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Post by burningcherry on Jan 26, 2020 19:42:26 GMT
Poor Reapers, first their plan is rendered unsustainable by QEC, then futile by ODSY.
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Post by melbella on Jan 26, 2020 20:26:49 GMT
And the Shadow Broker would not have had access to Reaper data prior to the Battle of the Citadel:
Why not? The Batarians did. The Illusive Man did. The geth did (and not just the 'heretics').
There's a big difference between, "There is no explanation for this" and "There is no explanation for this that we've been told about" or "There is no explanation for this that I like."
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Post by Iakus on Jan 26, 2020 20:32:44 GMT
And the Shadow Broker would not have had access to Reaper data prior to the Battle of the Citadel:
Why not? The Batarians did. The Illusive Man did. The geth did (and not just the 'heretics').
There's a big difference between, "There is no explanation for this" and "There is no explanation for this that we've been told about" or "There is no explanation for this that I like."
Let me rephrase: The Shadow Broker would not have had access to bits of Sovereign prior to the Battle of the Citadel. And that is the only realistic way anyone would get a good look at how the Reapers could travel so long without a discharge (and given the codex has no explanation for how they can do so, implying that is one of their "breaks the laws of physics" things, it's doubtful anyone could figure it out with those remains anyway)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 21:09:45 GMT
Why not? The Batarians did. The Illusive Man did. The geth did (and not just the 'heretics').
There's a big difference between, "There is no explanation for this" and "There is no explanation for this that we've been told about" or "There is no explanation for this that I like."
Let me rephrase: The Shadow Broker would not have had access to bits of Sovereign prior to the Battle of the Citadel. And that is the only realistic way anyone would get a good look at how the Reapers could travel so long without a discharge (and given the codex has no explanation for how they can do so, implying that is one of their "breaks the laws of physics" things, it's doubtful anyone could figure it out with those remains anyway) You have at least one derelict reaper sitting around in the galaxy for at least the last 37 million years. There are trillions of "people" in the galaxy, among them would be many people who could have reversed engineered the tech even while just thinking they were studying a ship rather than the beings called "Reapers" who were responsible for harvesting entire galaxies of civilizations every 50,000 years.
You keep hanging up on the same point... that it wasn't mentioned prior to ME:A... but that's just because it's a retcon. That doesn't make it an "impossibility." All it shows is that Bioware never originally intended the series to be carried beyond the Old Trilogy. In ME1, they have a working mini-relay sitting on the Citadel that practically bearks the law of the relay network as dscribed in the codex... and we have no explanation for it after centuries of occupation on the Citadel and ample opporuntiy to study it... blah, blah, blah. Bioware made the exact same mistakes all within ME1... yet you won't see it. You have TIM managing to hide Shepard for 2 years while the Alliance thinks he's dead. You have the Asari studying a Prothean beacon for centuries and managing to keep it a secret from everyone else in the galaxy. You have a project on Noveria ressurecting rachni without anyone in the galaxy (including the other companies on Noveria) knowing about it. etc. etc. etc. We're only told in the codex what Bioware wants to tell us and when Bioware wants to tell us.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 26, 2020 22:03:28 GMT
Poor Reapers, first their plan is rendered unsustainable by QEC, then futile by ODSY. Well, it's not like it was a good plan. But how do QECs make it unsustainable?
