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Post by alanc9 on Jan 31, 2020 14:37:59 GMT
The ODSY drive would make a lot more sense if it was developed after the galaxy had recovered from the Reaper war. There wouldn't need to be any of these mental gymnastics to try and make it fit into the lore; It would just feel like a natural progression. That couldn't have happened. The whole point of having the AI depart before ME3 was to leave how things went unresolved. In any timeline where the fourth ME game is set after the Reaper War and everyone in it knows what happened in the war, the ODSY drive doesn't exist because three's no reason to move the setting to Andromeda.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 31, 2020 15:03:58 GMT
I voted no. Settle for one and accept the consequences. If you're going to be in Andromeda, all the things you loved in the Milky Way are already dead and there's no point going back to them.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 31, 2020 15:09:52 GMT
The ODSY drive would make a lot more sense if it was developed after the galaxy had recovered from the Reaper war. There wouldn't need to be any of these mental gymnastics to try and make it fit into the lore; It would just feel like a natural progression. That couldn't have happened. The whole point of having the AI depart before ME3 was to leave how things went unresolved. In any timeline where the fourth ME game is set after the Reaper War and everyone in it knows what happened in the war, the ODSY drive doesn't exist because three's no reason to move the setting to Andromeda. The point is that the destruction of the Relays and, subsequently, all Reaper tech, would give rise to the need for tech not tied to Mass Effect technology and pronto. It is usually the need that requires the development of technology. The Initiative, especially since no other drive had been invented by any other collective in the past 2 millennia, would have no reason to develop a drive that isn't based on ME technology, but would have most likely opted to make a very refined, super fast eezo core drive. After the events of ME3, the need for an ODSY drive would be immense. Which is why the ODSY drive would make more sense after the events of ME, back in the Milky Way.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 31, 2020 16:55:52 GMT
The ODSY drive would make a lot more sense if it was developed after the galaxy had recovered from the Reaper war. There wouldn't need to be any of these mental gymnastics to try and make it fit into the lore; It would just feel like a natural progression. To be perfectly honest, I don't consider lore to be particularly valuable if the writers can't be bothered to actually integrate it into the story. For example. When ME3 first came out, you had some lore nerds going nuts over the idea that Mass Relays shouldn't be able to allow multiple ships to just flood through a single relay simultaneously. Now, I haven't really dug into the wiki tabs myself to even verify if this is a limitation spelled out explicitly, but I realize that it doesn't matter. It's not in the story. At no point was it established through dialogue or any other information conveyed in-game that multiple ships couldn't just use the same mass-free corridor to zip across space in a relay, so it ultimately doesn't matter. In the case of the ODSY drive, Kallo actively addresses the thing people say the drive shouldn't be able to do, but there's no real reason why it shouldn't other than that we simply don't want it to. Then it hit me: lore means nothing. Things like Mass Effect's wiki page and other subsequent external material is about as meaningful as the plastic the game disc is made out of, because it serves no purpose on the narrative, and isn't even valuable enough to warrant a mention by any characters in the story. So long as it functions within at least certain boundaries set in the universe, I honestly don't see the problem. The reapers and all of their technologies essentially defy a lot of the things we might complain about, yet the entire premise of the story predicates on all races *reverse engineering* that technology.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 31, 2020 17:10:28 GMT
That's how we got to The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker. Now you got ghosts interacting with objects and casting force lightning etc. to the point where being a force ghost has more meaning than being alive. But it so turns you into a giant dick, though.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 31, 2020 17:26:38 GMT
That's how we got to The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker. Now you got ghosts interacting with objects and casting force lightning etc. to the point where being a force ghost has more meaning than being alive. But it so turns you into a giant dick, though. Narrative consistency isn't really the same as adherence to lore. It doesn't matter what a wiki entry or book says. What matters is that the movies retain some kind of connection to other films to keep its own magic system in check, and that it's not used as a catch-all to solve so many problems that it saps away whatever tension a scene is supposed to have. Whether or not the lore states that a person can Peter Pan their way to safety using the Force like Leia does doesn't change the fact that no one's ever done this to save themselves or others in any other Star Wars film, and it's never ever mentioned again either. Shit......HOW DO THEY EVEN GET HER BACK INTO THE SHIP? There's no airlock on the bridge. She just presses her hand on the window and she's teleported to a medical bed. The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker is a cavalcade of narrative