xMissWoox
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Post by xMissWoox on Jan 15, 2020 18:24:41 GMT
Plus, at least there's something salvageable out of it in terms of actual discussion - if BW or EA wanted to cut costs when developing a title like Dragon Age, how would they do that or what steps would they take? Or - could DA game be about one, fixed character?You know, when I think about it I'm surprised that BW didn't simply make Hawke a mage by default and just allowed the player to choose a specific combat style. So you would be a mage, but could choose to fight with a sword and shield, a greatsword, daggers, a bow, or use magic instead. It would've helped cement Hawke's personal stake in the mage/templar conflict instead of having to rely on Bethany to provide an emotional stake, and would've simplified the writing and maybe made the story more cohesive because the devs wouldn't've had to make allowances for a non-mage Hawke vs a mage Hawke. They did do something similar with MEA - it's sort of assumed that Ryder is always a biotic, but you can choose to use guns or tech instead, so I don't think it's entirely unprecedented. The DA team might feel differently though, since it seems like with each game coming out they've put more and more emphasis of class restrictions. DA2 stopped warriors from dual-wielding and using bows, and stopped mages from using weapons other than staffs. Then DAI took it a step further by not allowing you to switch out weapons in combat, meaning you sort of had to pick bows or daggers and stick with it. Personally I'd rather DA4 opened the classes up a bit, akin to DAO, but I doubt that'll happen to be honest.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 15, 2020 22:18:24 GMT
Class restriction is a natural evolution of simplification. It cuts development costs.
Think about it. Eliminate Dual Wielding and all the development costs for combat rolls disappear. You now have the time and resources freed up to do something else in the game. Same with mage combat. Same with a game design that has two companions instead of three. Same with a reduced number of total NPC companions (I think DA:I had too many). VA costs = down.
Look at Anthem. No NPC companions, no romance, no NPC Voice Overs = cost reductions in writing, cut scenes.. etc.
Analyzing past Bio behaviours and game success and EA's past decisions to cancel studios out of existence because of reasons... can give us clues as to what kind of features DA4 will have. I still maintain that Bio is not tied down to producing a DAI version 2.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 16, 2020 13:25:49 GMT
I wouldn't play it. Female only = OK, male only = disappointing but still OK, non-human only = Not OK.
Out of curiosity: Why? An elf for example is basically just an anorexic looking human. A dwarf is a small chubby human. It's not like you'd be playing a tentacle monster.
I'll play any race and gender if the story is good, myself. And I would in fact be overjoyed about a non human PC in a Mass Effect game.
Exactly because an elf is nothing more than a human with specific stereotypical characteristics about which I do not have a choice. I don't like the appearance of the so-called non-humans, while they're not non-human enough to avoid using human aesthetic standards. Playing a tentacle monster would at least be interesting, and human aesthetic standards would be irrelevant.
