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Post by Iddy on Feb 1, 2020 14:10:03 GMT
You know, I remember the character creation screen in DAO clearly stating that men and women are equal in Thedas.
But then the writers realized, "Wait, I still want to preach!" and immediately dished that idea.
The Stolen Throne says that Rowan had to work harder than the men to be respected as a soldier. Isabela says it ain't easy being a woman. And Cassandra goes "OMG, the Inquisitor is female!"
It's kinda funny, in retrospect.
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Feb 2, 2020 3:20:30 GMT
And at the same time, the setting's equivalent of the Catholic Church at the apex of its temporal power and influence-the Chantry-is a Matriarchal Priesthood. Why? Because the Messiah-figure/Christ-equivalent is a woman.
It is this institution, this Continent-dominating entity, this matriarchal priesthood, that has shackled the magic users of this world into gilded cages of varying degrees of severity. Who, for centuries either willfully ignored or outright encouraged the excesses and abuse of the mages by those who were sworn to protect and guard (and yes, also guard against should the need arise) them. Who declared Crusades against their racial and religious enemies, from the crushing of the Dales, to the mutual excommunication of the Imperial Chantry (who had dared to elect *gasp* a MAN as Divine), to the Great Holy War against the Qun.
The Knight-Commander of Kirkwall; arguably the most influential and powerful political figure in the City-State? Meredith Stannard, a Woman.
The closest thing the Qunari have to a priesthood? Who raise the children and determine the roles all Qunari will fill in society? Female-only.
The ageless power that pulls strings and nudges history from the swamps of southern Thedas? Flemeth, a Woman.
The ruler of the setting's equivalent of both France and in many respects the Holy Roman Empire? The closest thing to a superpower on mainland Thedas? Celene Valmont, a Woman.
Newest Captain of the Kirkwall City Guard and (from descriptions of others) essentially de-facto ruler post mage-templar chaos until the election of Varric? Aveline Vallen, a Woman.
None of this is a bad thing, it's wonderful. Trying to retcon it to have some gender-based oppression porn? Pass.
Unlike a lot of other games of this type up until recently, I have never felt the need to make a female protagonist. Why? There are already plenty of powerful, varied, and interesting female characters in the World of Thedas, and I relate better to a male protagonist.
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Post by sageoflife on Feb 3, 2020 23:26:43 GMT
Or, as is so often the case, the situation is simply more complicated than the player's introduction to it.
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Post by xerrai on Feb 5, 2020 1:02:25 GMT
I can't account for the rest of topside Thedas, but for Orlais at least I think I can up with a reason for why thier society (sans the Chantry) tilted toward something more patriarchal.
Andraste may have been a prominent figure for Orlesians, but a solid argument can be made that Emperor Drakon was far more important for them. Founded the empire, spread the Chant and all that. Point is the guy was a male figurehead who was prominent enough that it would be unsurprising that any society influenced by him would mirror his ideals. I am not 100% sure what his ideas on women were, but I am going to assume that since he only had one female general in his army, he didn't think of them as equal to men.
In fact, if the Chantry itself is any indication, he may have thought females were spiritually superior in comparison to men. So it could have been that he thought the different sexes were 'better suited' to certain things. Like men were better at combat and politics, but women were better suited toward spirituality and academia.
Mind you, Orlais itself had a female empress barely a few generations later with the coronation of Empress Jeaneve I. But I think it is safe to assume that Drakon was of the opinion that women did not need to be on the battlefield and that Orlais took after that sentiment. They apparently made it illegal for women to become knights that lasted until Storm Age.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 5, 2020 2:37:13 GMT
This is really funny in retrospect.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 5, 2020 5:04:30 GMT
Why, it's almost as if a team of mostly male writers didn't really think through all the far-reaching implications of a society where the dominant religion is matriarchal.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 5, 2020 17:13:41 GMT
Well, they'd already decided that discrimination concerns were going to be outsourced to fantasy races rather than applied to real-world demographics. So I figure they took the opportunity to just stop thinking about this stuff. (Not thinking about this stuff is one of the great advantages of being a straight white male, and we take advantage of it at every possible opportunity.)
