inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Mar 2, 2020 10:34:50 GMT
is it possible for qunari '' men '' be assigned the role of tamassran? If it just is the best role for him, regardless of his birth gender?
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Mar 2, 2020 11:32:28 GMT
Yes, but then he will be considered a woman whether he likes it or not.
Honestly, this was the dumbest way to make the Qun more woke. Now the Qunari can be assigned a "gender" against their will, which is incompatible with the concept of "gender identity". A trans female Qunari whose skillset is more suitable to be a soldier will never be called a woman in Par Vollen.
I have no problem with that since I don't believe in the whole concept anyway, but I have to point out PW shot himself in the foot here.
|
|
inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Mar 2, 2020 13:42:46 GMT
I don't know why people were led to think that this detail was meant to make the Qun appear more "woke" (I generally hate that term by the way; is it ever used in a non-loaded manner?). To me, the Qun is still sexist AF. It does not care about personal identity, but utility. If someone is inclined to be a soldier for example, they are "male", period.
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Mar 2, 2020 14:34:41 GMT
I don't know why people were led to think that this detail was meant to make the Qun appear more "woke" (I generally hate that term by the way; is it ever used in a non-loaded manner?). To me, the Qun is still sexist AF. It does not care about personal identity, but utility. If someone is inclined to be a soldier for example, they are "male", period. Because Patrick Weekes himself said that Aqun Athlok was a soft retcon meant to make the story more inclusive. Only that... he failed. The Qun is no more trans friendly than before.
|
|
melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,901 Likes: 24,177
inherit
214
0
Apr 20, 2024 14:34:07 GMT
24,177
melbella
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
7,901
August 2016
melbella
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
melbella
2186
5778
|
Post by melbella on Mar 4, 2020 2:18:21 GMT
Yes, make the story/game more inclusive. Not the Qun. They aren't the same thing.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,165
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,820
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 4, 2020 3:13:42 GMT
I don't know why people were led to think that this detail was meant to make the Qun appear more "woke" Because people are paranoid about wokeness?
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Mar 4, 2020 11:44:51 GMT
Yes, make the story/game more inclusive. Not the Qun. They aren't the same thing. No, it was said in the context of the Qun's recent changes. I'm talking about Patrick Weekes' word, not what you think is being done.
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Mar 4, 2020 11:48:06 GMT
I don't know why people were led to think that this detail was meant to make the Qun appear more "woke" Because people are paranoid about wokeness? It is shoved in our faces from every direction whether it is TV series, movies, product commercials, music, universities' workshops and lectures. But yeah man, people must be imagining things.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,165
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,820
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 4, 2020 19:40:16 GMT
*shrugs* I suppose so, the same way integration was being shoved in people's faces back in 1966. Or Christianity has been shoved in people's faces since forever. Stuff gets shoved in faces all the time, and always will.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11387
0
Apr 20, 2024 15:08:45 GMT
Deleted
0
Apr 20, 2024 15:08:45 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 20:06:29 GMT
I don't know why people were led to think that this detail was meant to make the Qun appear more "woke" (I generally hate that term by the way; is it ever used in a non-loaded manner?). To me, the Qun is still sexist AF. It does not care about personal identity, but utility. If someone is inclined to be a soldier for example, they are "male", period. Because Patrick Weekes himself said that Aqun Athlok was a soft retcon meant to make the story more inclusive. Only that... he failed. The Qun is no more trans friendly than before. When? I don't recall him making that statement.
|
|
melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,901 Likes: 24,177
inherit
214
0
Apr 20, 2024 14:34:07 GMT
24,177
melbella
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
7,901
August 2016
melbella
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
melbella
2186
5778
|
Post by melbella on Mar 5, 2020 1:35:46 GMT
*shrugs* I suppose so, the same way integration was being shoved in people's faces back in 1966. Or Christianity has been shoved in people's faces since forever. Stuff gets shoved in faces all the time, and always will.
Damn those inclusionists! How dare they recognize the existence of people who are different than the majority......
I thought the whole dialogue with Krem during the Chargers bash was out of nowhere and made no sense to me first time playing. I couldn't even understand why the options that popped up were options since I had no idea he was supposed to be a trans character. Krem was just Krem. I'm not sure why I was even supposed to think that, so much so that the first thing to ask in a casual setting is, "Why do you pass as a man?" Assuming you did recognize his trans-ness, why would you even ask that of someone you barely know?
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,165
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,820
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 5, 2020 2:48:05 GMT
And yet the complaints about that scene were often that the options presented to the PC weren't douchebaggy enough.
|
|
inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Mar 5, 2020 6:51:27 GMT
I guess it's too much to ask for a discussion about '' gender '' in the Qun without lashing out against '' inclusivity '' or whatever.
Now, if men can be tamassran and then perceived as women, I wonder how the vast majority of tamassran being women and having female bodies affects those individuals and how they perceive themselves. I guess this is where the brainwashing comes in, no matter how you might feel about yourself now, after given a role, you are then brainwashed and educated to follow that role only.
But maybe there's this idea of qunari being born without any kind of fixed gender, and then later they are assigned their gender with their role? But that would seem kind of impossible since the idea of gender is largely based on biology, and the roles are most likely given taken into consideration one's biology. But maybe body type is more vital in determining '' gender '' than what kind of sexual organs you have instead.