And BTW, the same applies to "non-humans" in ME. I would find it extremely interesting to play a character from a truly non-human species, one with a non-human psychology, but there aren't any since they're all made with the thought in mind that we need to effortlessly empathize with them. That writers have trouble with such characters shouldn't come as a surprise, but written SF has at least conceived of a few. From Bioware, who seem to be deathly afraid of values dissonance even among otherwise friendly characters, I wouldn't even expect an attempt.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 16, 2020 15:08:05 GMT
Are we actually taking this hypothetical exercise in brand suicide seriously? No we're not. This thread is merely one of Sartoz silly clutching at straws. The rest (most) of us are here for the laughs I guess. Yeah it's a bit ridiculous to think that Biowaer would remove female options in the game and it would be just as ridiculous to think they'd do the same with males if anything in more recent times I'd say Bioware have tried to become even more inclusive.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 16, 2020 15:16:08 GMT
Not suer about the Male VA bein gcreepy as it sounds fine to me though I wil l as yI think the female VA's in the last few games hav been much better. I've definitely felt more comnjnected t om yfemale Inquisitors aqnd Sara Ryder at least anyway more than I have the male versions. Maybe the word I used "creepy" is not suitable and doesn't really describe what I really wanted to express. For me Shep voice is better in paragon phrases, though some renegade phrases are also good - Meer just pronounces them in a dfferent way and most of the time (aka almost all the the game ) it is not suitable for me (though I saw PTs with a male Shep many times, played myself as a male Shep...still something wrong, not my type). The same with DA voices. I started DA2 as a male Hawke, played about 3-4 time, but after listening female Hawke I really don't even remember when I last played as a male - I just adore my female Hawke. Awesome VA. In DAI also nearly the same, British or American VA - they are good in some dialogues (I played both), but tbh, I wanted to finish the game ASAP just not to hear male VA. BUT female VA is better, but not as good as fem Shep. Still both - British and American fem VA are much better for me and I listen to them very simple, w/o any bad emotions. And btw, Sara voice is better as well. Much better imo. But still VA is not the first reason why I prefer females. Can't do anything with the second reason. Plus huge male bodybulder figures interfere with the battle - I just can't see the battlefield (dwarves are very short and I feel very uncomfortable during the battle, not for me - as I prefer warriors). I thought both the ME trilogy and DA2 wer both pretty equal in termsof performanc eas ther we re things I liked about both and a few things I disliked too. Bu tdefinitely in both DAI and MEA the female VA's definitel yput in a stronger preformance. ThoughI will say with regards MEA Tom did a good job with Scott I think it's more Frydda just played it out of the park with Sara in comparison
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 16, 2020 17:14:48 GMT
They'll remove a lot of other options before removing the option to play as a female protagonist.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jan 17, 2020 12:20:31 GMT
Exactly because an elf is nothing more than a human with specific stereotypical characteristics about which I do not have a choice. I don't like the appearance of the so-called non-humans, while they're not non-human enough to avoid using human aesthetic standards. Playing a tentacle monster would at least be interesting, and human aesthetic standards would be irrelevant.
And BTW, the same applies to "non-humans" in ME. I would find it extremely interesting to play a character from a truly non-human species, one with a non-human psychology, but there aren't any since they're all made with the thought in mind that we need to effortlessly empathize with them. That writers have trouble with such characters shouldn't come as a surprise, but written SF has at least conceived of a few. From Bioware, who seem to be deathly afraid of values dissonance even among otherwise friendly characters, I wouldn't even expect an attempt.
Ah, I see. That makes sense. And yes, I agree about the last sentence. Then again, considering how the vast majority of people play human whenever there is a race option, I'm not surprised that having a truly alien perspective is not considered a wise decision for a mainstream product. Pity.
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Post by Gwydden on Jan 18, 2020 3:06:30 GMT
And BTW, the same applies to "non-humans" in ME. I would find it extremely interesting to play a character from a truly non-human species, one with a non-human psychology, but there aren't any since they're all made with the thought in mind that we need to effortlessly empathize with them. That writers have trouble with such characters shouldn't come as a surprise, but written SF has at least conceived of a few. From Bioware, who seem to be deathly afraid of values dissonance even among otherwise friendly characters, I wouldn't even expect an attempt.
