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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 27, 2020 14:20:27 GMT
To be honest, I don't see this game being talked about beyond the controversy within a couple years. With so many other huge games coming out later this year for the current and new consoles, this game will most likely be buried. More likely, in my opinion, is that many reviewers who are presently jumping on the hate train for the clicks will reassess in the future. We'll get those useless, "Were We Too Hard on TLoUII?" and "Retrospective: TLoUII Is Actually a Very Good Game" type of articles. Those always follow these ridiculous, dog pile situations. It's only a matter of time. Edit: Oops. Can't differentiate the spoiler/non-spoiler threads. I can also see some reviewers that gave it perfect scores to also alter their viewpoints on the game and not to the negative, but more knocking a point or two off their score. Of course there will always be people that change how they view things as well for life can alter how a person views content. A person might get married, have a child, a person close to them dies, or any other life altering moment. That might even happen to me for my biggest problem was that I just couldn't connect to the story so the story fell completely flat and didn't make sense for me.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 27, 2020 14:25:50 GMT
Comparing it to The Last Jedi is ironic because the overblown hostility to that film was for similar reasons: fans who had emotionally invested too much into the franchise felt "betrayed" by choices made, especially in regard to particular characters. You would think that they would have learned to temper their emotions and expectations by now, given that, when you take into account the prequels and the expanded universe, Star Wars has produced more crap overall than it has quality products. Holding up TLJ as the worst entry in the franchise is plainly ridiculous. The Prequels were wayyyy better than the sequels and say what you will about Legends (I assume you're talking about that.) but it has produced more memorable content than what's created at Disney. But I do see your point.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 27, 2020 15:30:08 GMT
Critics comparing the game to "Schindler's List" are just as insane as the people frothing at the mouth because they don't like what happened to a character. Comparing it to The Last Jedi is ironic because the overblown hostility to that film was for similar reasons: fans who had emotionally invested too much into the franchise felt "betrayed" by choices made, especially in regard to particular characters.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 27, 2020 15:40:57 GMT
Comparing it to The Last Jedi is ironic because the overblown hostility to that film was for similar reasons: fans who had emotionally invested too much into the franchise felt "betrayed" by choices made, especially in regard to particular characters. You would think that they would have learned to temper their emotions and expectations by now, given that, when you take into account the prequels and the expanded universe, Star Wars has produced more crap overall than it has quality products. Holding up TLJ as the worst entry in the franchise is plainly ridiculous. The Prequels were wayyyy better than the sequels and say what you will about Legends (I assume you're talking about that.) but it has produced more memorable content than what's created at Disney. But I do see your point. The big issue with Disney's sequel films is how derivative their films were of the OT and the Expanded Universe's content, while TLJ it's sole subversive film had to be retconned in its own novelisation, and TRoS due to the inconsistent writing in it's script. Barring AoTC, and the Clone Wars 3d films (TPM is debatable) i can't think of any other films TLJ is objectively superior to but that's not saying much.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 27, 2020 16:14:50 GMT
The big issue with Disney's sequel films is how derivative their films were of the OT and the Expanded Universe's content, while TLJ it's sole subversive film had to be retconned in its own novelisation, and TRoS due to the inconsistent writing in it's script. Barring AoTC, and the Clone Wars 3d films (TPM is debatable) i can't think of any other films TLJ is objectively superior to but that's not saying much. The force awakens is at least well executed derivativity. Still think it could have been a good launchpad but TLJ is just so abominably bad imo and not sure there was ever salvageable after that even if it was less derivative.