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 26, 2020 22:11:24 GMT
Besides which, it still doesn't explain the complete lack of reaction from the galaxy as a who at the development of ships that can literally go anywhere without the need for a relay. What sort of reaction should there have been? What's your evidence for that reaction not having occurred? Beyond not having some Codex entries about it, of course. If console patching wasn't such a nightmare, I'd say they should have patched the appropriate entries into ME3 and ME2.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jan 26, 2020 22:46:54 GMT
Let me rephrase: The Shadow Broker would not have had access to bits of Sovereign prior to the Battle of the Citadel. And that is the only realistic way anyone would get a good look at how the Reapers could travel so long without a discharge (and given the codex has no explanation for how they can do so, implying that is one of their "breaks the laws of physics" things, it's doubtful anyone could figure it out with those remains anyway) You have at least one derelict reaper sitting around in the galaxy for at least the last 37 million years. There are trillions of "people" in the galaxy, among them would be many people who could have reversed engineered the tech even while just thinking they were studying a ship rather than the beings called "Reapers" who were responsible for harvesting entire galaxies of civilizations every 50,000 years. You keep hanging up on the same point... that it wasn't mentioned prior to ME:A... but that's just because it's a retcon. That doesn't make it an "impossibility." All it shows is that Bioware never originally intended the series to be carried beyond the Old Trilogy. In ME1, they have a working mini-relay sitting on the Citadel that practically bearks the law of the relay network as dscribed in the codex... and we have no explanation for it after centuries of occupation on the Citadel and ample opporuntiy to study it... blah, blah, blah. Bioware made the exact same mistakes all within ME1... yet you won't see it. You have TIM managing to hide Shepard for 2 years while the Alliance thinks he's dead. You have the Asari studying a Prothean beacon for centuries and managing to keep it a secret from everyone else in the galaxy. You have a project on Noveria ressurecting rachni without anyone in the galaxy (including the other companies on Noveria) knowing about it. etc. etc. etc. We're only told in the codex what Bioware wants to tell us and when Bioware wants to tell us.
I'm not quite sure I understand why anything would even need to be reverse-engineered. It's just a static charge. The easiest way to deal with it is by grounding - but that's (obviously) not the only way. Today's aircraft have static wicks mounted on the wings. The Citadel - along with a bunch of space stations built by various species - have static discharge stations for docked ships, so they obviously already have solutions for bodies in space. Then there's the mass relays... I would suggest that the reason that most MEU spacecraft aren't self-discharging may be analogous to the reasons why most passenger vehicles aren't fitted with 150 gallon gas tanks. It's impractical, inefficient, unnecessary, and too costly to be worthwhile. The "breakthrough" ODSY drive may be little more than some engineer finding a more practical method of incorporating the same technology used by space stations to collect static charge into the design of the engines themselves, thus making them self-discharging. Or maybe they're "grounded" into some superstructure that's part of the ship's framework and is able to direct the charge into the ship's exhaust. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 26, 2020 22:56:33 GMT
Poor Reapers, first their plan is rendered unsustainable by QEC, then futile by ODSY. Well, it's not like it was a good plan. But how do QECs make it unsustainable? It makes early warnings against Reapers and some level of coordination possible, instead of what Vigil stated as the way they operate without losses. If a species then turned into a capital ship manages to destroy one such ship on average, the Reapers sustain more losses than they replenish and slowly die out. If we accept that only one Capital is created per cycle then the plan is even more fragile.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 26, 2020 23:41:02 GMT
Besides which, it still doesn't explain the complete lack of reaction from the galaxy as a who at the development of ships that can literally go anywhere without the need for a relay. What sort of reaction should there have been? What's your evidence for that reaction not having occurred? Beyond not having some Codex entries about it, of course. If console patching wasn't such a nightmare, I'd say they should have patched the appropriate entries into ME3 and ME2. A new wave of colonization. Ships (Like the Normandy) outfitted with such a drive. Plans to escape and hide from the Reapers based on such ships. Seriously, how big would it be if it came out that a car has been designed that got something like 15,000 miles per gallon? Because that's kinda what the ODSY drives are.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 27, 2020 0:20:46 GMT