I can't say I agree with this bit. I don't think that we as a species are any good at imagining truly alien beings, so limited exposure is frequently key to the maintenance of that sense of alienation. RPGs are too intimate in terms of the player/player-character relationship. Preserving the necessary distance becomes impossible in those circumstances. Strategy games are better suited to that sort of thing, both because they are more abstract and because their mechanics encourage the player to behave in unusual ways already. At any rate, I confess that I usually default to humans in most games that give the choice. For me, a big part of the appeal of speculative fiction is seeing relatively "regular" people deal with the supernatural and the futuristic. In an RPG, I'd much rather be Randolph Carter than Cthulhu, rather Thomas the Rhymer than the Queen of Elfland, rather Faust than Mephistopheles.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 19, 2020 0:56:11 GMT
Despite Bioware often suffering total blindness when it comes to the wishes of their fanbase there is an exact 0,0% chance of the next Dragon Age not having female lead.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 19, 2020 21:56:42 GMT
And BTW, the same applies to "non-humans" in ME. I would find it extremely interesting to play a character from a truly non-human species, one with a non-human psychology, but there aren't any since they're all made with the thought in mind that we need to effortlessly empathize with them. That writers have trouble with such characters shouldn't come as a surprise, but written SF has at least conceived of a few. From Bioware, who seem to be deathly afraid of values dissonance even among otherwise friendly characters, I wouldn't even expect an attempt.
I can't say I agree with this bit. I don't think that we as a species are any good at imagining truly alien beings, so limited exposure is frequently key to the maintenance of that sense of alienation. RPGs are too intimate in terms of the player/player-character relationship. Preserving the necessary distance becomes impossible in those circumstances. Strategy games are better suited to that sort of thing, both because they are more abstract and because their mechanics encourage the player to behave in unusual ways already. At any rate, I confess that I usually default to humans in most games that give the choice. For me, a big part of the appeal of speculative fiction is seeing relatively "regular" people deal with the supernatural and the futuristic. In an RPG, I'd much rather be Randolph Carter than Cthulhu, rather Thomas the Rhymer than the Queen of Elfland, rather Faust than Mephistopheles. "OUR GOALS ARE BEYOND THE COMPREHENSION OF MERE HUMANS." "Is it that your planet is dying from over-development and you need our resources?" "... NO... SHUT UP."
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Post by Beerfish on Jan 23, 2020 23:55:06 GMT
Tough for studios to win as BioWare was criticized for having womens walk and run like men in some earlier games so they made special animations and got eviscerated for having weird looking walk and run animations.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 24, 2020 1:01:35 GMT
Tough for studios to win as BioWare was criticized for having womens walk and run like men in some earlier games so they made special animations and got eviscerated for having weird looking walk and run animations. Yeah, but its all true! Male walking/running animations for female characters = bad. Female walking/running animations that resemble a cross between a catwalk model and a raptor = also bad. Invisible bicycle animation from ME3 and Andromeda = don't get me started.... People: ''Make proper animations for both genders and you win.'' Biower: Sorry Bioware, but its just true. Fix your damn animations.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 24, 2020 22:57:44 GMT
Tough for studios to win as BioWare was criticized for having womens walk and run like men in some earlier games so they made special animations and got eviscerated for having weird looking walk and run animations.
What did you expect? Bio went from one side of the pendulum to the extreme opposite side in DA2. There was a huge discussion about that in the old Bio BSN.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 25, 2020 0:21:33 GMT
Tough for studios to win as BioWare was criticized for having womens walk and run like men in some earlier games so they made special animations and got eviscerated for having weird looking walk and run animations.
What did you expect? Bio went from one side of the pendulum to the extreme opposite side in DA2. There was a huge discussion about that in the old Bio BSN.
Indeed. Bioware always seems to overcompensate when it comes to course-correcting. "Moderation" isn't really in their vocabulary.
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Post by Beerfish on Jan 25, 2020 0:28:45 GMT
Tough for studios to win as BioWare was criticized for having womens walk and run like men in some earlier games so they made special animations and got eviscerated for having weird looking walk and run animations.
What did you expect? Bio went from one side of the pendulum to the extreme opposite side in DA2. There was a huge discussion about that in the old Bio BSN.
Yeah and it was a stupid discussion. The actually did something that the fans called for but hey, it is not just the way I want the animation to look so it sucks.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 25, 2020 3:39:39 GMT
It was a stupid discussion to begin with. There's no earthly reason why a female character should walk or run differently from a male one.
