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Post by Iddy on Feb 27, 2020 18:01:57 GMT
There was plenty of backlash against the Dalish's supposed three mage rule, but what about this?
It's absolutely ridiculous. Is Vivienne seriously saying that the Tal-Vashoth, those who decided they want nothing to do with the Qun, would keep one of its worst practices?
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Post by Buckeldemon on Feb 27, 2020 18:42:41 GMT
When I wrote my post in the other thread, I referred to the scene as seen in this vid:
Vivienne basically just states or claims something without further elaboration - possible to to bring on her "circle is bestest in any ragard" rhetoric, like she also does in other situations (like in banter with Solas). The vid does end then though and I cannot remember if Adaar gets another chance of a retort.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 28, 2020 7:59:59 GMT
When I wrote my post in the other thread, I referred to the scene as seen in this vid: Vivienne basically just states or claims something without further elaboration - possible to to bring on her "circle is bestest in any ragard" rhetoric, like she also does in other situations (like in banter with Solas). The vid does end then though and I cannot remember if Adaar gets another chance of a retort. I don't recall getting a chance at a retort. But then I completely missed her accusation that the Vashoth cut mages tongues out, so maybe I didn't pay enough attention? Or maybe Vivienne didn't make that accusation to Saar'Kata, because... well, the answer's in her name. Obviously she won't believe her people cut mages' tongues out.
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Post by sageoflife on Feb 28, 2020 14:50:45 GMT
Yes, because Vivienne is such an expert on non-Circle magic. /s
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 8:45:26 GMT
Is Vivienne seriously saying that the Tal-Vashoth, those who decided they want nothing to do with the Qun, would keep one of its worst practices? The extremely violent and barbaric Tal-Vashoth who poison schoolchildren? We fought Tal-Vashoth mages in DA2. They were indistinguishable from other saarebas.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Feb 29, 2020 12:00:19 GMT
We fought Tal-Vashoth mages in DA2. They were indistinguishable from other saarebas. I suspect that all saarebas we see in DA2 were part of the Arishok's forces at some point, so they have been aleady mute-ilated before deserting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 18:31:57 GMT
They certainly were part of the Arishok’s forces. But my point is that becoming Tal-Vashoth didn’t suddenly cast off their shackles and make them as free as birds; they still wore the masks and the chains, and their mouths were still sewn shut.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 29, 2020 20:37:10 GMT
Is Vivienne seriously saying that the Tal-Vashoth, those who decided they want nothing to do with the Qun, would keep one of its worst practices? The extremely violent and barbaric Tal-Vashoth who poison schoolchildren? We fought Tal-Vashoth mages in DA2. They were indistinguishable from other saarebas. Could be just a gameplay thing. The devs recycled the character model because it was easier.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Feb 29, 2020 20:45:11 GMT
Well, the usual mage bias might be a point of Qun dogma that those Tal-Vashoth did not contest. Either that or they could not think otherwise due to lifelong brainwashing. Happens with circle mages as well and usually turns into a hotly contested point in "mages vs. templars" debates. "Do some really want stay in prison circles, or do they think that way because they don't know any different?"
Anyway, Vivienne's condescending generalisations simply don't universally apply because mage!Adaar exists and is not shackled.
On another note, I would really like to know how those on/off-switch restrainment devices work.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 29, 2020 21:00:25 GMT
They certainly were part of the Arishok’s forces. But my point is that becoming Tal-Vashoth didn’t suddenly cast off their shackles and make them as free as birds; they still wore the masks and the chains, and their mouths were still sewn shut. Depends. Dragon Age: Redemption had a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas who was a part of the Arishok's forces and he had the various bindings removed. dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Saarebas_(Dragon_Age:_Redemption)
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Post by sageoflife on Feb 29, 2020 21:19:52 GMT
Well, the usual mage bias might be a point of Qun dogma that those Tal-Vashoth did not contest. Either that or they could not think otherwise due to lifelong brainwashing. Happens with circle mages as well and usually turns into a hotly contested point in "mages vs. templars" debates. "Do some really want stay in prison circles, or do they think that way because they don't know any different?" Anyway, Vivienne's condescending generalisations simply don't universally apply because mage!Adaar exists and is not shackled.
On another note, I would really like to know how those on/off-switch restrainment devices work. Additionally, recent defectors wouldn't be representative of more established Vashoth/Tal-Vashoth communities.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 2, 2020 22:05:50 GMT
Well, the usual mage bias might be a point of Qun dogma that those Tal-Vashoth did not contest. Either that or they could not think otherwise due to lifelong brainwashing. Happens with circle mages as well and usually turns into a hotly contested point in "mages vs. templars" debates. "Do some really want stay in prison circles, or do they think that way because they don't know any different?" Anyway, Vivienne's condescending generalisations simply don't universally apply because mage!Adaar exists and is not shackled.