fuckery in which character arcs are just thrown about willy-nilly because it's just a spicy salad of nostalgic asset flipping. I don't need lore to tell me that Kylo and Rey's Force teleporting matter trick is stupid and presents a massive host of narrative implications throughout the universe, or that the Emperor returning from the dead deals a huge blow to the entire story of the original trilogy, or that Kylo Ren's "redemption" is a ludicrous misstep best forgotten with a hefty dose of liquor. I think lore is often confused with story, and both are treated as though they're interchangeable. In the case of force ghosts, how much a force ghost can or cannot interact with this isn't so much an issue of lore but how consistently it works with past movies. Why didn't Force Ghost Obi-Wan or Yoda intervene when Luke got his hand cut off? I don't need lore to raise these sorts of questions.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 31, 2020 18:00:48 GMT
how much a force ghost can or cannot interact with this isn't so much an issue of lore but how consistently it works with past movies Isn't ... isn't that part of the lore. Like, TIE Fighters screaming in space is part of the lore, Yoda saying Luke is too old to train as a Jedi is also part of the lore. Force ghosts being unable to interact and intervene in various events is also part of the lore. Obi Wan directly tells Luke he cannot intervene, in Return of the Jedi. Now it is more like well he could, he was just being a dick about it. And in similar fashion, so is Luke. Like, he's not even going to hold the crumbling throne room from crushing Ray and killing her. Nice going, Luke, you fucking dick.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 31, 2020 19:35:21 GMT
how much a force ghost can or cannot interact with this isn't so much an issue of lore but how consistently it works with past movies Isn't ... isn't that part of the lore. Like, TIE Fighters screaming in space is part of the lore, Yoda saying Luke is too old to train as a Jedi is also part of the lore. Force ghosts being unable to interact and intervene in various events is also part of the lore. Obi Wan directly tells Luke he cannot intervene, in Return of the Jedi. Now it is more like well he could, he was just being a dick about it. And in similar fashion, so is Luke. Like, he's not even going to hold the crumbling throne room from crushing Ray and killing her. Nice going, Luke, you fucking dick. I think the lore about TIE fighters screaming in space is a perfect example of how lore is meaningless. TIE fighters scream in space first and foremost because it's a more dramatic and entertaining effect, like how Mass Effect has "auditory emulators" because no one believes that space battles or scenes in general can be dramatic without sound.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 31, 2020 21:05:06 GMT
That couldn't have happened. The whole point of having the AI depart before ME3 was to leave how things went unresolved. In any timeline where the fourth ME game is set after the Reaper War and everyone in it knows what happened in the war, the ODSY drive doesn't exist because three's no reason to move the setting to Andromeda. The point is that the destruction of the Relays and, subsequently, all Reaper tech, would give rise to the need for tech not tied to Mass Effect technology and pronto. It is usually the need that requires the development of technology. The Initiative, especially since no other drive had been invented by any other collective in the past 2 millennia, would have no reason to develop a drive that isn't based on ME technology, but would have most likely opted to make a very refined, super fast eezo core drive. After the events of ME3, the need for an ODSY drive would be immense. Which is why the ODSY drive would make more sense after the events of ME, back in the Milky Way. The ODSY drive doesn't actually solve those problems. It isn't nearly fast enough to substitute for the relay network. And if we're not actually trying to span the whole galaxy in the game, then conventional mass effect drives, which seem to be approximately as good as TNG era warp drives, are good enough. We don't have good data on how much better ODSY drives are over standard drives for long-distance travel; discharge times are so variable that I can't get an average, and there's no data at all on how long fuel scooping takes. But we do know that taking several years to go between Earth and Thessia won't happen in any Mass Effect game.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jan 31, 2020 21:54:02 GMT
Too be fair ME1 is setting up the rules for the universe so your buy in is fairly easy for most of it. Once they establish the rules of the universe buying into things that break it are a harder sell. My issue with it isn't that it exists but like many other times they break their rules they don't have a explanation and it basically is a just because. There are some fairly obvious questions that would arise from the ODSY drive for fans even the basic why doesn't the MW know about it, and they do absolutely nothing to answer them or even acknowledge that these things might be questions. I think they made it harder on themselves by going with rich human with a benefactor as opposed to the obvious secret government refuge story line. The benefactor is clearly not necessarily human. When Alex is shown talking with the benefactor on view screen, the species of the benefactor is clearly disguised by morphing through images of several individuals of different species. It's also not absolutely clear that the benefactor is a single rich individual and not an individual serving as the contact to a secret organization - governmental or otherwise.