For purposes of character creation the text is adequate, since a PC won't face any gender discrimination of note. Wasn't that text blatantly lifted from the NWN character creator?
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 9, 2020 17:37:40 GMT
It looks like all the races and civilizations on Thedas have gender equality, from barbarian bands to reigning empires.
Unless it's the Chantry and Dorian correctly points out the idiocy of both the Orlesian and Imperial Chantry of only allowing one gender to be Divine to distinguish themselves from THOSE people.
The only prevalent discrimination I see in the DA universe is based on race, nationality, class and rarely sexual orientation if you are a member of a ruling Tevinter bloodline. Hell, it looks like even the Qunari have tweaked their rules and are allowing women to be irregular fighters.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 17, 2020 12:35:37 GMT
Eh, the Origins character creation screen states that "Men and women in Ferelden are generally regarded as equals. Both genders are evenly represented in most organizations, noble houses and military forces."
To my mind that means that an individual man and an individual woman are considered mostly equal all other things being being... well, equal, and that there's a more or less even split most of the places you look. Neither of those really check out, but the latter is patently false.
The thing about military forces especially made me blink, because while Thedas features a lot more women warriors than you'd realistically expect it sure as hell still isn't anywhere near 50/50 in any of the army camps or fighting groups or companies we see in any of the games.
It was most likely written to assure the player that starting a female player character won't break anything or feel that implausible, which is more or less true. Although the fact that one of the first things a female warrior Cousland hears is Howe going "Your daughter's a real spitfire! Probably because you had her trained as a warrior. How quaint!" to her father also kind of undermines that idea.
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Post by saandrig on Feb 18, 2020 8:39:37 GMT
Although the fact that one of the first things a female warrior Cousland hears is Howe going "Your daughter's a real spitfire! Probably because you had her trained as a warrior. How quaint!" to her father also kind of undermines that idea. Is there a better way to set your hostility to Howe from 0 to 100 just by peacefully meeting him?
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Post by Blaze on Feb 19, 2020 12:40:15 GMT
equal on paper doesn't mean on practice. men and women are on paper equal now as well in this day and age. but are they really?
even back in origins, there is a dialogue with a woman in denerim market about how chevaliers can do what they want including raping women.
there is no retcon, the fact women has to work harder than men to get to their position, doesn't change the fact there are still plenty of women in high ranking positions. kirkwall knight commander is a woman, guard captain, also woman; cathrian (loghain right hand) is a woman.the right AND left hands of the divine; the empress of orlais; the grand enchanter of the circle of megi.
and for the love of god (or science, if you prefer), can we be spared from the "they shove their philosophy/politics/beliefs down our throats" bit? i am tired of seeing this everywhere. creators having their beliefs reflected in their art in some form or another, big or small, is nothing new and was always around, the only thing that different today is that certain beliefs became more common than others, at least in that medium.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 19, 2020 13:35:25 GMT
equal on paper doesn't mean on practice. men and women are on paper equal now as well in this day and age. but are they really? even back in origins, there is a dialogue with a woman in denerim market about how chevaliers can do what they want including raping women. there is no retcon, the fact women has to work harder than men to get to their position, doesn't change the fact there are still plenty of women in high ranking positions. kirkwall knight commander is a woman, guard captain, also woman; cathrian (loghain right hand) is a woman.the right AND left hands of the divine; the empress of orlais; the grand enchanter of the circle of megi. and for the love of god (or science, if you prefer), can we be spared from the "they shove their philosophy/politics/beliefs down our throats" bit? i am tired of seeing this everywhere. creators having their beliefs reflected in their art in some form or another, big or small, is nothing new and was always around, the only thing that different today is that certain beliefs became more common than others, at least in that medium. The chevalier thing never struck me as a rights issue so much as a circumstantial power imbalance one. The women in question were poor Fereldans, the Chevaliers were heavily armed and armored wealthy Orlesians traveling around in groups and they were both answerable to an Orlesian monarch intent on subjugating his territory. That's not quite the same as women being regarded as property with no right to defend themselves or demand recourse when violated within the culture itself. I agree that Origins doesn't come across as