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Post by melbella on Jan 25, 2020 4:17:35 GMT
There's no earthly reason why a female character should walk or run differently from a male one. No earthly reason other than the fact women move differently than men in real life?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 25, 2020 4:19:32 GMT
There's no earthly reason why a female character should walk or run differently from a male one. No earthly reason other than the fact women move differently than men in real life? Pretty much. I have never seen, in real life, a woman walk like a man (or the reverse), unless they were actively trying to. Different hips, or so I'm told.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 25, 2020 4:31:39 GMT
There's no earthly reason why a female character should walk or run differently from a male one. No earthly reason other than the fact women move differently than men in real life? Right, cause that's what video games are about: copying 'real life'. Even if men and women do move differently, and I'm not going to accept that on your word alone, there's no sensible reason to animate them differently in a video game, especially when they'll be doing a bunch of shit that people don't do in "real liiiiiife nyer nyeeeeer". Anyone who gives a shit about it is a complete weirdo. I can't even begin to comprehend the alien psychology of a person who'd think it's an issue worthy of COMPLAINT. But hey, if anyone here really has this much time on their hands, then by all means, show me the Kinesiology study that compares and contrasts the posture/movement of male and female bodies while casting spells and fighting dragons.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 25, 2020 4:39:12 GMT
No earthly reason other than the fact women move differently than men in real life? Right, cause that's what video games are about: copying 'real life'. Even if men and women do move differently, and I'm not going to accept that on your word alone, there's no sensible reason to animate them differently in a video game, especially when they'll be doing a bunch of shit that people don't do in "real liiiiiife nyer nyeeeeer". Anyone who gives a shit about it is a complete weirdo. I can't even begin to comprehend the alien psychology of a person who'd think it's an issue worthy of COMPLAINT. But hey, if anyone here really has this much time on their hands, then by all means, show me the Kinesiology study that compares and contrasts the posture/movement of male and female bodies while casting spells and fighting dragons. It's not worthy of complaint. But you said; "there's no earthly reason...", when there is a reason. If having different walking/running and sitting animations (because that's all we're talking about with regards to DAI as the most recent example) means female main characters have to be cut, then screw the animations. Have female PCs and both genders have the same animation. But that excuse is bullshit, because those tiny few animations are not going to amount to the budgeting difference between having PCs of one gender or two genders. Which loops back to the whole conversation being stupid.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jan 25, 2020 5:59:07 GMT
Neutral animations for all. Done.
(Anything's gotta be better than Hawke's broken pelvis, which the Inquisitor apparently inherited.)
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 25, 2020 6:04:24 GMT
Neutral animations for all. Done. (Anything's gotta be better than Hawke's broken pelvis, which the Inquisitor apparently inherited.) I wouldn't object. The more DA4 does to emulate Origins, the better, in my opinion. Visuals aside, of course.
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Post by river82 on Jan 25, 2020 9:01:53 GMT
No earthly reason other than the fact women move differently than men in real life? Pretty much. I have never seen, in real life, a woman walk like a man (or the reverse), unless they were actively trying to. Different hips, or so I'm told. Yeah, it is well documented women walk differently due to pelvic bones and hips. As someone who follows the sport of cycling this sort of stuff has caused a lot of problems for women. Because bicycle seats have primarily been designed by men for men, these seats sometimes causes women quite a bit of pain and discomfort and even injury using. Which is a sad state of affairs. It's also been blamed for turning women away from cycling in general, recreationally or otherwise. Because the hip and pelvic bone structure is different women generally need a wider saddle than men. The same biological differences causes women to walk slightly differently. It's not something I'd regard as important though. It doesn't actually add anything to the world so the neutral walking in Origins is fine. Priorities and all that jazz lol (bring back strategic combat )
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 26, 2020 17:20:53 GMT
Men and women even have a different center of gravity making some movements for men impossible and vice versa.-
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 27, 2020 3:13:46 GMT
Sure. That's why women can't somersault through the air and land sword-point first on a dragon's head.
Gravity.
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