Of Disney's films the only one i'd consider interesting is Rogue One.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 27, 2020 16:16:38 GMT
The Prequels were wayyyy better than the sequels and say what you will about Legends (I assume you're talking about that.) but it has produced more memorable content than what's created at Disney. But I do see your point. The big issue with Disney's sequel films is how derivative their films were of the OT and the Expanded Universe's content, while TLJ it's sole subversive film had to be retconned in its own novelisation, and TRoS due to the inconsistent writing in it's script. Barring AoTC, and the Clone Wars 3d films (TPM is debatable) i can't think of any other films TLJ is objectively superior to but that's not saying much. The Rise of Skywalker? At least TLJ had a clear narrative direction, TROS is a mess.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 16:41:51 GMT
Comparing it to The Last Jedi is ironic because the overblown hostility to that film was for similar reasons: fans who had emotionally invested too much into the franchise felt "betrayed" by choices made, especially in regard to particular characters. You would think that they would have learned to temper their emotions and expectations by now, given that, when you take into account the prequels and the expanded universe, Star Wars has produced more crap overall than it has quality products. Holding up TLJ as the worst entry in the franchise is plainly ridiculous. The Prequels were wayyyy better than the sequels and say what you will about Legends (I assume you're talking about that.) but it has produced more memorable content than what's created at Disney. But I do see your point. I was referring to a lot of things. Star Wars has produced a truly ridiculous amount of content, including spin-offs devoted entirely to the continued adventures of the Ewoks. Most of what Star Wars has produced in its extensive history: novels, cartoons, video games, toys, etc etc, has been pretty awful. The quality of the films is entirely a matter of perspective of course, Force Awakens was the first time I ever became even slightly interested in the Star Wars universe, and I've never been a fan of special bloodlines bullshit, so I was quite happy when TLJ seemed to be putting an end to that. Rise of Skywalker killed my burgeoning interest in the universe stone-cold dead, however, and I could bitch about that extensively, but mainly I'm just glad I'm not one of the many people who made Star Wars a large part of my life. There's a reason that type of person is called a "fan"; because their admiration for Property XYZ (and consequently their anger when it does something "wrong") goes beyond mere enjoyment, and crosses over into borderline-religious zeal. Of course, companies are also at fault for this. They actively encourage audiences to develop these toxic parasocial relationships with their IP, because it makes them money.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 27, 2020 16:57:27 GMT
The big issue with Disney's sequel films is how derivative their films were of the OT and the Expanded Universe's content, while TLJ it's sole subversive film had to be retconned in its own novelisation, and TRoS due to the inconsistent writing in it's script. Barring AoTC, and the Clone Wars 3d films (TPM is debatable) i can't think of any other films TLJ is objectively superior to but that's not saying much. The Rise of Skywalker? At least TLJ had a clear narrative direction, TROS is a mess. The Rise of Skywalker's jumbled mess of a plot is a direct result of Rian Johnson not properly building up Palpatine's return (alleged to be planned in advanced) and not leaving JJ with that much material to build from, and work with. The only thing that was clear in Johnson's direction is his disregard for the lore, sensical character behavior or any semblance of consistent messaging and themes.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 27, 2020 17:01:59 GMT
The big issue with Disney's sequel films is how derivative their films were of the OT and the Expanded Universe's content, while TLJ it's sole subversive film had to be retconned in its own novelisation, and TRoS due to the inconsistent writing in it's script. Barring AoTC, and the Clone Wars 3d films (TPM is debatable) i can't think of any other films TLJ is objectively superior to but that's not saying much. The force awakens is at least well executed derivativity. Still think it could have been a good launchpad but TLJ is just so abominably bad imo and not sure there was ever salvageable after that even if it was less derivative.
Of Disney's films the only one i'd consider interesting is Rogue One.