In the original thread I voted for an ME3 sequel with Shepard. I want my team back, with the exception of Jacob. Jacob should have been executed for incompetence on Lazarus Station along with Wilson the traitor. My preference is to have Shepard return for another game. In another thread I posted that I don't see it happening after it was mentioned that the next DA game won't be out until 2022, maybe later. Which means that it could be 2025,26 or later before the next ME game is released. I do see a possible remaster being released in that time. I like Jacob. At the beginning of ME2, he gives more information about the damage done to Shepard then anyone else gave. He also had Shepard's back in ME3 during the ex-Cerberus scientists mission. I don't care about Ryder. I said in another thread I don't foresee them returning. I paid full price for the game. But that's my problem. The best thing I enjoyed about the game was completing speedruns. That would have been nice. It could have happened. During the suicide run to the beam, it shuts off. What will Shepard do now? I suggest that Shepard takes all squadmates, even the one's from ME2, and head to Ilos to see about using the conduit to get on the Citadel. When they arrive, they see the keystone cops aka Cerberus. They somehow were able to power up the little relay. After dealing with them, Shepard uses the relay. Once on the Citadel they see Cerbeus fighting the uglies with C-Sec caught in the middle. The player gets to see those Citadel defense war assets in action. Shepard encounters Bailey who says he saw a guy in a fancy suit run in that direction. Shepard has the two squadmates stay behind to make sure he/she isn't followed up. The rest of the game plays out the same. Of course the problem with this is Anderson has to be with Shepard to have the touchy-feely scene. Fine. Bring the guy with Shepard when going to Ilos. The fact that Shepard actually dies in most end states dashes any hope of that character going forward, but then triples down on other huge world state options, like entire species going extinct. The Milky Way is a narrative tomb, and "passion" won't change the fact that reconciling all of this would require just flat out ignoring most of the details and picking a single path to run with. Whether or not fans would accept this decision is anyone's guess, but BioWare already got flack for our decisions not mattering. It's just funny to me that people want their decisions to matter even less. The guy does say the details have changed and one more story. Oh yes I did mention that. Bioware put those lines in for a reason. The other thing is during an interview in Nov 2016, Walters was asked can tell me another story about the Shepard. Walters answered saying one day
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 27, 2020 0:45:11 GMT
Poor Reapers, first their plan is rendered unsustainable by QEC, then futile by ODSY. If they ever did a remaster I'd skip MEA (because it was unpopular and would never get remastered) and incorporate some of them in somewhere. I'd love to see Alec in some AI related plot and the Ryder Twins. I could imagine Sara being involved in some matter with Liara. I know I'm the odd one but I really loved Ryder.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 0:55:28 GMT
What sort of reaction should there have been? What's your evidence for that reaction not having occurred? Beyond not having some Codex entries about it, of course. If console patching wasn't such a nightmare, I'd say they should have patched the appropriate entries into ME3 and ME2. A new wave of colonization. Ships (Like the Normandy) outfitted with such a drive. Plans to escape and hide from the Reapers based on such ships. Seriously, how big would it be if it came out that a car has been designed that got something like 15,000 miles per gallon? Because that's kinda what the ODSY drives are. How many Americans still bought into Humvee's and Lincolns decades after far more fuel efficient cars were introduced into the market? Why aren't we all driving around in at least hybrids now?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 27, 2020 1:12:35 GMT
Let me rephrase: The Shadow Broker would not have had access to bits of Sovereign prior to the Battle of the Citadel. And that is the only realistic way anyone would get a good look at how the Reapers could travel so long without a discharge (and given the codex has no explanation for how they can do so, implying that is one of their "breaks the laws of physics" things, it's doubtful anyone could figure it out with those remains anyway) You have at least one derelict reaper sitting around in the galaxy for at least the last 37 million years. There are trillions of "people" in the galaxy, among them would be many people who could have reversed engineered the tech even while just thinking they were studying a ship rather than the beings called "Reapers" who were responsible for harvesting entire galaxies of civilizations every 50,000 years.
You keep hanging up on the same point... that it wasn't mentioned prior to ME:A... but that's just because it's a retcon. That doesn't make it an "impossibility." All it shows is that Bioware never originally intended the series to be carried beyond the Old Trilogy. In ME1, they have a working mini-relay sitting on the Citadel that practically bearks the law of the relay network as dscribed in the codex... and we have no explanation for it after centuries of occupation on the Citadel and ample opporuntiy to study it... blah, blah, blah. Bioware made the exact same mistakes all within ME1... yet you won't see it. You have TIM managing to hide Shepard for 2 years while the Alliance thinks he's dead. You have the Asari studying a Prothean beacon for centuries and managing to keep it a secret from everyone else in the galaxy. You have a project on Noveria ressurecting rachni without anyone in the galaxy (including the other companies on Noveria) knowing about it. etc. etc. etc. We're only told in the codex what Bioware wants to tell us and when Bioware wants to tell us.
The derelict Reaper was decidedly NOT being studied, let alone reverse engineered. Anyone who did would have gone nuts, assuming they didn't just become husks. That's evident from playing ME2.
