Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 3, 2020 23:03:12 GMT
I think you and I have very different memories of what Saturday morning cartoons were actually like. In any case, the only game in the entire series that was ever particularly somber was Mass Effect 3. For the most part, all of the Mass Effect titles had more than a sufficient amount of lightheartedness throughout. They were all pulpy adventure stories where you could save practically everyone, and the grit and violence of the world was strictly limited to just a few key moments outside of the combat gameplay itself. Heck, setting someone on fire in Mass Effect 2 is not even remotely intense; it's just hilarious. The series as a whole has very few interpersonal dramas or scenes of real intensity, and avoiding consequence, for the most part, is laughably easy. I love Mass Effect for what it offers, but I won't kid myself thinking that the trilogy in its entirety was all that serious. If anything, one of Mass Effect 3's biggest problems is that it started taking itself too seriously, a thing that makes Citadel seem to clash so badly with it.
Overall, I think it was the general lightheartedness of the series that made it so good in the first place. It didn't try to drag you down with some dour bullshit like "life is constantly awful" or something. Killing the enemy was nothing but fun, and on our off time got to shoot the shit and joke about with a bunch of galactic weirdos. All that stuff about existential threats added the serious element, but it was tempered by the lower stakes adventure and amusing set pieces.
If Mass Effect were to go the way of grimdark, it would lose everything that made it fun in the first place. Adding more death and violence doesn't automatically create a more compelling narrative. If anything, it could just as well pose a danger of making it all feel entirely disconnected. I use Dark Apokalips War as an example because that's exactly how I felt about that stupid movie. Heroes just die left and right unceremoniously, and that pointlessness only made each new snuff along the way feel even less impactful, to the point where I didn't really give a shit where it went from there.
The Mass Effect OT has it's light moments, yes, but unlike Andromeda, the characters in the OT actually react to things as people would. They don't try to be Billy McSnark Quip all the time. I imagine if you enjoy the Marvel films then you would probably enjoy the style of writing used in Andromeda, but it's not for me. I don't mind the odd quip, Garrus saying "Yeah definitely like old times!" while dodging a grenade in Mass Effect 2 was a fun moment, but I don't need that ALL the time. All this scene needed was a laughing track.
So you're saying that BioWare should avoid a successful and winning formula because it doesn't appeal to you but to a larger audience? How many copies of say an ultra grimdark super depressing and violent MEA2 are YOU willing to buy and support? Are you going to buy a copy on each platform it's released on to show your support for an ultra grimdark, super depressing and violent video games, even platforms that you don't have and probably never will get? Because that is the only way that a BioWare game going down that route would make money.
The characters in MEA react in the way that I would in a space faring civilization that humanity has already made first contact with dozens of aliens and been allies with most of them for close to 30 years which is: been there and done that. Meeting the angara is a big deal for the Nexus but the average person living on say on Eos or Karada is probably as not a big deal to them as you because humans are living with turians, asari, salarians, and krogan before they left Milky Way and a new species is not aa big deal to them.
The reason why the Marvel films are written like that is like that is simple: because it works and makes them a LOT of money. When you consider that almost every one of those films has been a huge money maker proves why BioWare should go that route with Mass Effect and maybe even Dragon Age in terms of a successful financial model. That would be the one I would copy, and if I lose say 5% of my fanbase but pick up say new fans that double that well tough shit for you.
I'm sorry but the reason why the Marvel films are beloved and the DC films are divisive is because DC has no confidence in Superman as a solo film because of the stupidity of Zack Snyder, the Nolan Brothers, David Goyer, and that Henry Cavil is the worst actor working today. The most successful of the DC films are the ones that copy Marvel like Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam in terms of their tones and their writing and sheer wackiness like Aquaman making a BILLION dollars worldwide and having everything up to and including the kitchen sink thrown in and oh yeah, Aquaman acts more like Thor in Thor Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War, and Avengers: Endgame in that he drinks a lot of beer, makes bad jokes, hangs out with fans, and has whiling having out of this world adventures chasing for magical items to stop them from falling into the hands of evil villains with beautiful women acting both has his superior in terms of knowing what is going on and explaining things to him and his equal in battle and has a happy ending.
That is why DC films are such a hit and miss right now and even their animated films once damn near untouchable are now fucking awful The Flashpoint Paradox was the absolute worst animated films I've ever had the misfortune to watch, other than Batman: Bad Blood was the only one set in the New 52 animated DCU that I would say was OK, the rest are boring slogs and horrible adaptions of stories that have dated poorly over the years like Batman: The Killing Joke or just violent for no reason to show heroes acting more like villains and gore for the sake of it.