being politically motivated, not least because it was released in goddamn 2009, years before people lost their minds about that sort of thing. The setting's messiah is a Joan of Arc who rose to that status due to accomplishments and under circumstances that are thoroughly developed and plausible within the setting, and everyone worshiping the memory of a truly brave and heroic woman on a daily basis would realistically have a strong impact on women's perceived place in a medieval society. And equally realistically, that impact is still shown to have limits when it comes to the domestic situation of the average citizens, situations of extreme power imbalance and the simple nature of martial professions and lifestyles, because medieval people are still both medieval and people. Women have an easier time being accepted as warriors and leaders due to the stellar example of the Prophet, so those who commit to that tend to go further than we would expect, but that commitment isn't actually any easier on them than it would be otherwise, and so comparatively few women still do. And of course women's status are highest in the religious sphere, since that's where the essential change has taken place and where the influence is coming from. And like in real life the church is still depending on a positive relationship with the governing bodies to exist, so its reach only extends so far. And when all is said and done, the setting is clearly shown not to be short on courageous, honorable, resourceful and competent men either. I always just thought it was cool and interesting worldbuilding, and not at all overdone like what we're coming to expect from the mainstream.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2020 14:59:22 GMT
equal on paper doesn't mean on practice. men and women are on paper equal now as well in this day and age. but are they really? even back in origins, there is a dialogue with a woman in denerim market about how chevaliers can do what they want including raping women. there is no retcon, the fact women has to work harder than men to get to their position, doesn't change the fact there are still plenty of women in high ranking positions. kirkwall knight commander is a woman, guard captain, also woman; cathrian (loghain right hand) is a woman.the right AND left hands of the divine; the empress of orlais; the grand enchanter of the circle of megi. and for the love of god (or science, if you prefer), can we be spared from the "they shove their philosophy/politics/beliefs down our throats" bit? i am tired of seeing this everywhere. creators having their beliefs reflected in their art in some form or another, big or small, is nothing new and was always around, the only thing that different today is that certain beliefs became more common than others, at least in that medium. The chevalier thing never struck me as a rights issue so much as a circumstantial power imbalance one. The women in question were poor Fereldans, the Chevaliers were heavily armed and armored wealthy Orlesians traveling around in groups and they were both answerable to an Orlesian monarch intent on subjugating his territory. That's not quite the same as women being regarded as property with no right to defend themselves or demand recourse when violated within the culture itself. Um, the woman who tells us that isn't Ferelden. She's Orlesian who had to run away to Ferelden after her brother defended her from the Chevalier.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 19, 2020 15:15:35 GMT
Um, the woman who tells us that isn't Ferelden. She's Orlesian who had to run away to Ferelden after her brother defended her from the Chevalier. Huh, I just figured it was a reference to the occupation. I've never actually noticed that dialogue myself. Thank you for the correction. Point still stands though, chevaliers are nobility with big swords and armor. Them abusing peasants and peasant women in particular is a power difference thing, not a "women are chattel" situation.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2020 15:22:56 GMT
Um, the woman who tells us that isn't Ferelden. She's Orlesian who had to run away to Ferelden after her brother defended her from the Chevalier. Huh, I just figured it was a reference to the occupation. I've never actually noticed that dialogue myself. Thank you for the correction. Point still stands though, chevaliers are nobility with big swords and armor. Them abusing peasants and peasant women in particular is a power difference thing, not a "women are chattel" situation. Oh I agree with that overall point. After all there are female Chevaliers. I was just correcting you on her story in particular being them doing it to their own citizens instead of it being an occupation thing. She probably wasn't even alive during that, or a very young child.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 20, 2020 6:29:23 GMT