Not sure I entirely buy into some of this. ODSY doesn't bother me. The mini relay is one-way. We have no idea whether or not people were aware it had special properties but they had no idea of how to access it or find out its origin point. TIM hardly had to hide Shepard. For all intents and purposes, Shep burned up in the atmosphere of Alchera. They scooped up the remains and rebuilt him in a secret facility. It's not like Shep was running around in secret. Once he was mobile, the Alliance almost immediately knew he was alive.
Noveria? There are plenty of black ops things in the world that no one knows about. Combine something like that with loads of money and with an organization that pointedly looks the other way and the rachni are unknown.
Prothean beacon? It was in a place where only asari matriarchs had access to and was there before any of the other races showed up.
I have no problem with the Reapers being able to fly faster than anyone could conceive. They're ancient. I'm sure they spent lots of time perfecting the engines and probably know a ton more about physics that we do. I'd just skip the alleged flaws because they detract from the argument and don't work anyway.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jan 27, 2020 1:16:00 GMT
A new wave of colonization. Ships (Like the Normandy) outfitted with such a drive. Plans to escape and hide from the Reapers based on such ships. Seriously, how big would it be if it came out that a car has been designed that got something like 15,000 miles per gallon? Because that's kinda what the ODSY drives are. How many Americans still bought into Humvee's and Lincolns decades after far more fuel efficient cars were introduced into the market? Why aren't we all driving around in at least hybrids now? Oohhh, I know! We can take every last Civic, Celica, Sonata, and delivery van out of service for a couple of years and "retrofit" all of them into sleeper busses! Using experimental technology developed in secret that we may or may not know about.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 27, 2020 2:33:30 GMT
]Who knows yet... maybe they did steal a relay... the mini-relay from Ilos. It would easily fit onto the Nexus and possibly no one would notice it missing from Ilos since everything shut down there. Why would they take a relay that is only one way? The other thing is the ME3 ending. With high ems, the Citadel is in pieces. Would the relay on the Citadel be ok? What about a low ems destroy ending? The Citadel is not seen. A very good chance that little relay is destroyed. Another thing is the conduit the Initiaitive took. Did it take any damage from the scrouge? If the one on the Citadel can't be rebuilt or repaired, how will the Initiative know?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 27, 2020 4:28:56 GMT
The fact that Shepard actually dies in most end states dashes any hope of that character going forward, but then triples down on other huge world state options, like entire species going extinct. The Milky Way is a narrative tomb, and "passion" won't change the fact that reconciling all of this would require just flat out ignoring most of the details and picking a single path to run with. Whether or not fans would accept this decision is anyone's guess, but BioWare already got flack for our decisions not mattering. It's just funny to me that people want their decisions to matter even less. The guy does say the details have changed and one more story. Oh yes I did mention that. Bioware put those lines in for a reason. The other thing is during an interview in Nov 2016, Walters was asked can tell me another story about the Shepard. Walters answered saying one day The epilogue is invalidated by the extended cut, especially in high EMS. That nonsense spewed by Star Geezer only works when there was a post-war dark age. But then, that would have been hilarious if Geezer was telling Brat about the time Shepard set a krogan on fire, then banged some asari.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 27, 2020 4:35:55 GMT
The guy does say the details have changed and one more story. Oh yes I did mention that. Bioware put those lines in for a reason. The other thing is during an interview in Nov 2016, Walters was asked can tell me another story about the Shepard. Walters answered saying one day The epilogue is invalidated by the extended cut, especially in high EMS. That nonsense spewed by Star Geezer only works when there was a post-war dark age. But then, that would have been hilarious if Geezer was telling Brat about the time Shepard set a krogan on fire, then banged some asari. And yet the guy remains to say those lines. Clearly the cut did not invalidate those lines.
What would be funny is during ME1, the player learns the genophage was used on the asari to prevent them from mating with other species instead of giving the genophage to the krogan.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 27, 2020 4:36:52 GMT
The epilogue is invalidated by the extended cut, especially in high EMS. That nonsense spewed by Star Geezer only works when there was a post-war dark age. But then, that would have been hilarious if Geezer was telling Brat about the time Shepard set a krogan on fire, then banged some asari. And yet the guy remains to say those lines. Clearly the cut did not invalidate those lines.