The area where DC has been constantly beating the crap out of Marvel is live action TV shows mostly because the Arrowverse shows have been presenting these characters the way that the films should've been doing since Man of Steel debuted and showed how Superman shouldn't be presented. I mean if I want to watch a real good live action Justice League film just watch Crisis on Earth-X and The Crisis on Infinite Earths crossovers. While the Netflix Marvel shows tried but I couldn't care about give a damn about Daredevil, Iron Fist, The Punisher and The Defenders the only good shows were Jessica Jones and Luke Cage and even they became more boring by the end. The first season of Agent Carter was probably the best of their TV shows the second season was BORING as hell to watch, I checked out of Agents of SHIELD after season 2 and from what I've read I haven't missed much and I've never seen The Inhumans which again from what I've read I didn't seem to missing much.
There is a time and a place for fun and upbeat as well grimdark but the story needs to be considered first. Exo-Squad has racial oppression, politics, a race war, death, and genocide in the first five episodes and actually gets darker as the series goes on. It also shows hope, love, and humor. If Universal would remake that series with better animation (up to date character models, and mecha designs) and released it on Peacock they would have a hit because there is a market for adult animation but honestly I'm sick of all the adult animation basically being bad comedies trying to be weird meta ironic social satires and most of them failing at both. I want a dark action sci-fi and/or fantasy animated show that isn't part of a decades long running anime franchise and/or anime series from the 90s, a series that is aimed just at me not one that is aimed at me and a nine year kid. But just because I want that doesn't mean that there is a huge market that does and I openly admit that.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jul 3, 2020 23:08:23 GMT
The Mass Effect OT has it's light moments, yes, but unlike Andromeda, the characters in the OT actually react to things as people would. They don't try to be Billy McSnark Quip all the time. I imagine if you enjoy the Marvel films then you would probably enjoy the style of writing used in Andromeda, but it's not for me. I don't mind the odd quip, Garrus saying "Yeah definitely like old times!" while dodging a grenade in Mass Effect 2 was a fun moment, but I don't need that ALL the time. Mass Effect’s roster isn’t exactly known for its in-depth reactivity. Dragon Age handles that better than the ME cast. The former is a lot more static, especially when it comes to Shepard’s dialogue and actions. So I wouldn’t say they react as people would, but they react enough to at least feel like companions rather than empty bots. As for Andromeda, people on this forum like to greatly exaggerate the amount of actual quips that exist throughout the game. The game isn’t constantly making jokes, and isn’t really aiming for a lot of one-liners. A lot of the dialogue people criticize the most tends to be dialogue you have to actively choose. This is basically the DA2 “problem” all over again, where the purple dialogue options were constantly a point of dislike, even though you weren’t obligated to choose those lines throughout. Mass Effect 2 remains the game that pushes more for the humorous dialogue. People can deny it all they want, but they’d be wrong.I do enjoy (most of) the Marvel films, but you’d have to be specific which films you’re referring to, seeing as how they’re just so many of them. The funny thing though is that the “best” game of the trilogy just so happens to fit the Marvel template to a T. Bunch of outlandish, powerful weirdos with personal demons and a knowing smirk about a lot of its dialogue and set pieces, with a big dumb action ending. That’s why people love it. Even better, it even shares the big empty villain problem that a great many Marvel films actually suffer from. Infinity War was a heck of a lot more serious than Mass Effect 2 was. Lol okay. You mention the 'knowing smirk' in the OT trilogy but I really don't see it. For Mass Effect Andromeda, the characters practically always have the 'knowing smirk', and it detracts from the narrative. You must understand that it's not just the lines themselves but the way they're delivered. Ryder always carries a relaxed Spider man like demeanour all game. The game might say there's galaxy defying stakes but the characters never act with any sort of realistic intensity. I would say the Mass Effect trilogy is much more alike the Terminator films, or the Matrix trilogy, in terms of it's presentation. There are popcorn moments but within the game the characters take the narrative very seriously. Andromeda is much more like an MCU spiderman film.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 3, 2020 23:13:22 GMT
It’s giving the trilogy too much credit to really put it on par with the Matrix in terms of presentation. The sequels likewise got....problematic, but ME1 is definitely nowhere near the Matrix in terms of presenting its plot and revelation. In retrospect, the revelation regarding the reapers itself only gets worse with time, and is the progenitor of many of the trilogy’s massive problems.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 8:02:10 GMT
Huh, I thought the Matrix films were overly prentious, barley followable and aesthetically nauseating, qualifications I'd not use to describe any game of the Mass Effect trilogy.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 4, 2020 15:33:56 GMT
So you're saying that BioWare should avoid a successful and winning formula because it doesn't appeal to you but to a larger audience? How many copies of say an ultra grimdark super depressing and violent MEA2 are YOU willing to buy and support? Are you going to buy a copy on each platform it's released on to show your support for an ultra grimdark, super depressing and violent video games, even platforms that you don't have and probably never will get? Because that is the only way that a BioWare game going down that route would make money.