and for the love of god (or science, if you prefer), can we be spared from the "they shove their philosophy/politics/beliefs down our throats" bit? i am tired of seeing this everywhere. creators having their beliefs reflected in their art in some form or another, big or small, is nothing new and was always around, the only thing that different today is that certain beliefs became more common than others, at least in that medium. So yeah, I will talk about that for as long as it continues to happen. Dragon Age doesn't bother me though, because it exists in a fantasy setting and that limits how far they can go. They can't have a character say s/he voted for Bernie Sanders, like Harley Quinn did in the new movie. Wait? Is that the reason why people don't like that movie? Talk about petty. Anyway I'm in agreement with others, just because they SAY there's equality doesn't mean it's true in practice. Look at the Chantry a disproportionate people in the organization are human women. Men will have to work harder just to be on equal with them and even then, they're better off with the Templars.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Feb 20, 2020 12:22:28 GMT
Wait? Is that the reason why people don't like that movie? Talk about petty. Anyway I'm in agreement with others, just because they SAY there's equality doesn't mean it's true in practice. Look at the Chantry a disproportionate people in the organization are human women. Men will have to work harder just to be on equal with them and even then, they're better off with the Templars. Oh please. You call it 'petty' because you're a leftist, and the idea of people condemning the movie for its politics offends you. But no, the movie just plain sucks. My sister isn't a political person and she thought the story was boring and stupid. Hell, I heard a guy snoring behind me when I was watching it. Yeah, it should be taken with a grain of a salt if a character had said it. But it was the game itself stating it.
Oh, there we are. I sincerely have to ask if political discourse in the US (?) is really down to self styled "conservatives" lashing out at what they perceive as "leftist"? Does it go the other way around as well, since I mostly see "conservatives" whining about stuff like "forced inclusion"? What would have happened if Quinn would have made a stand for Trump instead?
If US politics is really just such a toxic "us vs. them" trench war, I honestly wonder why it did not erupt into mass shootings in the streets already. I doubt that it started with him, but anyway congrats to uncle Donald for whipping it up even more.
To come back to topic, I thought that males cannot advance beyond the rank of "brother" at all within the Chantry. Guys like Roderick or Genitivi might have (had) somewhat more influence than others, but I thought they are still merely "brothers". I never got the Chantry to favour anything like equality, it is just that the bias is inverted compared to real life Christianity.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 20, 2020 14:51:29 GMT
Conservatives complain more because they live in a society where the beliefs they disagree with are the default setting. If it was the other way around, you would hear leftists complaining about Right wing stuff being everywhere. Similarly, a super hero movie where the protagonist is an open Trump supporter would get backlash from them. But honestly, I prefer people fighting each other and disagreeing than getting along because they think the same. Well, the Chantry improves under Leliana, though she seems to focus only on race and forget about the sex inequality. Ha! As if one side needed to be dominant for the other to complain about it. Politics in movies and games can be great, if a knowledgeable or insightful creator really tries to get into the meat of a complicated or contentious issue. The main character unironically piping up about who they're going to vote for in the country of origin's election year just sounds like partisan writers jerking themselves off. I agree that that isn't necessarily a reason to denounce a movie in its entirety, which you also didn't say it was so far as I can see. But nothing else I've heard has made me want to watch it either. I steer clear of the DC movies because of what seems like a uniform lack of imagination and creativity, and this sounds par for the course. Dunno. Looking at modern social workers, psycho-therapists, teachers and nurses, it seems to me that given the chance women would generally make better priests than men, seeing as a preacher's primary function is to provide emotional guidance and support to a community, as well as try to maintain a moral standard. With the Templars to back them up and lend them extra status, as well as be positive and respected examples of masculine authority, I really don't see a big problem with the Chantry's current gender balance. Same with all the other organizations and professions, really. It's obviously an injustice if women lack individual rights compared to men. But is it wrong for a specific field or profession to be dominated by one gender due to what the lifestyle in question entails? Priests being entirely men occured because our religions came together in a time when individual human rights was a very ephemeral thing and women to some extent were reduced to chattel by the power structure and the mechanics of reproduction. Thedasian men obviously haven't been subjected to that, so just calling it a straight inversion of what we've seen in the real world doesn't seem appropriate. That might also just be an interesting thing about Leliana's character. It would make sense for her to have an unusual perspective on genders since she's a beautiful woman who was both taught to indulge her femininity and trained - some would even say brain-washed - to use it to her advantage and never think of it as a anything other than strengths to be exploited and weaknesses to be compensated for. It's entirely possible that how men and women ordinarily treat each other just isn't something she's used to thinking about, since it never really applied to her.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 20, 2020 21:52:49 GMT
