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Post by xerrai on Apr 16, 2021 22:49:36 GMT
Vivienne isn't even the best source on Vivienne.
Do we even know for certain that Vivienne is her name, as wouldn't it be totally in keeping with her social climber nature to have merely adopted a more Orlesian-sounding name so she could more easily make it within the Orlesian court? [...] Huh, so really we know almost nothing about Vivienne she could be some random blood mage using her abilities, drugs and who knows what else to manipulate people around her to create a new life. For all we know she owned a book store and was a random civilian three weeks before we met her. She could be full on blackwall'ing us. I know this conversation is about how Viv isn't trustworthy as a source, but I think we can trust her on a couple of things. Namely, things that she hates. She speaks very passionately about Morrigan, for instance, and I don't think anyone would dispute that claim. After all, why wouldn't she hate the witch the usurped her position as the court mage with nothing more than her mystique (and probs her knowledge on eluvians but Viv doesn't know that)? Similarly, Vivienne hates blood magic. Why? Because she views it as a "tool for the weak". And we all know how much Vivienne hates weakness. She equates strength--real strength--as having an indomitable will and peerless discipline. With blood magic being constantly noted to be the magic of choice for the desperate, as well as eroding the wills of its practitioners to be susceptible to demons (something we know Viv fears), I think we can reasonably assume that Viv will always reject blood magic. She is one of the circle's more conservative mages, after all. Besides, odds are good she was investigated of being a maleficar at some point in her early career. While it was most likely just rumors, WoT vol 2. (written by an in-world scholar) reveals that several nobles suspected Viv of blood magic when Duke Ghislain took her as his mistress and she began acquiring power. Even if it was Orlais, I don't see the Templar Order simply ignoring those claims forever. Especially for a mage who had no blood ties to the nobility. So odds are good they investigated her at some point and presumably found nothing of substance. If she's going to manipulate anyone, she's going to do it the old fashioned way: bribes, extortion, lies, and threats of violence. The tools of The Great Game.
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Post by sageoflife on Apr 17, 2021 0:14:58 GMT
Huh, so really we know almost nothing about Vivienne she could be some random blood mage using her abilities, drugs and who knows what else to manipulate people around her to create a new life. For all we know she owned a book store and was a random civilian three weeks before we met her. She could be full on blackwall'ing us. I know this conversation is about how Viv isn't trustworthy as a source, but I think we can trust her on a couple of things. Namely, things that she hates. She speaks very passionately about Morrigan, for instance, and I don't think anyone would dispute that claim. After all, why wouldn't she hate the witch the usurped her position as the court mage with nothing more than her mystique (and probs her knowledge on eluvians but Viv doesn't know that)? Similarly, Vivienne hates blood magic. Why? Because she views it as a "tool for the weak". And we all know how much Vivienne hates weakness. She equates strength--real strength--as having an indomitable will and peerless discipline. With blood magic being constantly noted to be the magic of choice for the desperate, as well as eroding the wills of its practitioners to be susceptible to demons (something we know Viv fears), I think we can reasonably assume that Viv will always reject blood magic. She is one of the circle's more conservative mages, after all. Besides, odds are good she was investigated of being a maleficar at some point in her early career. While it was most likely just rumors, WoT vol 2. (written by an in-world scholar) reveals that several nobles suspected Viv of blood magic when Duke Ghislain took her as his mistress and she began acquiring power. Even if it was Orlais, I don't see the Templar Order simply ignoring those claims forever. Especially for a mage who had no blood ties to the nobility. So odds are good they investigated her at some point and presumably found nothing of substance. If she's going to manipulate anyone, she's going to do it the old fashioned way: bribes, extortion, lies, and threats of violence. The tools of The Great Game. Don't forget sex. That's pretty much the only reason she got any of those opportunities in the first place.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 17, 2021 18:51:00 GMT
For all we know she owned a book store and was a random civilian three weeks before we met her. Not likely since there are other people who know who and what she was 3 weeks before we met her. If she's going to manipulate anyone, she's going to do it the old fashioned way: bribes, extortion, lies, and threats of violence. The tools of The Great Game. Which to my mind are little different to what a blood mage does except the Great Game is openly acknowledged and admired, whilst up in Tevinter is done behind closed doors, although it is still pretty much an open secret. It has always astonished me how Vivienne was allowed to get away with using magic openly in the Orlesian Court society. When she was initially being attacked by bards, she sent most of them back to their employers as blocks of ice and persuaded the rest to work for her instead. When we visit her at her party, she freezes that noble in front of her guests. Admittedly by then there are no Templars around to take issue with her but it does seem to fly in the face of what should be deemed acceptable. Still, it always baffled me how Vivienne could ever be elected Divine in view of the prohibition against mages in positions of power in the south. It's absolutely ridiculous. Is Vivienne seriously saying that the Tal-Vashoth, those who decided they want nothing to do with the Qun, would keep one of its worst practices? Reviving your original post Iddy, which I must have missed before, you rightly make the comparison between what Vivienne asserts about the Dalish and what she says about the Vashoth. In the latter instance, it probably is a case of Vivienne not properly understanding the difference between Tal-Vashoth and Vashoth. The former probably are still influenced by Qunari way of thinking about mages but the latter cannot be the same or mage Adaar would not exist. Unlike the Dalish, where Vivienne is likely going by what Minaeve has said, I cannot think of an example of a "kossith" mage in the Circles, nor do we meet with any in the game, so her assertion is probably largely based on hearsay. After all, mage Adaar says they were taught by a Tal-Vashoth Saarebas. Now it must be difficult to teach someone with you mouth sewn shut, so clearly that Tal-Vashoth has escaped Qunari custom and either Adaar's parents or someone else from their community must have recommended sending Adaar to them to be trained, again without having their mouth sewn shut first. Of course, it is possible this was another instance of the writers wanting to push the Circle agenda by making all other alternative cultures seem barbaric in comparison. I have to admit, I wasn't aware of this being said about the Vashoth but it does make me feel better about the stupid Dalish 3-mage rule which I thought was simply a prejudice by the writers against the Dalish but clearly the Vashoth fair no better.
