said that Twilight is not up to par in both storytelling and wordsmithing quality, which is simply true. One doesn't have to be a literary critic to see that. Erm ... sorry but they're actually about the same I suspect 50 Shades of Grey might be slightly worse because it started out as a Twilight fanfiction story before it was modified, but Rowling's prose and Meyer's prose are both about the same tier. Except HP is mediocre 3rd person prose and Twilight is mediocre first person prose *shrugs* I'm a bit confused what I'm supposed to draw from here though, given how tangentially it's connected to the point I was making - one one hand literary/movie critics are 'ehhhh', because they're too technical and professional... on the other hand video game critics are 'ehhhh', because they aren't? Professional critics look for different things to what the lay person is generally looking for. It's not that they're incompetent but they don't speak to the lay person. Game critics like to pretend they're professional so they litter their stuff with technical sounding phrases (I see the term "story beat" has recently found popularity) but they're generally just normal people looking at normal people stuff. If a person writes literature and is looking for a book deal, the publisher and editors are looking for different things than if a person is writing genre fiction. And critics tend to evaluate from a literature point of view.
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Post by river82 on Feb 19, 2020 22:19:00 GMT
You're kinda failing to get my point, but it's that I agree with you. There is no metric for objectively good or bad, literature critics seem to evaluate on one but it's at odds to the general public. Let's go back to HP and Twilight. Meyer is often said to be able to "suck a reader in" more whereas Rowling has a better vocabulary and literature skill. But why isn't Rowling able to "suck people in" as well as Meyer? Well part of the reason is she likes to tell the reader what they're envisioning rather than describing it ( vicious-looking dragons) more than Meyer which makes it harder to do things like build an atmosphere, on the other hand Meyer can descend into purple prose ( A perfect statue, carved in some unknown stone, smooth like marble, glittering like crystal.) So these err on what is critically thought of as examples of "bad writing" but on completely opposite ends of the scale. What someone will put up with more will dictate which book they head to. A literature critic will tell you both books are bad, the general audience will tell you both are great, an individual person's personal prejudices will tell you which is preferred. Funnily enough modern literature doesn't really sell, so maybe the general audience just doesn't like "good stuff"
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 19, 2020 22:40:10 GMT
I think Star Trek IV had the final word on modern literature.
Edit: come to think of it, that gag's completely on point here.
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Post by river82 on Feb 19, 2020 22:51:18 GMT
*Has never watched Star Trek* *Slinks out of thread in shame*
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 19, 2020 22:55:46 GMT
Here's the scene.
(Can't stand doing a proper embed on mobile. One of these days I'll have to memorize that code)
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 20, 2020 2:07:14 GMT
Keep in mind that nowhere I've claimed that Rowling is the wordsmithiest of wordsmiths - I've simply said that Twilight is not up to par in both storytelling and wordsmithing quality, which is simply true. One doesn't have to be a literary critic to see that. Erm ... sorry but they're actually about the same I suspect 50 Shades of Grey might be slightly worse because it started out as a Twilight fanfiction story before it was modified, but Rowling's prose and Meyer's prose are both about the same tier. Except HP is mediocre 3rd person prose and Twilight is mediocre first person prose *shrugs* You did say later that Rowling has a better vocabulary and literature skill and that's what I mean. I know that to someone who is very fluent in the language of literature many pieces that the general audience considers great are pretty 'meh' - it's similar with me, especially when it comes to the craftsmanship of visual arts. But overall I can still read Harry Potter alright. I have a hard time getting through 50 Shades and Twilight on prose alone. I keep noticing I'm not the only one. The prose of Harry Potter may be mediocre, but it's generally inobstructive to the story it tells, while I lack similar feeling in the other two, where choices made to construct or describe a scene are like... 'what?' Of course, there is a valid criticism of the *criticism* of Twilight and 50 Shades, stemming from oft negative attitude towards entertainment targeted at women and thus the backlash these books experience may have been unfairly harsh... with that said, I don't think I've seen many people, professional or whatnot, who think that these books can be considered equal much on any level. The more depressing part though is that Harry Potter is a prose targeting young kids and early teens, Twilight was a hit among teen girls (and moms, for some reason), while 50 Shades is supposed to be prose for adults.... yet the quality overall keeps *decreasing* instead of increasing I think this is slightly unfair - both games and game journalism already had some time to mature and had other mediums/fields of criticism to at least get some basics from. I think the problem lies more with the fact that games are a new type of medium. There are overlaps, naturally, especially with movies (particularly now that technological advances allow games to draw with bucketloads from cinematic and storytelling traditions), but I think if you took a professional movie critic and told them to write a review of a game they may not have had produced particularly stronger review (that of course, depending on their own adaptability and knowledge/passion for the medium). I don't think I've made any claims that we can *objectively* measure things like works of art, I however maintain that it's not like we don't have any tools to measure quality whatsoever. In fact I don't think I've ever brought professional critics, save to address your reply and based my measurement more on long-term cultural impact among wider audience. You should see the amount of views for particular 'books' on sites like Wattpad But most of this stuff is free and that itself will make people read stuff of varying quality, so long as it's more accessible. Internet and digital forms of distribution (and the fact we can consume stuff on portable devices at almost all places and times) did a lot to change things around, and I'm not necessarily speaking about quality of given creative works (although this obviously has an effect on who's more 'sellable' or even more successful and so on).