RO is my favorite amongst Disney's SW films too while Solo is a guilty pleasure.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 27, 2020 17:19:08 GMT
Amusing as this is, shall we steer this back to The Last Of Us?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 17:26:51 GMT
The Rise of Skywalker? At least TLJ had a clear narrative direction, TROS is a mess. The Rise of Skywalker's jumbled mess of a plot is a direct result of Rian Johnson not properly building up Palpatine's return (alleged to be planned in advanced) and not leaving JJ with that much material to build from, and work with. The only thing that was clear in Johnson's direction is his disregard for the lore, sensical character behavior or any semblance of consistent messaging and themes. Resurrecting Palpatine was a lazy, stupid, boring idea to begin with, and there's a lot more going on in ROS that cannot reasonably be blamed on Rian, and just generally, if we're blaming directors, I'm inclined to believe the lion's share belongs to the man who directed 2/3 of the films, and also brought us such gems as Mission Impossible 3 and the Star Trek reboots, and not the one who gave us Knives Out. Lol.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 17:53:23 GMT
Amusing as this is, shall we steer this back to The Last Of Us? I like the puzzle-solving, and the combat is sometimes tense in an enjoyable way, but I find the game... exhausting? I'm not particularly emotionally invested in anything that's going on, but I do find it emotionally draining to play, and I've been having to take long breaks between sessions. I'm also, to be honest, not remotely interested in playing as Abby, and I've kind of left off at the part where I have to play her as a child. I'm not like... pro-Joel or anything, I never really had a strong opinion either way about his choices in the previous game. The whole moral question of the game seems to be predicated on the assumption that, if Joel had chosen different, there would be a vaccine for - I dunno, Clicker-ism- already? But it only takes a minute of thinking about to realise that makes no sense to assume. Supposedly there was only one person in the world capable of developing the vaccine (you can find a diary entry from a dead Firefly that says so), and they only had ONE little-girl-brain to work with, so, with my (admittedly minor) understanding of how medical research works, it kind of seems like developing any sort of vaccine was a ridiculous long-shot to begin with, to the point that it almost doesn't matter what Joel did in the larger scheme of things. Personally, I was always more bothered by the fact that every single adult involved in the situation saw fit to hide the truth from Ellie and deny her any agency in the matter. Especially given what she's already been through up to that point. Now some asides: - The superhero trading cards are awesome, and I hope Naughty Dog makes a superhero franchise based on that universe. Or if there'd been some sort of Gwent-style minigame, that would've been awesome (although not very in-keeping with the tone). - I'd sure like to see the people who complain about female characters being too muscular try to climb a rope in the rain or swim with all their clothes on. The stuff Ellie and Abby are doing is like the equivalent of going through boot camp every single day of your life. - I find it funny how there's absolutely no info (so far as I've found) about other parts of the world. It would be hilarious if it turned out everywhere else was fine, and it was just the continental US that was fucked. Lol.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 27, 2020 18:07:10 GMT
The Rise of Skywalker's jumbled mess of a plot is a direct result of Rian Johnson not properly building up Palpatine's return (alleged to be planned in advanced) and not leaving JJ with that much material to build from, and work with. The only thing that was clear in Johnson's direction is his disregard for the lore, sensical character behavior or any semblance of consistent messaging and themes. Resurrecting Palpatine was a lazy, stupid, boring idea to begin with, and there's a lot more going on in ROS that cannot reasonably be blamed on Rian, and just generally, if we're blaming directors, I'm inclined to believe the lion's share belongs to the man who directed 2/3 of the films, and also brought us such gems as Mission Impossible 3 and the Star Trek reboots, and not the one who gave us Knives Out. Lol. Without Palpatine there wouldn't be much of a conflict in TRoS due to Johnson unceremoniously killing Snoke prematurely while not introducing a credible antagonist as a replacement. I saw no problem with JJ beyond his derivativeness in TFA but he opened up many possibilities for the sequel trilogy that were squandered by Rian. Iirc TLJ fell 700,000 million usd short of TFA, set a Hollywood record for second week ticket sales drops, flopped in China and negatively impacted the reception of the Solo film that had the misfortune of being released a few months after. The hilarious part in all this is that JJ was only contracted to direct one film but was brought back at the last moment to direct TRoS by Kathleen Kennedy because of TLJ's reception. Plus i wouldn't use Knives Out as an example of Rian's leet directing talent because JJ's Star Trek 2009, a shit film, was rated the same.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 18:14:44 GMT
Pursuant to my previous post, I googled it, and apparently there are no existing vaccines for fungal infections of any kind, and not much research has been done into the concept, so the premise of TLOU1 may not even be scientifically sound. Lol.