What would be funny is during ME1, the player learns the genophage was used on the asari to prevent them from mating with other species instead of giving the genophage to the krogan.
I wouldn’t confuse gross oversight with actual intent.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 27, 2020 5:26:06 GMT
What sort of reaction should there have been? What's your evidence for that reaction not having occurred? Beyond not having some Codex entries about it, of course. If console patching wasn't such a nightmare, I'd say they should have patched the appropriate entries into ME3 and ME2. A new wave of colonization. Ships (Like the Normandy) outfitted with such a drive. Plans to escape and hide from the Reapers based on such ships. Seriously, how big would it be if it came out that a car has been designed that got something like 15,000 miles per gallon? Because that's kinda what the ODSY drives are. Depends on which year that car came out. If that had happened two years ago, I wouldn't expect to see headlines about it this week. It wouldn't be news anymore. As for refits, sure, they'd be happening. Probably take as long as it took 20th-century navies to switch from coal to oil. Maybe the SR-2 gets one if they'd d time to finish the refit. Maybe the Kilimanjaro already has one.
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Post by shermos on Jan 27, 2020 6:54:12 GMT
The ODSY drive would make a lot more sense if it was developed after the galaxy had recovered from the Reaper war. There wouldn't need to be any of these mental gymnastics to try and make it fit into the lore; It would just feel like a natural progression.
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 27, 2020 8:58:40 GMT
I've found that a space fantasy setting like Mass Effect, where a single press of the "SPACE MAGIC: ON" button turns a completely irradiated hellhole into a world 100% viable for colonization, works best if you don't think too hard about the details of how things function. BioWare can always pull another "previously unknown Milky Way technology / unknown alien technology / space magic" explanation out of nowhere anyway.
On topic: no, I don't want any simple travel between Andromeda and the Milky Way. MEA already made interstellar travel feel like a quick hop to the nearest little one-mainstreet-town... making space appear almost tight and cramped when it should be incredibly vast and mostly empty. And shouldn't they make travel between clusters trivial first (you know, the kind of journey we used to need relays for) before they get to intergalactic travel?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 10:58:20 GMT
]Who knows yet... maybe they did steal a relay... the mini-relay from Ilos. It would easily fit onto the Nexus and possibly no one would notice it missing from Ilos since everything shut down there. Why would they take a relay that is only one way? The other thing is the ME3 ending. With high ems, the Citadel is in pieces. Would the relay on the Citadel be ok? What about a low ems destroy ending? The Citadel is not seen. A very good chance that little relay is destroyed. Another thing is the conduit the Initiaitive took. Did it take any damage from the scrouge? If the one on the Citadel can't be rebuilt or repaired, how will the Initiative know? Because it's there... and someone is in a hurry to move 100,000 of them to Anddromeda... and they hope that someone in the 600 years they are on the road will be able to turn it into a more normal two-way relay.
Certainly, a possible plot "fly in the ointment" is that the mini-relay is destroyed... so they have to invent their own way back to Andromeda if they decide they want to leave the Milky Way again. Bioware could write it that way if they want to. Maybe with the receiving relay destroyed, they don't land on the Citadel at all, but instead "drift" into some unexplored portion of the Milky Way unable to make contact with either Andromeda or "Council space."... and since the Nomad was the only "vehicle" that would fit into the mini-me relay, they don't even have a cannon and no shuttle to get them off whatever asteroid they land on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 11:05:44 GMT
You have at least one derelict reaper sitting around in the galaxy for at least the last 37 million years. There are trillions of "people" in the galaxy, among them would be many people who could have reversed engineered the tech even while just thinking they were studying a ship rather than the beings called "Reapers" who were responsible for harvesting entire galaxies of civilizations every 50,000 years.
You keep hanging up on the same point... that it wasn't mentioned prior to ME:A... but that's just because it's a retcon. That doesn't make it an "impossibility." All it shows is that Bioware never originally intended the series to be carried beyond the Old Trilogy. In ME1, they have a working mini-relay sitting on the Citadel that practically bearks the law of the relay network as dscribed in the codex... and we have no explanation for it after centuries of occupation on the Citadel and ample opporuntiy to study it... blah, blah, blah. Bioware made the exact same mistakes all within ME1... yet you won't see it. You have TIM managing to hide Shepard for 2 years while the Alliance thinks he's dead. You have the Asari studying a Prothean beacon for centuries and managing to keep it a secret from everyone else in the galaxy. You have a project on Noveria ressurecting rachni without anyone in the galaxy (including the other companies on Noveria) knowing about it. etc. etc. etc. We're only told in the codex what Bioware wants to tell us and when Bioware wants to tell us.