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Post by river82 on Feb 20, 2020 2:34:33 GMT
The more depressing part though is that Harry Potter is a prose targeting young kids and early teens, Twilight was a hit among teen girls (and moms, for some reason), while 50 Shades is supposed to be prose for adults.... yet the quality overall keeps *decreasing* instead of increasing It gets worse when you consider books like "The Hobbit" were written for children as well. Of course, there is a valid criticism of the *criticism* of Twilight and 50 Shades, stemming from oft negative attitude towards entertainment targeted at women and thus the backlash these books experience may have been unfairly harsh... with that said, I don't think I've seen many people, professional or whatnot, who think that these books can be considered equal much on any level. There's a section of women's fiction written in a very casual and approachable manner. First person, very close and internal style, lower vocab level to facilitate quick reading, which is sort of the style Twilight was written in. It gets a bad rap for it but they're very popular and I wouldn't go out and say they were worse written. Sophie Kinsella is one author who does very well in this style, with her shopaholic series. But yeah, Twilight muffs it quite a bit. The thing is it's supposed to facilitate light and quick reading, not obfuscate stuff until the reader is scratching their head. But I think you're also correct that the style gets a bad rap regardless as well
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 20, 2020 2:51:15 GMT
I am indifferent to its absence, it to date is the only BioWare game I ever returned and basically what soured me on the whole company way back when, following my disappointment with DAI with MEA and well here we are years later and I haven't given them a dime and they haven't proved themselves worthy of it even I wished to.
Though I do think that these lists aren't really a stand in for personal opinion, especially IGN.
If you want my opinion? The game was horridly mediocre, it tossed aside the two conflicts built up the prior game and novels and had it be relegated to side show to a DLC antagonist and a bald fuck. Combine that with the god awful combat system, a world that is basically vacant, retconned the Qunari to suit modenr politics, introduced Gacha Game mechanics into the franchise...I can go on for a while but I think my point is made.
._. I got plenty of reasons to view it with a dim light, none of them have to do with it making or not making a list, or getting or not getting an award I never cared about.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 21, 2020 20:23:29 GMT
Well... maybe if it's the only game you've played. Sadly, I had played games and RPGs out the wazoo and found TW3 to be middling at best. ....
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Post by smilesja on Feb 21, 2020 20:42:32 GMT
*Has never watched Star Trek* *Slinks out of thread in shame*
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Post by Serza on Feb 21, 2020 22:31:51 GMT
Alright.
To move the genre's sidequesting forward, there had to be something new.
What is the difference between KOTOR+TSL and W3 sidequests, pray tell.
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Post by Kabraxal on Feb 21, 2020 23:02:12 GMT
Alright. To move the genre's sidequesting forward, there had to be something new. What is the difference between KOTOR+TSL and W3 sidequests, pray tell. W3? You mean The Witcher 3? Or Wasteland 3? Anyway, for TW3 the answer, that will enrage some, is nothing. TW3 did nothing new and did not push sidequesting forward in any way. It's the same thing you'll see in Skyrim or Inquisition, but just zoomed the camera up during conversations. Hell, most of the missions are just cut and paste "talk, go, use senses, follow, kill, complete".
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 21, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
Hmm... so what's your working hypothesis as to how TW3 got the reputation it has?
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Post by Kabraxal on Feb 22, 2020 0:09:43 GMT
Hmm... so what's your working hypothesis as to how TW3 got the reputation it has? Simplistic story, lots of blood, lots of nudity, and it hit during the peak of the dark fantasy fad that had been gripping television. Sometimes, mediocre things release at the right time and it just happened TW3 released at a good time for its rather boorish style. If not for Game of Thrones, I don't know if this game would have reached the financial success it did. Also, props to CDPR for working the PR machine to perfection and actually making people believe they "cared" with the "free" dlc stunt. It was sneaky yet obvious to me, but a lot of people bought it hook, line and sinker.
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Post by river82 on Feb 22, 2020 0:09:55 GMT
Hmm... so what's your working hypothesis as to how TW3 got the reputation it has? *Conspiracy theories incoming*
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