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Post by xerrai on Apr 18, 2021 5:08:29 GMT
For all we know she owned a book store and was a random civilian three weeks before we met her. Not likely since there are other people who know who and what she was 3 weeks before we met her. If she's going to manipulate anyone, she's going to do it the old fashioned way: bribes, extortion, lies, and threats of violence. The tools of The Great Game. Which to my mind are little different to what a blood mage does except the Great Game is openly acknowledged and admired, whilst up in Tevinter is done behind closed doors, although it is still pretty much an open secret. It has always astonished me how Vivienne was allowed to get away with using magic openly in the Orlesian Court society. When she was initially being attacked by bards, she sent most of them back to their employers as blocks of ice and persuaded the rest to work for her instead. When we visit her at her party, she freezes that noble in front of her guests. Admittedly by then there are no Templars around to take issue with her but it does seem to fly in the face of what should be deemed acceptable. Still, it always baffled me how Vivienne could ever be elected Divine in view of the prohibition against mages in positions of power in the south. I always thought a large part of it was because she was a Knight Enchanter, a mage that receives "special dispensation from the Chantry to serve in battle". While we can reasonably assume certain mages get a little leeway with using magic for, say, self-defense or entertainment purposes, becoming a Knight Enchanter is probably one of the few ways a mage can get permission to use magic more casually. It may even be what Viv was referring to in her dialogue with Iron Bull. Iron Bull: I thought mages in Orlais didn't fight. You're more than capable with combat magic. Vivienne: Mages in Orlais do not fight without permission, my dear. Some are better at gaining permission than others. Although knowing Orlesian and Chantry politics, it is likely her magic has to be used under the pretense of "maintaining order" or some such. Notice in the majority of instances how Vivienne is the reactor of the conflicts rather than the instigator. Every one of her enemies either tried to assassinate her or was attempting to draw their weapon (as was the case for the noble who insulted the Inquisitor at her introduction quest). She is almost like a mage chevalier in a way; acquiring a prestigious combat rank so she can act without a lot of legal reproach.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 18, 2021 6:20:31 GMT
Vivienne's hardly alone in being a mage given special privileges from earning them. After all Wilhelm was allowed to live peacefully in a village thanks to his service for Ferelden when Maric made him a court adviser.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 18, 2021 7:16:28 GMT
After all Wilhelm was allowed to live peacefully in a village thanks to his service for Ferelden when Maric made him a court adviser. It is slightly different in that he was given dispensation to retire from active service outside the Circle. He may have used his magic from time to time to actually protect the villagers but apart from his experiments with Shale he doesn't seem to have use his magic much outside of his own home. Still, you are correct that he had earned the privilege of living outside the Circle without constant Templar supervision. Vivienne: Mages in Orlais do not fight without permission, my dear. Some are better at gaining permission than others. It would seem I do miss out on a lot of conversations through not having companions in the same party together. Clearly you are correct about Vivienne and she knew the right way to go about getting permission, which in the first instance clearly had to do with being the mistress of a noble. It is one of the things that I have always emphasised; how different the experience of the Circles is for those of noble background or with noble connections and those from a commoner background. The latter find it far harder, although not impossible, but usually such freedoms come after many years towing the line, whereas Vivienne was still a young mage when she first caught the eye of Bastien and from then on enjoyed a lifestyle very different from the majority of commoner Circle mages. Once caught up in the Grand Game it is hardly surprising that she honed her skills at offensive magic in order to survive the machinations of the Imperial Court.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 18, 2021 7:19:22 GMT
After all Wilhelm was allowed to live peacefully in a village thanks to his service for Ferelden when Maric made him a court adviser. It is slightly different in that he was given dispensation to retire from active service outside the Circle. He may have used his magic from time to time to actually protect the villagers but apart from his experiments with Shale he doesn't seem to have use his magic much outside of his own home. Still, you are correct that he had earned the privilege of living outside the Circle without constant Templar supervision. All things considered he probably shouldn’t have been allowed without supervision, since he summoned demons in his basement to experiment on.
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Post by xerrai on Apr 18, 2021 7:23:33 GMT
Vivienne's hardly alone in being a mage given special privileges from earning them. After all Wilhelm was allowed to live peacefully in a village thanks to his service for Ferelden when Maric made him a court adviser. True, but it is usually under the premise that they are using their magic for a specific purpose. Like study, entertainment, or charging glowstone pathways. Using magic for combat on the other hand is something that the Circle is understandably more strict about save for when there is a blight or an exalted march. Although there are exceptions, mages are usually only allowed to fight darkspawn or beasts. To fight humans, elves, or the like requires permission the Circle simply isn't interested in giving all that often because of how they prefer to stay neutral in political affairs. That's why Vivienne stands out. Openly engaging in politics and allowed to use offensive magic at seemingly her own discretion? This isn't a Lienne de Monstsimmard situation either where she is more or less acting as noble's bodyguard, but instead as an independent operative who is playing the Great Game. Other Knight Enchanters by comparison have to be in direct service to the Chantry as guards or special operatives to keep their permissions--and the Chantry usually deals with maleficar, heretics, and bandits. People who are usually outside the political scope. Really its less that she is able to use offensive magic and more about who she is able to use it on.
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