Now I wonder if anyone tried just dousing the Infected in athlete's foot cream or vinegar.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 18:16:27 GMT
Resurrecting Palpatine was a lazy, stupid, boring idea to begin with, and there's a lot more going on in ROS that cannot reasonably be blamed on Rian, and just generally, if we're blaming directors, I'm inclined to believe the lion's share belongs to the man who directed 2/3 of the films, and also brought us such gems as Mission Impossible 3 and the Star Trek reboots, and not the one who gave us Knives Out. Lol. Without Palpatine there wouldn't be much of a conflict in TRoS due to Johnson unceremoniously killing Snoke prematurely while not introducing a credible antagonist as a replacement. I saw no problem with JJ beyond his derivativeness in TFA but he opened up many possibilities for the sequel trilogy that were squandered by Rian. Iirc TLJ fell 700,000 million usd short of TFA, set a Hollywood record for second week ticket sales drops, flopped in China and negatively impacted the reception of the Solo film that had the misfortune of being released a few months after. The hilarious part in all this is that JJ was only contracted to direct one film but was brought back at the last moment to direct TRoS by Kathleen Kennedy because of TLJ's reception. Plus i wouldn't use Knives Out as an example of Rian's leet directing talent because JJ's Star Trek 2009, a shit film, was rated the same. Kylo Ren would be the antagonist? Like he was for the entire trilogy up until that point? And if I were using profits or ratings as a metric to judge the work of either director, you might have had a point. I am not.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 27, 2020 18:41:35 GMT
Without Palpatine there wouldn't be much of a conflict in TRoS due to Johnson unceremoniously killing Snoke prematurely while not introducing a credible antagonist as a replacement. I saw no problem with JJ beyond his derivativeness in TFA but he opened up many possibilities for the sequel trilogy that were squandered by Rian. Iirc TLJ fell 700,000 million usd short of TFA, set a Hollywood record for second week ticket sales drops, flopped in China and negatively impacted the reception of the Solo film that had the misfortune of being released a few months after. The hilarious part in all this is that JJ was only contracted to direct one film but was brought back at the last moment to direct TRoS by Kathleen Kennedy because of TLJ's reception. Plus i wouldn't use Knives Out as an example of Rian's leet directing talent because JJ's Star Trek 2009, a shit film, was rated the same. Kylo Ren would be the antagonist? Like he was for the entire trilogy up until that point? Adam Driver is a good actor but after Kylo's portrayal in TFA he wouldn't be a credible main antagonist. Currently, Kylo's multiple displays of incel like behavior, Rey tapping that ass with no vaseline and his SNL skit have negatively impacted his image as a menacing villain to the point that he's only threatening to soccer moms, teen girls and old people who watch Lifetime. Kylo's character would need some rewrites in TFA since Kathleen Kennedy didn't envision him as the main antagonist.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 19:03:16 GMT
Kylo Ren would be the antagonist? Like he was for the entire trilogy up until that point? Adam Driver is a good actor but after Kylo's portrayal in TFA he wouldn't be a credible main antagonist. Currently, Kylo's multiple displays of incel like behavior, Rey tapping that ass with no vaseline and his SNL skit have negatively impacted his image as a menacing villain to the point that he's only threatening to soccer moms, teen girls and old people who watch Lifetime. Kylo's character would need some rewrites in TFA since Kathleen Kennedy didn't envision him as the main antagonist. I don't know who this lady is, or why I should care, nor do know what you think "incel" behaviour looks like, or what in particular I'm supposed to be equating with anal rape. But whether you find Kylo "credible" as an antagonist is irrelevant. He is the main actor against Rey and the members of the Rebellion in both films, hence, he is the antagonist by default, just as Vader, not the Emperor, was the antagonist in the original trilogy. And if he was never intended to be the final antagonist, then Force Awakens also makes absolutely no damn sense in hindsight, and Rian Johnson can hardly be blamed for that. Disney could've had the whole trilogy scripted out before filming even began, in order to ensure narrative cohesion, and they didn't, so if the story doesn't make any sense now, maybe the person to blame is actually this Kathleen Kennedy person. Angry young men (or narcissistic sociopaths in general) can, in fact, be very scary. You might not be scared of them, but again, also beside the point. One does not have to appear 'threatening' to be a genuine threat. You have very narrow, limited ideas about how antagonists should look or act, which is weird, because one of your big complaints is that the first film was derivative.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jun 27, 2020 19:23:55 GMT
o.o I don't truly see the point in comparing Star Wars to TLOU in truth mostly because well the prior game was an enjoyable if somewhat cartoonish romp through a fungal post apocalypse where as per usual if you overthink anything the universe implodes under its own weight, conversely Star War's original trilogy built up the universe to where additional content and stories could flow from given that A New Hope just ushered in the universe and explored a faint bit but overall left much of it open for further exploration.