Batman started as a rather comedic comic and now is so grimdark and edgy you can cut yourself just by looking at it. Batman on his own premise is a super rich mary sue man child who never grew up mentally past the moment he parents died as a kid. And so devotes his millions of dollars to dress up as a bat and beat up poor and mentally disabled people. While doing fuck all to actually fix any problems with his money and influence. As Gotham still some how is the most crime infested city in the USA. Who regularly clashes with super villains who have body counts that number in the double to triple digit with each encounter and yet hands them over to clearly incompetent police force and criminal justice system. So they break out and kill another 10 to 20 people and repeating the cycle of violence and death over and over again.
The basic premise of batman sounds like it is right out of Warhammer 40k grimdark future. Just change Bruce Wayne to Commissar Yarrick and Joker to Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and Gotham City to the planet Armageddon and you basically have the same plot in space. Yarrick can't kill Ghazghkull because plot reasons and Ghazghkull won't kill Yarrick because he is the only humie worth fighting and makes it fun for a big war boss like him.
Also Warhammer 40k has been around since like the 80's. So 40 years of existence shows grim dark can be a sustainable set up.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 4, 2020 16:39:01 GMT
So you're saying that BioWare should avoid a successful and winning formula because it doesn't appeal to you but to a larger audience? How many copies of say an ultra grimdark super depressing and violent MEA2 are YOU willing to buy and support? Are you going to buy a copy on each platform it's released on to show your support for an ultra grimdark, super depressing and violent video games, even platforms that you don't have and probably never will get? Because that is the only way that a BioWare game going down that route would make money.
Batman started as a rather comedic comic and now is so grimdark and edgy you can cut yourself just by looking at it. Batman on his own premise is a super rich mary sue man child who never grew up mentally past the moment he parents died as a kid. And so devotes his millions of dollars to dress up as a bat and beat up poor and mentally disabled people. While doing fuck all to actually fix any problems with his money and influence. As Gotham still some how is the most crime infested city in the USA. Who regularly clashes with super villains who have body counts that number in the double to triple digit with each encounter and yet hands them over to clearly incompetent police force and criminal justice system. So they break out and kill another 10 to 20 people and repeating the cycle of violence and death over and over again.
The basic premise of batman sounds like it is right out of Warhammer 40k grimdark future. Just change Bruce Wayne to Commissar Yarrick and Joker to Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and Gotham City to the planet Armageddon and you basically have the same plot in space. Yarrick can't kill Ghazghkull because plot reasons and Ghazghkull won't kill Yarrick because he is the only humie worth fighting and makes it fun for a big war boss like him.
Also Warhammer 40k has been around since like the 80's. So 40 years of existence shows grim dark can be a sustainable set up.
Indeed. Also, W40K already had a version of Bats, the Night Lord's primarch.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 4, 2020 18:45:24 GMT
Batman started as a rather comedic comic and now is so grimdark and edgy you can cut yourself just by looking at it. Batman on his own premise is a super rich mary sue man child who never grew up mentally past the moment he parents died as a kid. And so devotes his millions of dollars to dress up as a bat and beat up poor and mentally disabled people. While doing fuck all to actually fix any problems with his money and influence. As Gotham still some how is the most crime infested city in the USA. Who regularly clashes with super villains who have body counts that number in the double to triple digit with each encounter and yet hands them over to clearly incompetent police force and criminal justice system. So they break out and kill another 10 to 20 people and repeating the cycle of violence and death over and over again.
The basic premise of batman sounds like it is right out of Warhammer 40k grimdark future. Just change Bruce Wayne to Commissar Yarrick and Joker to Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and Gotham City to the planet Armageddon and you basically have the same plot in space. Yarrick can't kill Ghazghkull because plot reasons and Ghazghkull won't kill Yarrick because he is the only humie worth fighting and makes it fun for a big war boss like him.
Also Warhammer 40k has been around since like the 80's. So 40 years of existence shows grim dark can be a sustainable set up.
Indeed. Also, W40K already had a version of Bats, the Night Lord's primarch. Isn't it odd how Batman is considered a hero and yet apparently he is one neck snap of the Joker away from turning into Konrad Curze.
Konrad Curze for those not familiar with 40k was a traitor Primarch who's gestation pod crashed on the perpetually dark planet of Nostramo. Growing up alone in a dark crime filled planet that makes Gotham City look like a paradise. Due to being a Primarch he had super human capabilities and used that to enact justice on the criminal element of the planet. By disemboweling anyone he thought was acting unlawful. Displaying their mutilated bodies out in the open for everyone to see. Recording audio and of him literally ripping the guts out of people and playing it back for the citizens to watch. His actions so brutal and his campaign of terror so great that not only was he elected ruler of the planet but the entire planet became a model society with no crime to be seen. Not simply because of the social and economic changes Curze implemented that improved life. But also because if he heard of anyone or deemed anyone misbehaving he would go after them and butcher them in the most painful horrific way possible and force the entire rest of the planet to watch it.