Wait? Is that the reason why people don't like that movie? Talk about petty. Anyway I'm in agreement with others, just because they SAY there's equality doesn't mean it's true in practice. Look at the Chantry a disproportionate people in the organization are human women. Men will have to work harder just to be on equal with them and even then, they're better off with the Templars. Oh please. You call it 'petty' because you're a leftist, and the idea of people condemning the movie for its politics offends you. But no, the movie just plain sucks. My sister isn't a political person and she thought the story was boring and stupid. Hell, I heard a guy snoring behind me when I was watching it. Yeah, it should be taken with a grain of a salt if a character had said it. But it was the game itself stating it. Well I think it's just a silly reason to not like a movie if it has politics that you don't agree with.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Feb 20, 2020 21:55:10 GMT
Conservatives complain more because they live in a society where the beliefs they disagree with are the default setting. If it was the other way around, you would hear leftists complaining about Right wing stuff being everywhere. Similarly, a super hero movie where the protagonist is an open Trump supporter would get backlash from them. But honestly, I prefer people fighting each other and disagreeing than getting along because they think the same. Well, the Chantry improves under Leliana, though she seems to focus only on race and forget about the sex inequality. I bet the "leftists" would say it is the other way around, i.e. "conservative" beliefs being default. I considers those categories to be silly anyway; it also depends on local perspective. Someone who could define themselves as "conservative" or "centre-right" by european standards might be just lumped into "dirty communist" by US standards.
I would say it depends on how the debate goes. To my lay impression of US politics as an EU citizen, both "conservative" and "leftists" tend to yell and call each other nuts, with barely any intention to understand each others viewpoints or adress what appears to be as one of the core issues to me - the lack of communication between people from more rural areas and those living in the large (coastal) cities.
I remember something about Leliana opening up priesthood for males if she's romanced in DAO. Don't know if the romanced Warden has to be male for that slide to show though. ... Since you are apparently adressing me with the following, Noxluxe, I'll bite, for now. Dunno. Looking at modern social workers, psycho-therapists, teachers and nurses, it seems to me that given the chance women would generally make better priests than men, seeing as a preacher's primary function is to provide emotional guidance and support to a community, as well as try to maintain a moral standard. With the Templars to back them up and lend them extra status, as well as be positive and respected examples of masculine authority, I really don't see a big problem with the Chantry's current gender balance. I would not call the Templar Order a positive example of any authority at all, given their "might makes right" mindset and how much unchecked power they enjoy. Besides the divine entitlement that all Chantry institutions claim, but that is beside the point. I also dare to say that conflating modern social workers with priests of a dominant and woefully intolerant religion is rather... problematic to say the least. Dominance merely in terms of numbers is one thing. Dominance that leads to discrimination is another. Ban is an entirely different story. Priests in abrahamitic religions and their variations have been predominantly male. For others, it depends. Greco-roman beliefs were pretty male-dominated, yet certain gods had female priests exclusively. Someone else's beliefs were probably entirely matriarchial, with a possible all female priest strata, just to more properly acknowledge variations.
I did not call it a straight inversion. The similarities I'm concerned about in this case lie in the justification for totally excluding either males or females from priesthood. In both cases, a more or less mythical story is used to justify calling one sex/gender "impure" or "sullied forever" and therefore be banned. Interesting take indeed. I would not regard her different way of thinking to be a negative, quite the contrary.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 20, 2020 23:48:24 GMT
I would not call the Templar Order a positive example of any authority at all, given their "might makes right" mindset and how much unchecked power they enjoy. Besides the divine entitlement that all Chantry institutions claim, but that is beside the point. I also dare to say that conflating modern social workers with priests of a dominant and woefully intolerant religion is rather... problematic to say the least. Dominance merely in terms of numbers is one thing. Dominance that leads to discrimination is another. Ban is an entirely different story.