Meanwhile even back the original game you are carting around the Mcguffin, something that immediately marks this dynamic more in the vein of what Metal Gear Solid became given that in retroactive hindsight the entire series became about a group of ten people back in the 60s colossally ruining the world for the next half century and becoming intrinsic players on its stage.
Back to the point though my dislike of modern Star Wars and this sequel both stem from a similar direction of the prior game introducing concepts, characters and ideas that the sequel product basically just spat upon to push its new message but apart from that rather...generalized view of it, I don't see much in why and how they'd be compared.
Both fail because they turn their back on the original message, the original cast sure but beyond that? I don't see much connecting the two, little lone enough warrant a discussion to this scale.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 27, 2020 20:14:24 GMT
Now I wonder if anyone tried just dousing the Infected in athlete's foot cream or vinegar. Athletes Foot Cream bomb? That would be a worthwhile workbench build.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 20:19:55 GMT
Now I wonder if anyone tried just dousing the Infected in athlete's foot cream or vinegar. Athletes Foot Cream bomb? That would be a worthwhile workbench build. My question is would it kill infected or CURE them? Imagine if this whole time all you needed to do was soak your Bloaters in vinegar and then leave them out in the sun.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 27, 2020 20:36:43 GMT
Adam Driver is a good actor but after Kylo's portrayal in TFA he wouldn't be a credible main antagonist. Currently, Kylo's multiple displays of incel like behavior, Rey tapping that ass with no vaseline and his SNL skit have negatively impacted his image as a menacing villain to the point that he's only threatening to soccer moms, teen girls and old people who watch Lifetime. Kylo's character would need some rewrites in TFA since Kathleen Kennedy didn't envision him as the main antagonist. I don't know who this lady is, or why I should care, nor do know what you think "incel" behaviour looks like, or what in particular I'm supposed to be equating with anal rape. But whether you find Kylo "credible" as an antagonist is irrelevant. He is the main actor against Rey and the members of the Rebellion in both films, hence, he is the antagonist by default, just as Vader, not the Emperor, was the antagonist in the original trilogy. And if he was never intended to be the final antagonist, then Force Awakens also makes absolutely no damn sense in hindsight, and Rian Johnson can hardly be blamed for that. Disney could've had the whole trilogy scripted out before filming even began, in order to ensure narrative cohesion, and they didn't, so if the story doesn't make any sense now, maybe the person to blame is actually this Kathleen Kennedy person. Angry young men (or narcissistic sociopaths in general) can, in fact, be very scary. You might not be scared of them, but again, also beside the point. One does not have to appear 'threatening' to be a genuine threat. You have very narrow, limited ideas about how antagonists should look or act, which is weird, because one of your big complaints is that the first film was derivative. Kathleen Kennedy is the president of LucasFilm, the head producer of the Sequel Trilogy and was responsible for hiring JJ and Johnson. What's currently being disputed atm is how much oversight the directors were exposed to, and the level of autonomy they were given. About Kylo not being the intended main antagonist, based on JJ's and KK's claims Palpatine was always supposed to return, but Trevorrow TRoS' original director, and writer whose original script didn't feature the plotline, stated that he was never told about it before being fired by Kennedy who allegedly wanted Palpatine to return. Then there's JJ's obsession with nostalgia pandering by having Kylo fill out a similar role to Vader through his early inclusion of Snoke, and the hints at Kylo returning to the lightside. About Kylo's inceldom and intimidation factor, the big isssue was in JJ's initial portrayal of the character and Rian maintaining it. Kylo's temper tantrum being played off as comedic in nature, his defeats by Rey, and Snoke abusing him killed his image as an threatening villain. Kylo would need to be rewritten because his character as is doesn't make an intimidating main villain who makes the viewer question how the protagonists will succeed, despite his heritage and power. Kylo doesn't need to be another Vader but his initial portrayal in TFA and TLJ made it unlikely that he would been the main antagonist. Having Kylo kill Luke would have done wonders for the character despite the fanboy outrage, and cemented him as a genuine threat but the writers being very obvious in their Intent for the character didn't allow it.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 28, 2020 4:24:00 GMT