Re ME1 - ME1 both sets up the "rules" and then breaks them itself. I don't find that easier to buy into. I find it more difficult in that it's not possible to use the "it's a retcon" excuse. The mini-mass relay breaks the "rules" of how relays function and, in the process, actually makes the use of the large and more inefficient relays obsolete.
I don’t care who the benefactor is. It’s irrelevant to how MEA set up its backstory. This wasn’t a government secret. They were creating a new citadel, giant arcs before ME3 happened. By going that route they created a series of questions that they don’t even try to answer or ask. Me1 broke the rules at the end creating a mystery. A story hook for the next game. They left an opportunity to explain it in me2. They dropped the ball and ignored it in ME2. If you play the games back to back it’s really obvious but with a 3 year gap between making games it skips through the cracks of people’s memories. Mea broke the rules from the getgo and never asked the questions that would spawn from this for fans. That’s harder to swallow by far.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 31, 2020 22:01:27 GMT
The answer is simple: they don’t talk about the Andromeda Initiative in the Shepard Trilogy because those games were made first. This line of argument is basically saying you can’t do anything that isn’t established from the start no matter how long ago that was. What do want them to do, patch the old games adding in a news story about the AI?
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Post by Iakus on Jan 31, 2020 22:08:58 GMT
The point is that the destruction of the Relays and, subsequently, all Reaper tech, would give rise to the need for tech not tied to Mass Effect technology and pronto. It is usually the need that requires the development of technology. The Initiative, especially since no other drive had been invented by any other collective in the past 2 millennia, would have no reason to develop a drive that isn't based on ME technology, but would have most likely opted to make a very refined, super fast eezo core drive. After the events of ME3, the need for an ODSY drive would be immense. Which is why the ODSY drive would make more sense after the events of ME, back in the Milky Way. The ODSY drive doesn't actually solve those problems. It isn't nearly fast enough to substitute for the relay network. And if we're not actually trying to span the whole galaxy in the game, then conventional mass effect drives, which seem to be approximately as good as TNG era warp drives, are good enough. The relay network crisscrosses the galaxy, but unless you're pretty much next door to one of the relays, that world is likely out of reach. Thus why Citadel space is densely settled along the network, and people fight over habitable worlds. So if you want to get to a particular place fast, yeah the relay is the way to go. If you want to go anywhere, but speed isn't a factor, you want an ODSY drive.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 31, 2020 22:24:36 GMT
For example. When ME3 first came out, you had some lore nerds going nuts over the idea that Mass Relays shouldn't be able to allow multiple ships to just flood through a single relay simultaneously. Now, I haven't really dug into the wiki tabs myself to even verify if this is a limitation spelled out explicitly, FWIW, the Codex explicitly addresses this. Those guys were idiots. Not only is it possible to transit a whole fleet at once, it's the preferred method for a trans-relay assault.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 31, 2020 22:31:49 GMT
The ODSY drive doesn't actually solve those problems. It isn't nearly fast enough to substitute for the relay network. And if we're not actually trying to span the whole galaxy in the game, then conventional mass effect drives, which seem to be approximately as good as TNG era warp drives, are good enough. The relay network crisscrosses the galaxy, but unless you're pretty much next door to one of the relays, that world is likely out of reach. Thus why Citadel space is densely settled along the network, and people fight over habitable worlds. So if you want to get to a particular place fast, yeah the relay is the way to go. If you want to go anywhere, but speed isn't a factor, you want an ODSY drive. "Out of reach" in an economic feasibility sense rather that a technical possibility sense, right? Fuel scooping and drive discharge can be done in most systems. I agree that you'd want an ODSY drive, but want isn't the same as need.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 31, 2020 23:21:21 GMT
The benefactor is clearly not necessarily human. When Alex is shown talking with the benefactor on view screen, the species of the benefactor is clearly disguised by morphing through images of several individuals of different species. It's also not absolutely clear that the benefactor is a single rich individual and not an individual serving as the contact to a secret organization - governmental or otherwise.