Oh and Curze also eventually blew up the planet of Nostramo because in his absence it returned to a corrupt and crime ridden hell hole. And help mold an entire group of super human warriors that could literally rip you limb from limb into serial killers who think forcing you to watch them skin your entire family alive and then put on an elaborate puppet show with their still blood soaked skin as your family dies a slow painful death around you before leaving you alive and forced to sit with their skin draped over your restrained body until someone finds you is considered wholesome family fun times.
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Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 6, 2020 18:00:08 GMT
So you're saying that BioWare should avoid a successful and winning formula because it doesn't appeal to you but to a larger audience? How many copies of say an ultra grimdark super depressing and violent MEA2 are YOU willing to buy and support? Are you going to buy a copy on each platform it's released on to show your support for an ultra grimdark, super depressing and violent video games, even platforms that you don't have and probably never will get? Because that is the only way that a BioWare game going down that route would make money.
Batman started as a rather comedic comic and now is so grimdark and edgy you can cut yourself just by looking at it. Batman on his own premise is a super rich mary sue man child who never grew up mentally past the moment he parents died as a kid. And so devotes his millions of dollars to dress up as a bat and beat up poor and mentally disabled people. While doing fuck all to actually fix any problems with his money and influence. As Gotham still some how is the most crime infested city in the USA. Who regularly clashes with super villains who have body counts that number in the double to triple digit with each encounter and yet hands them over to clearly incompetent police force and criminal justice system. So they break out and kill another 10 to 20 people and repeating the cycle of violence and death over and over again.
The basic premise of batman sounds like it is right out of Warhammer 40k grimdark future. Just change Bruce Wayne to Commissar Yarrick and Joker to Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and Gotham City to the planet Armageddon and you basically have the same plot in space. Yarrick can't kill Ghazghkull because plot reasons and Ghazghkull won't kill Yarrick because he is the only humie worth fighting and makes it fun for a big war boss like him.
Also Warhammer 40k has been around since like the 80's. So 40 years of existence shows grim dark can be a sustainable set up.
You pretty much nailed my problems with modern day Batman.
And sorry but I don't know much about Warhammer to know what you're talking about and to be honest if I wasn't interested in it by now then chances are I will never be very a big fan of Warhammer and/or have much interest in it.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2020 1:57:10 GMT
Batman started as a rather comedic comic and now is so grimdark and edgy you can cut yourself just by looking at it. It started comedic? Are you sure you read the actual early Batman comics?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 7, 2020 11:36:53 GMT
Batman started as a rather comedic comic and now is so grimdark and edgy you can cut yourself just by looking at it. It started comedic? Are you sure you read the actual early Batman comics? Did you see Catwoman's Cat Car?
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Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 10, 2020 13:29:27 GMT
It started comedic? Are you sure you read the actual early Batman comics? Did you see Catwoman's Cat Car?
Have you seen Joker's Car, or the Green Arrow's Arrow car and Arrow Jet (both of which he got rid of years ago)? That is not uncommon for non-superpower heroes to get around hell even some with actual superpowers personalized vehicles like Wonder Woman's invisible jet and Spider-Man's Spider-buggy.
Some like Wonder Woman's invisible jet come and go as the character is re-imagined, rebooted, reworked, de-powered/re-powered, and what the creators and editors at DC want to use into the new comic continuities and in other media.
While some like the Spider-Buggy was just to promote a toy or something and was quickly wrecked by Spider-Man because he couldn't drive.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 10, 2020 13:39:08 GMT
Did you see Catwoman's Cat Car?
Have you seen Joker's Car, or the Green Arrow's Arrow car and Arrow Jet (both of which he got rid of years ago)? That is not uncommon for non-superpower heroes to get around hell even some with actual superpowers personalized vehicles like Wonder Woman's invisible jet and Spider-Man's Spider-buggy.
Some like Wonder Woman's invisible jet come and go as the character is re-imagined, rebooted, reworked, de-powered/re-powered, and what the creators and editors at DC want to use into the new comic continuities and in other media.
While some like the Spider-Buggy was just to promote a toy or something and was quickly wrecked by Spider-Man because he couldn't drive. Yes I did see all of those which is why trying to say early comics and particularly once the stupid comic ratings board came into play rendered everything harmless. And super hero comics that were considered low grade garbage were the only ones allowed to continue because they were so light and harmless.
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