Pursuant to my previous post, I googled it, and apparently there are no existing vaccines for fungal infections of any kind, and not much research has been done into the concept, so the premise of TLOU1 may not even be scientifically sound. Lol. Now I wonder if anyone tried just dousing the Infected in athlete's foot cream or vinegar. Way too much Disney SW sidetracking for me. Bleh. 😉 They toss around the word vaccine a lot, and do so incorrectly. Innoculation might work better. The actual nature of Ellie's immunity is addressed at the end of the first game when Marlene is explaining the situation to Joel. Ellie isn't immune because of her own genes or good fortune. The fungus mutated and didn't finish its job. She's colonized, and therefore immune to further infection. The idea seems to be that infecting everyone with a non-lethal form of cordyceps is the hope. Things get a little iffy, though. When they take samples from her blood or saliva and introduce it into a host, the infection proceeds normally. They need to get really personal with the fungus in Ellie's brain in order to determine WTH, and they can't do that without killing her. (I also always assumed that Ellie would therefore be infectious via blood and body fluids, based upon Marlene's info. I suspect they just handwaved that in order to give Ellie a romantic relationship.) So, there's definitely no guarantee that a cure could've happened. That was the heart of Joel's argument in that moment, though definitely not the real heart of the issue for him. The Fireflies acting like Abby's dad is the only person in the world who could do this just tells me that he's the only person whom they know of that could maybe do it. I'm sure there are other brilliant minds scattered across the world trying to cure this thing, or rather discover a way to coexist with it. The whole world was definitely affected. The opening scenes of TLoU tell the story via news broadcasts and the like. The new strain of cordyceps spread via food. It swept through the US first, I think, but had already spread everywhere else too quickly for preventative efforts to matter. Over half the world was infected. (I think it was around 60%.) Who knows how many more died in the collapse of civilization? If the state of the species as we've seen it is any indicator, humanity seems to be fading. They either need some real immunity to emerge in the remaining population, or for some more stable form of coexistence to be devised. These isolated, murderous tribes don't seem sustainable. While playing these games, I often wonder if any truly large cities endure. Maybe people are making progress in a well fortified, reasonably reclaimed portion of Beijing, Paris or wherever. Maybe "the last great city" wouldn't have been too likely to arise from a metropolis at all, but you get my point. Who and what are left?
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 28, 2020 17:44:38 GMT
Nevermind how the Fireflies were planning to mass produce a vaccine, my issue with Abby's dad when creating a vaccine is in the Fireflies potentially using it's distribution for political purposes that would lead to further conflict with rival factions.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 28, 2020 19:18:22 GMT
Really I don't get why people try and say what Joel did was some inexcusable sin in the first game.
Yes he killed the Fireflies, but only after they prevented him from seeing Ellie, was planning on harvesting her brain without her consent and was perfectly willing to kill Joel, by drawing guns on him first, when he tried to stop them.
Was it "selfish" of Joel to stop the Fireflies in the end? Maybe, but then I would say they were also incredibly "arrogant" to think that they didn't have to tell Joel or Ellie the ramifications of the procedure or that they would just accept the outcome.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 28, 2020 20:03:16 GMT
Nevermind how the Fireflies were planning to mass produce a vaccine, my issue with Abby's dad when creating a vaccine is in the Fireflies potentially using it's distribution for political purposes that would lead to further conflict with rival factions. That's a definite concern no matter who manages to find a cure. It definitely was on my mind, but wouldn't make me hesitate to find a cure in the first place. Really I don't get why people try and say what Joel did was some inexcusable sin in the first game. Yes he killed the Fireflies, but only after they prevented him from seeing Ellie, was planning on harvesting her brain without her consent and was perfectly willing to kill Joel, by drawing guns on him first, when he tried to stop them. Was it "selfish" of Joel to stop the Fireflies in the end? Maybe, but then I would say they were also incredibly "arrogant" to think that they didn't have to tell Joel or Ellie the ramifications of the procedure or that they would just accept the outcome. Yeah, they acted like assholes. I never really cared for them much, but could at least agree that a cure or treatment is desirable. The Fireflies in Part II are a bit more likeable for me, probably because I get to see some character. I've now seen the families and idealists to place alongside the assholes. That was an improvement of sorts.
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