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Post by Sonya on Jan 9, 2020 18:32:11 GMT
We're at the point of over-analyzing and nitpicking due to lack of material yes, we are. I don't ague with that at all. Analyzing one of the game aspects. Is it something wrong to write players don't understand what we are analyzing now? No matter how many players are confused I might add (even if only a few players are confused - they are people as well). In my opinion - nothing wrong with it.A question is asked - so we can make assumptions here, nothing more. I'm not sure there's much else to say here there isn't, since we know nothing why it has been made in such a way. Speculate on something is useful for cognitive processes, but unless devs themselves explain what is going on - no point in further discussion.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 9, 2020 19:12:49 GMT
We're at the point of over-analyzing and nitpicking due to lack of material yes, we are. I don't ague with that at all. Analyzing one of the game aspects. Is it something wrong to write players don't understand what we are analyzing now? No matter how many players are confused I might add (even if only a few players are confused - they are people as well). In my opinion - nothing wrong with it.A question is asked - so we can make assumptions here, nothing more. I'm not sure there's much else to say here there isn't, since we know nothing why it has been made in such a way. Speculate on something is useful for cognitive processes, but unless devs themselves explain what is going on - no point in further discussion. Well, I'm here - speculating and analyzing so clearly I am for it and don't think there's anything wrong with it. I just don't think there's much meaningful stuff that can be pulled out of it - they've made a design decision that has made Rift Mage similar in combat scenarios to other magic schools, just like they've made Cassandra's Seeker abilities same as Templar ones for sake of combat, despite them being distinct from lore perspective. I'm not sure there's much to know about their decision making - it's probably as simple as them being limited in terms of technical aspects of design on new engine (which we know they were), or didn't think that the distinction between the two was worth distinguishing them in combat, in ways they are distinguising them in writing and lore - probably because there were other things they wanted to focus resources and attention on (which we know game devs do). I mean, only recently it's been revealed that in DAO there are no elvhen assets (buildings, etc) and that all ancient elvhen sites were in fact all built from Tevinter assets. Does this really changes things in story? Not really. The best we can pull out of it is that Tevinter architecture and artifacts were so similar to elvhen (or just plain stolen or appropriated) that they were oftentimes confused for Tevene ones - but that much we've known from accumulated lore itself. The confusion of some can be easily avoided if one keeps in mind that lore pretty much always take precedence over ludonarratively dissonant parts of gameplay - and if it says that Templar and Seeker abilities are similar but different, or if Force/Primal spells and Rift Magic spells are similar but different then that's what they are.
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Post by melbella on Jan 10, 2020 1:56:52 GMT
People understand that spirit sword of Arcane Warrior is different than regular sword Which is why it's called a "spirit sword" and not a "sword"? Different things are called by different names. Why not call Rift Mage Stonefist "Fade Punch" or something to set it apart? Instead, it's called the same thing yet everyone is supposed to just pretend it's different because "Rift Magic" is the new thing nobody understands.
Still waiting to see Cassandra light up the lyrium in someone's veins. You know, her main Seeker ability that she can only talk about but never actually use?
It's not about being 'confused.' It's about being irritated because I'm being told one thing and shown another.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 10, 2020 2:36:21 GMT
People understand that spirit sword of Arcane Warrior is different than regular sword Which is why it's called a "spirit sword" and not a "sword"? Different things are called by different names. Why not call Rift Mage Stonefist "Fade Punch" or something to set it apart? Instead, it's called the same thing yet everyone is supposed to just pretend it's different because "Rift Magic" is the new thing nobody understands. Nobody was confused when darkspawn mages sent identically looking or identically named spells at us, because we knew from lore that these aren't the same spells as they use a source thought as separate from the Fade (so there's even less connection between them than Primal/Force magic and Rift magic which use same source of magic). The same way we know what kind of Stonefist we use, because both the lore (and skill tree) tells us so. This really isn't rocket science. At this point this feels like trying to find problems where there really aren't that many. You mean like many things that are mentioned or we've seen done, but can't be actively used? I think it's a general understanding that games have budget and technical limitations and quite a few things that are mentioned in story or lore aren't necessarily part of gameplay (I mean, even if they've had budget and no technical limits, it isn't necessarily a good thing to cram everything there is and not many games/other mediums do that anyway). For example - I really liked doing stuff like occasionally using telekinesis and fixing platforms or lifting that ginormous crate in Coracavus with my mages - but I was unable to use such skill in combat, even though it'd be both useful and hilarious if I could just lift something like a cart or a giant qunari and telekinetically whack every enemy with them (Devouring Veil was the closes to that hence it was among my fav abilities to use). It'd be cool if my First of the Dalish clan mage could use their unique elvhen abilities, like manipulating roots, too. But I couldn't. It's present enough in gameplay/story for me to know that my mage can do a lot more magic than what is present in combat skill tree, so why should Cassandra's ability be in question? Other example - we know that Solas is capable of using different types of magic than what's in his skill tree. We know he has mysterious Dreamer abilities, that weird blue magic stuff and Weekes made it quite clear that he's capable of shapeshifting... Should his skills be questioned, just because they aren't part of active gameplay? Should we really believe that characters like Varric, Solas or Cass - all of them combat veterans with considerable skill and experience - suddenly forgotten all they knew save one ability at the start of the game? I'm all for trying to connect gameplay and story in thorough and clever ways, but I think most of us get it that gameplay and combat don't necessarily reflect the whole of lore or story, even if only because it'd probably be a bad design decision to do so.