On another note, I would really like to know how those on/off-switch restrainment devices work. Additionally, recent defectors wouldn't be representative of more established Vashoth/Tal-Vashoth communities. Which reminds me, I hate the fact that the Qunari Inquisitor is called (and calls him/herself) Tal-Vashoth even though s/he is only Vashoth.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Mar 2, 2020 22:23:44 GMT
Which reminds me, I hate the fact that the Qunari Inquisitor is called ( and calls him/herself) Tal-Vashoth even though s/he is only Vashoth. Agreed. Sometimes others insist to remain ignorant (for whatever) reason, but Adaar should be allowed (by dialogue writing) to mind their own language - especially with regards to loaded terminology. Just, like any mindful ex-circle mage fundamentally opposed to circles, templars or even just andrastian dogma in general should not call themselves "apostate". Dalish mages for example are Dalish mages, regardless of what (idiot) slur somebody came up with for them. In this regard, I always silently do a facepalm as Josephine brings up the charges against Alexius, with one of them being "Apostasy".
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Mar 3, 2020 2:34:15 GMT
Which reminds me, I hate the fact that the Qunari Inquisitor is called ( and calls him/herself) Tal-Vashoth even though s/he is only Vashoth. Agreed. Sometimes others insist to remain ignorant (for whatever) reason, but Adaar should be allowed (by dialogue writing) to mind their own language - especially with regards to loaded terminology. Just, like any mindful ex-circle mage fundamentally opposed to circles, templars or even just andrastian dogma in general should not call themselves "apostate". Why not? Couldn't a mage who never liked the Circles, thinks the mage rebellion should have started a while ago, and never intends to go back to them no matter how the war ends use the term proudly?I mean, that's a silly charge to bring no matter what class Inky is. The definition of the word "apostate" in this setting revolves around the Circles, and unless we choose to see the Mortalitasi and whichever mages answer to Vivienne as the Circle system, that system is just gone. Leiliana even says during WEaWH that every mage is technically an apostate now, so even if you believe it should be a crime, why bother trying someone for it?
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Post by sageoflife on Mar 3, 2020 4:01:42 GMT
Adaar does point out that the distinction between Vashoth/Tal-Vashoth is one that really doesn't matter outside of their own communities or Qunari territories. Everyone else just sees a giant with horns. Even Tallis had to keep reminding Hawke of the difference.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 3, 2020 11:40:50 GMT
Adaar does point out that the distinction between Vashoth/Tal-Vashoth is one that really doesn't matter outside of their own communities or Qunari territories. When?
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Post by sageoflife on Mar 3, 2020 15:53:15 GMT
Adaar does point out that the distinction between Vashoth/Tal-Vashoth is one that really doesn't matter outside of their own communities or Qunari territories. When? When talking to Bull.
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Post by cyberpunker on Mar 19, 2020 16:58:42 GMT
When I wrote my post in the other thread, I referred to the scene as seen in this vid: Vivienne basically just states or claims something without further elaboration - possible to to bring on her "circle is bestest in any ragard" rhetoric, like she also does in other situations (like in banter with Solas). The vid does end then though and I cannot remember if Adaar gets another chance of a retort. I take her words as Canon because that's the most information the DA universe gives us. Also, Tal-Vashoth by default means they rebelled against the Qun. So any mages by default would have already had their mouths sewn shut and maybe tongue cut off, back in their Qunari days. DA2 Tal-Vashoth mages also were chained and had their mouths sewn shut. Vashoth on the other hand probably vary in their practices.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 19, 2020 17:36:30 GMT
Adaar does point out that the distinction between Vashoth/Tal-Vashoth is one that really doesn't matter outside of their own communities or Qunari territories. Everyone else just sees a giant with horns. Even Tallis had to keep reminding Hawke of the difference. To use a real-world example of confusing nomenclature, take someone from Northern Ireland.
Even though they might refer to themselves, and be referred to, as "Irish", they might also technically be referred to as "British" since NI is part of the UK. Whereas someone from the Republic of Ireland would solely be considered Irish.
That doesn't mean people from both nations aren't still Irish, but there's an obvious distinction between the two and you would not want to offend someone from the RoI by ever accidentally referring to them as being "British".
That said, most of the world would simply view someone from Ireland as "Irish" without drawing any distinction between what part of Ireland they hail from or even knowing that there is a distinction to be made, similar to how most people in Thedas are unaware of the difference between Qunari, Tal-Vashoth and Vashoth.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 19, 2020 17:38:37 GMT
Adaar does point out that the distinction between Vashoth/Tal-Vashoth is one that really doesn't matter outside of their own communities or Qunari territories. Everyone else just sees a giant with horns. Even Tallis had to keep reminding Hawke of the difference. To use a real-world example of confusing nomenclature, take someone from Northern Ireland.