The derelict Reaper was decidedly NOT being studied, let alone reverse engineered. Anyone who did would have gone nuts, assuming they didn't just become husks. That's evident from playing ME2.
Not sure I entirely buy into some of this. ODSY doesn't bother me. The mini relay is one-way. We have no idea whether or not people were aware it had special properties but they had no idea of how to access it or find out its origin point. TIM hardly had to hide Shepard. For all intents and purposes, Shep burned up in the atmosphere of Alchera. They scooped up the remains and rebuilt him in a secret facility. It's not like Shep was running around in secret. Once he was mobile, the Alliance almost immediately knew he was alive.
Noveria? There are plenty of black ops things in the world that no one knows about. Combine something like that with loads of money and with an organization that pointedly looks the other way and the rachni are unknown.
Prothean beacon? It was in a place where only asari matriarchs had access to and was there before any of the other races showed up.
I have no problem with the Reapers being able to fly faster than anyone could conceive. They're ancient. I'm sure they spent lots of time perfecting the engines and probably know a ton more about physics that we do. I'd just skip the alleged flaws because they detract from the argument and don't work anyway.
They don't know what it is they are studying. They just think it's a ship that has, by some means, managed to maintain a mass effect field for 37 million years to keep it in orbit. Sure, they probably became indoctrinated... doesn't mean they didn't figure out the ODSY drive before that happened and sold the drawings to the AI for a tidy profit... which they would never be able to spend because they're some of the husks running around the ship before Shepard comes along and shoots them.
We don't know how long Chandana's team WAS studying the ship and what they found other than what we were told by TIM... and alll he was interested in telling Shepard about was the IFF. He's indoctrinated. Contrary to what Iakus said, it's absolutely a story fact that Sovereign was NOT THE ONLY SOURCE of Reaper pieces to be studied in the galaxy. We're also told outright that the Batarians were studying the Leviathan of Dis.
You don't have to "buy into" it. My point is that it's all made up garbage (including ME1) and people here are selectively "buying into" only the pieces of it they want to make their arguments.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 31, 2020 5:22:23 GMT
Too be fair ME1 is setting up the rules for the universe so your buy in is fairly easy for most of it. Once they establish the rules of the universe buying into things that break it are a harder sell.
My issue with it isn't that it exists but like many other times they break their rules they don't have a explanation and it basically is a just because. There are some fairly obvious questions that would arise from the ODSY drive for fans even the basic why doesn't the MW know about it, and they do absolutely nothing to answer them or even acknowledge that these things might be questions.
I think they made it harder on themselves by going with rich human with a benefactor as opposed to the obvious secret government refuge story line.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 13:12:30 GMT
Too be fair ME1 is setting up the rules for the universe so your buy in is fairly easy for most of it. Once they establish the rules of the universe buying into things that break it are a harder sell. My issue with it isn't that it exists but like many other times they break their rules they don't have a explanation and it basically is a just because. There are some fairly obvious questions that would arise from the ODSY drive for fans even the basic why doesn't the MW know about it, and they do absolutely nothing to answer them or even acknowledge that these things might be questions. I think they made it harder on themselves by going with rich human with a benefactor as opposed to the obvious secret government refuge story line. The benefactor is clearly not necessarily human. When Alex is shown talking with the benefactor on view screen, the species of the benefactor is clearly disguised by morphing through images of several individuals of different species. It's also not absolutely clear that the benefactor is a single rich individual and not an individual serving as the contact to a secret organization - governmental or otherwise.
Re ME1 - ME1 both sets up the "rules" and then breaks them itself. I don't find that easier to buy into. I find it more difficult in that it's not possible to use the "it's a retcon" excuse. The mini-mass relay breaks the "rules" of how relays function and, in the process, actually makes the use of the large and more inefficient relays obsolete.
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