Re ME1 - ME1 both sets up the "rules" and then breaks them itself. I don't find that easier to buy into. I find it more difficult in that it's not possible to use the "it's a retcon" excuse. The mini-mass relay breaks the "rules" of how relays function and, in the process, actually makes the use of the large and more inefficient relays obsolete.
I don’t care who the benefactor is. It’s irrelevant to how MEA set up its backstory. This wasn’t a government secret. They were creating a new citadel, giant arcs before ME3 happened. By going that route they created a series of questions that they don’t even try to answer or ask. Me1 broke the rules at the end creating a mystery. A story hook for the next game. They left an opportunity to explain it in me2. They dropped the ball and ignored it in ME2. If you play the games back to back it’s really obvious but with a 3 year gap between making games it skips through the cracks of people’s memories. Mea broke the rules from the getgo and never asked the questions that would spawn from this for fans. That’s harder to swallow by far. Honestly, I'm not sure there's really a rule to explicitly break here. That's like if suddenly a stealth bomber appears in the late 1980's and someone cries out that it breaks the rules of what we know about aircraft, when obviously what it does is perfectly feasible; we just didn't know about it. If it was something that literally teleported ships anywhere across all spaces instantaneously like the infinite improbability drive, I guess that would be pretty nuts.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 31, 2020 23:26:17 GMT
The ODSY drive doesn't actually solve those problems. It isn't nearly fast enough to substitute for the relay network. And if we're not actually trying to span the whole galaxy in the game, then conventional mass effect drives, which seem to be approximately as good as TNG era warp drives, are good enough. The relay network crisscrosses the galaxy, but unless you're pretty much next door to one of the relays, that world is likely out of reach. Thus why Citadel space is densely settled along the network, and people fight over habitable worlds. So if you want to get to a particular place fast, yeah the relay is the way to go. If you want to go anywhere, but speed isn't a factor, you want an ODSY drive. To some degree, speed is always going to be a factor. Like, let's say every FTL-capable ship in the MEU was suddenly retrofitted with an ODSY drive. Mass Relays won't be rendered defunct and would still be the primary mode of travel throughout most of the galaxy, because few would likely want to deal with the prospect of leaving an entire generation or 2 or 3 behind making the trip across to wherever.
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 31, 2020 23:52:48 GMT
You remember how FTL works? Accelerate until half of the distance, decelerate over the second half. From the numbers we have, ODSY's acceleration is incredibly small and unsuitable on distances shorter than extragalactic.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 1, 2020 1:08:13 GMT
The relay network crisscrosses the galaxy, but unless you're pretty much next door to one of the relays, that world is likely out of reach. Thus why Citadel space is densely settled along the network, and people fight over habitable worlds. So if you want to get to a particular place fast, yeah the relay is the way to go. If you want to go anywhere, but speed isn't a factor, you want an ODSY drive. To some degree, speed is always going to be a factor. Like, let's say every FTL-capable ship in the MEU was suddenly retrofitted with an ODSY drive. Mass Relays won't be rendered defunct and would still be the primary mode of travel throughout most of the galaxy, because few would likely want to deal with the prospect of leaving an entire generation or 2 or 3 behind making the trip across to wherever. I've got five arks and a Nexus that say otherwise...
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 1, 2020 4:21:45 GMT
To some degree, speed is always going to be a factor. Like, let's say every FTL-capable ship in the MEU was suddenly retrofitted with an ODSY drive. Mass Relays won't be rendered defunct and would still be the primary mode of travel throughout most of the galaxy, because few would likely want to deal with the prospect of leaving an entire generation or 2 or 3 behind making the trip across to wherever. I've got five arks and a Nexus that say otherwise... Sure, but the same wouldn’t be true of a couple Turians trying to get back to Palaven from the Terminus. The initiative’ s a pretty small percentage of the galactic population, most of which would probably still prefer a simple commute vs. a life-altering journey.