Even though they might refer to themselves, and be referred to, as "Irish", they might also technically be referred to as "British" since NI is part of the UK. Whereas someone from the Republic of Ireland would solely be considered Irish.
That doesn't mean people from both nations aren't still Irish, but there's an obvious distinction between the two and you would not want to offend someone from the RoI by ever accidentally referring to them as being "British".
That said, most of the world would simply view someone from Ireland as "Irish" without drawing any distinction between what part of Ireland they hail from or even knowing that there is a distinction to be made, similar to how most people in Thedas are unaware of the difference between Qunari, Tal-Vashoth and Vashoth.
Meaning Vivienne might not be the best source on this?
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Post by Sifr on Mar 19, 2020 18:22:37 GMT
Meaning Vivienne might not be the best source on this? Vivienne isn't even the best source on Vivienne.
Do we even know for certain that Vivienne is her name, as wouldn't it be totally in keeping with her social climber nature to have merely adopted a more Orlesian-sounding name so she could more easily make it within the Orlesian court? Of course, it does sound somewhat prejudicial to suggest she had to have originally had a Rivaini-sounding name simply because her parents came from there. But then again, she wouldn't be the first person in the franchise to have adopted an alias as their given name (Bull, Isabela, Anders) as a means to reinvent themselves (as a mercenary, pirate, rebel mage).
We know so precious little about Vivienne's background beyond what she tells us and obviously she's not exactly the most reliable source. Banter between Sera and Vivienne even remarks on Sera being unable to find any dirt on her, because Vivienne has made it all-but-impossible for people to pry into her past and none of the servants are willing to risk her wrath to say anything gossip-worthy.
This is why I'm torn on her character. I utterly loathe her as a person, but yet I love her being as impossible enigma that refuses to yield any of her secrets to us, making it endlessly fun to speculate about everything she does, her motives and who exactly is the person under the funny hat all that pomp and circumstance?!
But I'm veering completely off-topic.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 17, 2020 11:32:11 GMT
vivienne doesn't know what she is talking about. and it's honestly frustrating that we are unable to counter argument her she so she can "win" the argument. sure, some tal-vashoth are afraid of mages and maybe let fear rule them, but it can't be the majority, give me a break.
the whole nonsense about lavellen clan being an exception for not throwing their young away for being mages is just annoying bullshit. minaeve's clan is the exception, the dalish take care of their young and their mages. if there is no room they transfer the mage to a different clan.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 21, 2020 13:00:44 GMT
We fought Tal-Vashoth mages in DA2. They were indistinguishable from other saarebas. I suspect that all saarebas we see in DA2 were part of the Arishok's forces at some point, so they have been aleady mute-ilated before deserting. Yeah moer than likely though there ae rthe Qunari in th eMark of th eAssassin DLC bu tI don' tthink th ywere any different given they were former Ben Hasrath agents
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 21, 2020 13:51:00 GMT
Even if it's true, it's a pitiful argument. How other groups behave isn't particularly relevant to how mages are treated in the Circle.
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Post by dayze on Apr 16, 2021 0:40:07 GMT
Meaning Vivienne might not be the best source on this? Vivienne isn't even the best source on Vivienne.
Do we even know for certain that Vivienne is her name, as wouldn't it be totally in keeping with her social climber nature to have merely adopted a more Orlesian-sounding name so she could more easily make it within the Orlesian court? Of course, it does sound somewhat prejudicial to suggest she had to have originally had a Rivaini-sounding name simply because her parents came from there. But then again, she wouldn't be the first person in the franchise to have adopted an alias as their given name (Bull, Isabela, Anders) as a means to reinvent themselves (as a mercenary, pirate, rebel mage).
We know so precious little about Vivienne's background beyond what she tells us and obviously she's not exactly the most reliable source. Banter between Sera and Vivienne even remarks on Sera being unable to find any dirt on her, because Vivienne has made it all-but-impossible for people to pry into her past and none of the servants are willing to risk her wrath to say anything gossip-worthy.
This is why I'm torn on her character. I utterly loathe her as a person, but yet I love her being as impossible enigma that refuses to yield any of her secrets to us, making it endlessly fun to speculate about everything she does, her motives and who exactly is the person under the funny hat all that pomp and circumstance?!
But I'm veering completely off-topic. Huh, so really we know almost nothing about Vivienne she could be some random blood mage using her abilities, drugs and who knows what else to manipulate people around her to create a new life. For all we know she owned a book store and was a random civilian three weeks before we met her. She could be full on blackwall'ing us.
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