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Post by Sonya on Jan 10, 2020 10:59:30 GMT
Well, I'm here - speculating and analyzing so clearly I am for it and don't think there's anything wrong with it. Clearly.So you just describe one and the same thing in different ways writing huge paragraphs. I also see nothing wrong with it (as I mentioned in my posts). It's not about being 'confused.' It's about being irritated because I'm being told one thing and shown another. players not only confused but irritated as well. I feel the same way, but as well confused because of the reasons you have already mentioned. For me "the same thing" if write it in short.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 12, 2020 8:34:30 GMT
Other example - we know that Solas is capable of using different types of magic than what's in his skill tree. We know he has mysterious Dreamer abilities, that weird blue magic stuff and Weekes made it quite clear that he's capable of shapeshifting... Should his skills be questioned, just because they aren't part of active gameplay?Same with Morrigan's shapeshifting in Origins.
Despite her skill tree only giving us the option to turn into a Spider, Bear and a Swarm of Insects, we know that she's canonically capable of far more forms than the game represented, such as Wolves, Mabari and Ravens.
Sometimes we have to accept the limitations of gameplay meaning that characters don't have access to certain skills they should have. Like how according to the lore, Elves and Dwarves should possess superb night-vision, but this trait has never featured in any game.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 12, 2020 14:51:25 GMT
Other example - we know that Solas is capable of using different types of magic than what's in his skill tree. We know he has mysterious Dreamer abilities, that weird blue magic stuff and Weekes made it quite clear that he's capable of shapeshifting... Should his skills be questioned, just because they aren't part of active gameplay?Same with Morrigan's shapeshifting in Origins.
Despite her skill tree only giving us the option to turn into a Spider, Bear and a Swarm of Insects, we know that she's canonically capable of far more forms than the game represented, such as Wolves, Mabari and Ravens.
Sometimes we have to accept the limitations of gameplay meaning that characters don't have access to certain skills they should have. Like how according to the lore, Elves and Dwarves should possess superb night-vision, but this trait has never featured in any game.
Yea, we saw 'elf-vision' in Crossroads in Trespasser (Crossroads in main game only had a faint visual effect), but aside from that being a meaningful enough narrative element to be implemented, I think it's not without significance that they ditched the old-gen consoles for the sake of DLC. We also know that becoming a Templar comes with lyrium ingestion and dealing with effects of withdrawal and so on, yet none of that was featured as part of gameplay anywhere - only spoken about or written in story and lore. And we've had DA developers chime in and say that there were plans to add that as a gameplay element, but decided not to. IRC, it was actually bothersome, rather than immersive.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 14, 2020 6:42:39 GMT
We also know that becoming a Templar comes with lyrium ingestion and dealing with effects of withdrawal and so on, yet none of that was featured as part of gameplay anywhere - only spoken about or written in story and lore. And we've had DA developers chime in and say that there were plans to add that as a gameplay element, but decided not to. IRC, it was actually bothersome, rather than immersive. Didn't the devs originally want the companions to be susceptible to the Blight as well, which would have forced us to have to put them through the Joining to save their lives? I think they mentioned abandoning the idea for the same reason as lyrium-withdrawal, because it was too much of a pain to implement.
Maybe Wesley and Bethany/Carver catching the Blight in DA2 were the devs subtly lampshading how lucky our companions were in DAO, by showing that not everyone who fights darkspawn or ventures into the Deep Roads comes away unscathed?
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Post by Iddy on Jan 22, 2020 14:20:38 GMT
I really don't think the concept 'similar, but different' is that hard to grasp what's the point of this thread anyway? Players don't understand "why". And confused. Of course it is not hard to grasp. My whole post refered to "some players don't understand why present it as a new school"/"Spells are similar". It is not hard to grasp I thought. And I tried to express my point of view of this "why" situation. Period. People got into their heads that this thread is about similarities and comparisons, for whatever reason.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 25, 2020 23:32:57 GMT
what's the point of this thread anyway? Players don't understand "why". And confused. Of course it is not hard to grasp. My whole post refered to "some players don't understand why present it as a new school"/"Spells are similar". It is not hard to grasp I thought. And I tried to express my point of view of this "why" situation. Period. People got into their heads that this thread is about similarities and comparisons, for whatever reason. Is it really that surprising? Even if certain people (ex. Solas) are using rift magic, it clearly comes from a different magical tradition/research from whatever the Trainer came up with. Or if they are not using rift magic, then they are most likely using magic with comparable effects and/or appearance. Comparing similarities and contrasts between different known magical schools seems natural.
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