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Post by Dukemon on Feb 1, 2020 12:47:50 GMT
The answer is simple: they don’t talk about the Andromeda Initiative in the Shepard Trilogy because those games were made first. This line of argument is basically saying you can’t do anything that isn’t established from the start no matter how long ago that was. What do want them to do, patch the old games adding in a news story about the AI? That would be a first approach, don't you think? For a Definitive Edition Release that the Shepard trilogy get some updates (i.e. Let ME2 and ME look alike ME3) they could add a few new missions and dialouges, on PC a Gamepad support and in ME3 Bioware could take over ideas from Expanded Galaxy Mod, PEOM and HEM
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 1, 2020 15:29:18 GMT
The relay network crisscrosses the galaxy, but unless you're pretty much next door to one of the relays, that world is likely out of reach. Thus why Citadel space is densely settled along the network, and people fight over habitable worlds. So if you want to get to a particular place fast, yeah the relay is the way to go. If you want to go anywhere, but speed isn't a factor, you want an ODSY drive. To some degree, speed is always going to be a factor. Like, let's say every FTL-capable ship in the MEU was suddenly retrofitted with an ODSY drive. Mass Relays won't be rendered defunct and would still be the primary mode of travel throughout most of the galaxy, because few would likely want to deal with the prospect of leaving an entire generation or 2 or 3 behind making the trip across to wherever.
But all the FTL upgrades that show up in ME:A including the ODSY drive would cut travel times in half. Allowing people to reach much further away from the Relays while still traveling at a reasonable rate. And if you add the cryo stasis in then even a semi long journey of a month or more wouldn't matter because the occupants would be in suspended animation.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 1, 2020 16:53:22 GMT
I've got five arks and a Nexus that say otherwise... Sure, but the same wouldn’t be true of a couple Turians trying to get back to Palaven from the Terminus. The initiative’ s a pretty small percentage of the galactic population, most of which would probably still prefer a simple commute vs. a life-altering journey. a small percentage, yeah, but it's also comprised of people willing to give up EVERYTHING to settle in a new place. They knew this was a one-way trip for them. Even if they turned around and went home, everyone they knew before would be gone, and the galaxy will have changed in who knows how many ways. How many more people would there be willing to make a shorter journey? One that would only take a few weeks, months, or perhaps even years to settle a world they theoretically COULD leave, even if it's a pretty long trip? Human history already confirms there have been people with that kind of commitment.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Feb 1, 2020 18:07:01 GMT
One that would only take a few weeks, months Maybe I'm missing something but if the journey would only take weeks or months anyway, what would be the point of an ODSY drive in the first place?
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Feb 1, 2020 18:52:49 GMT
One that would only take a few weeks, months Maybe I'm missing something but if the journey would only take weeks or months anyway, what would be the point of an ODSY drive in the first place? Because ships tend to blow up if they can't discharge their drive cores every couple of says: As positive or negative electric current is passed through an FTL drive core, it acquires a static electrical charge. Drives can be operated an average of 50 hours before they reach charge saturation. This changes proportionally to the magnitude of mass reduction; a heavier or faster ship reaches saturation more quickly.
If the charge is allowed to build, the core will discharge into the hull of a ship. All ungrounded crew members are fried to a crisp, all electronic system are burned out, and metal bulkheads may be melted and fused together.
The safest way to discharge a core is to land on a planet and establish a connection to the ground, like a lightning rod. Larger vessels like dreadnoughts cannot land and must discharge into a planetary magnetic field1.
As the hull discharges, sheets of lightning jump away into the field, creating beautiful auroral displays on the planet. The ship must retract its sensors and weapons while dumping charge to prevent damage, leaving it blind and helpless. Discharging at a moon with a weak magnetic field can take days. Discharging into the powerful field of a gas giant may require less than an hour. Deep space facilities such as the Citadel often have special discharge facilities for visiting ships.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 1, 2020 18:57:11 GMT
To some degree, speed is always going to be a factor. Like, let's say every FTL-capable ship in the MEU was suddenly retrofitted with an ODSY drive. Mass Relays won't be rendered defunct and would still be the primary mode of travel throughout most of the galaxy, because few would likely want to deal with the prospect of leaving an entire generation or 2 or 3 behind making the trip across to wherever.
But all the FTL upgrades that show up in ME:A including the ODSY drive would cut travel times in half. Allowing people to reach much further away from the Relays while still traveling at a reasonable rate. And if you add the cryo stasis in then even a semi long journey of a month or more wouldn't matter because the occupants would be in suspended animation.
Even a span like a month would be a pretty big deal for most people. That wouldn’t really phase out relays if that month could be reduced to just a few hours. First and foremost people will always choose the more convenient path, and the relays are simply more convenient.
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