I did not call it a straight inversion. The similarities I'm concerned about in this case lie in the justification for totally excluding either males or females from priesthood. In both cases, a more or less mythical story is used to justify calling one sex/gender "impure" or "sullied forever" and therefore be banned. Interesting take indeed. I would not regard her different way of thinking to be a negative, quite the contrary. I wasn't, in fact, addressing you. And since the gender imbalance in the Chantry and Templar order has nothing whatsoever to do with their various flaws, and the flaws of the Chantry aren't the point of discussion here, I viewed it only and entirely from a perspective of how the balance fits with what each profession is supposed to accomplish on the communal level. ...And specifically said that was what I was doing, to make sure there wasn't any confusion. But hey, can't catch them all, right? I also "dare to say" that you need to look up the definition of "conflation". I pointed out that the modern function of social workers etc. is almost identical to the practical function that priests and priestesses are supposed to fulfill, as an argument for why a priesthood run and staffed by women might work better than one run and staffed by men. What "conflation" exactly are you talking about and how exactly do you think it's "problematic"? We're discussing the gender imbalance in medieval professions, not Google's hiring policy. Your worries about bans and "dominance that leads to discrimination" are maybe a bit too 21st century? Just maybe? And where do you see the Chantry calling men "sullied forever" or "impure"? According to the codex entry men are prohibited from rising above the rank of Brother because they're found "too quick to anger and passion to lead in matters of spirit", a thought I would personally say has some merit to it, with Maferath's jealousy-driven and not-at-all-mythical betrayal of Andraste used as an example. Must it be irrational and offensive biases at play every time men and women are seen or treated differently? And I would regard that view as a negative if she's chosen to be Divine. If Leliana leads the Chantry and has issues relating to ordinary men and women who mostly just act like ordinary men and women then that could become a problem. Not every woman can be a gorgeous dancer and singer who can kill with a knife as easily as breathing and have the skills to insinuate herself and gain influence anywhere like she does.
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Post by Sonya on Feb 22, 2020 11:21:32 GMT
The only inequiality I see in DAU is about males, not females. Now I am talking not about situations like "raped, thugs, bandits, morons" - it is aweful, but usual thing everywhere. I am talking about equiality of males and females in different Institutions. Both are presented in armies/buisiness/organazations.
Only such Institution as the Chantry opresses males; females live there just fine. We saw at least two chantry brothers in the game. They are "brothers". Males can't get some higher rank there, only be a "brother'.
Say, I am a male, bilieve in some Maker or whaterver, have a virtuous heart and want to help other people (maker-chantry-thing is important in the game, it is clear). Only I know in the world I live in I need resources to help people as I want (charity, hospitals for former templars, helping with guidance, advice etc). But I can't do that as the chantry law prevents me from becoming something more than "a brother', thus the only thing is left for me - some talking instead of doing something useful. And I see that the chantry doesn't do many useful things it could.
Do not see where females are inequial. Males suffer here.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 22, 2020 19:13:50 GMT
If there was a possibility to become the Divine in DA:I (even as a dude), I would've definitely taken it. Easily my favorite concept art.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Feb 22, 2020 23:39:51 GMT
If there was a possibility to become the Divine in DA:I (even as a dude), I would've definitely taken it. Easily my favorite concept art. DAI Leliana crying about anything seems very out of character. She didn't even cry over Justinia.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2020 19:45:56 GMT
If there was a possibility to become the Divine in DA:I (even as a dude), I would've definitely taken it. Easily my favorite concept art. DAI Leliana crying about anything seems very out of character. She didn't even cry over Justinia. She probably would've if animating tears and crying was a piece of cake. But concept arts will always be more complex and expressive than the final results.
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