I wonder if there is also some sort of '' dysphoria '' for those who are assigned a role and with that their gender, if their brainwashing just isn't good enough.
This all isn't really taking into consideration whether there are jobs under the Qun where both those perceived as men and women work in, and that just muddles the concept of gender under the Qun more.
Regardless, I think the concept of '' gender and sex '' under Qun is an interesting topic, just wish people would be more open-minded and not so stuck on retcons and '' inclusivity. ''
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Mar 5, 2020 11:13:26 GMT
Because Patrick Weekes himself said that Aqun Athlok was a soft retcon meant to make the story more inclusive. Only that... he failed. The Qun is no more trans friendly than before. When? I don't recall him making that statement. Interviewer: But! I did want to ask... from the beginning, in each chapter of the Dragon Age trilogy, we've seen a widening and more complex exploration of the Qunari culture. So first we get Sten, and then we get the Arishok in Dragon Age II (who needs to call me, by the way), and then we have of course my darling Iron Bull in Inquisition. And it's... to me, in each case, it feels like you were presenting us with a sort of subtle expansion of our awareness of what this culture really is. And how did The Iron Bull fit into that for you guys? It's just... he's such a paradox, I think, in some ways. PATRICK: Well, um, because I was on a tiny bit of Origins, and then did not come back until Inquisition, while I would love to be able to say that we had a complete, coherent, master plan for how everything was going to go—um, the truth is, with each of these games, we put these things out, and we swing for the fences, and we see what people latch onto and what they're interested in, and where we can go, "Okay, that part, people didn't really respond to, so we can just sort of leave that one off by the side of the road..." Or, meanwhile, "There's this thing people really want more of, so let's do more of this." And so from an out-of-game standpoint, the Qun in Dragon Age: Inquisition is definitely a little different from Dragon Age: Origins. I'm fairly certain that when Sten adamantly declares that the female Warden is actually male because she fights (and therefore she must be male)... Bull's perspective is rather, "I have changed what the Qun means for that." And so the heart of that is just because Origins came out in 2010, right? KARIN: 2009. PATRICK: Oops, late 2009. Hey, sorry, like... dates are hard... KARIN (snickering): It's the whole tenth anniversary thing. PATRICK (laughing): Exactly. It's that whole tenth anniversary thing, man, yeah. But that was definitely a big question for a lot of people, that difference between Sten's definition of the Aqun-Athlok and Bull's. Especially because it has such significance for Krem, from Inquisition. PATRICK: So for me, what I mean on this is... Out of game? Yes, we are changing things. And part of the reason we're changing things is because we want to be more inclusive. www.dumpeddrunkanddalish.com/2019/12/soft-retcons-and-krogan-valentines.html?m=1
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11387
0
Apr 20, 2024 15:08:45 GMT
Deleted
0
Apr 20, 2024 15:08:45 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 16:40:18 GMT
OK, fair enough. The Aqun-Athlok didn’t really trigger my “Oh Christ, they’re making this game too PC now” alarm bell, because I saw it as more indicative of the Qun’s rigid views on gender and societal roles. “That woman can fight, therefore she must actually be a man!” That said, I’d be lying if I wasn’t afraid of Dragon Age 4 being Social Justice Simulator 2022, where the Influence meter has been replaced by “Wokeness.”
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Mar 5, 2020 19:08:45 GMT
OK, fair enough. The Aqun-Athlok didn’t really trigger my “Oh Christ, they’re making this game too PC now” alarm bell, because I saw it as more indicative of the Qun’s rigid views on gender and societal roles. “That woman can fight, therefore she must actually be a man!” That said, I’d be lying if I wasn’t afraid of Dragon Age 4 being Social Justice Simulator 2022, where the Influence meter has been replaced by “Wokeness” and you lose approval from companions for not using the correct pronouns. Oh no, Dragon Age doesn't bother me. Compared to... say, Captain Marvel, it is pretty subtle and doesn't go out of its way to preach to you.
|
|
TheEmptyRoad
N2
Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: The3mptyRoad
PSN: TheEmptyRoad
Posts: 168 Likes: 300
inherit
2743
0
Apr 16, 2024 11:17:34 GMT
300
TheEmptyRoad
Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
168
January 2017
theemptyroad
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The3mptyRoad
TheEmptyRoad
|
Post by TheEmptyRoad on Mar 8, 2020 2:59:57 GMT
My only problem with that Krem scene was every option where you asked about his passing, it made it sound like you were being a dick and Bull gets protective like the Dad he is. There was no real option to just say "aiight, cool man" and move on.
|
|
TheEmptyRoad
N2
Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: The3mptyRoad
PSN: TheEmptyRoad
Posts: 168 Likes: 300
inherit
2743
0
Apr 16, 2024 11:17:34 GMT
300
TheEmptyRoad
Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
168
January 2017
theemptyroad
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The3mptyRoad
TheEmptyRoad
|
Post by TheEmptyRoad on Mar 8, 2020 3:01:01 GMT
And to answer your question OP. No. Men are not and never will be Tamassrans, biology be damned.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 20, 2024 10:24:31 GMT
30,241
Hanako Ikezawa
22,352
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 8, 2020 8:20:23 GMT
My only problem with that Krem scene was every option where you asked about his passing, it made it sound like you were being a dick and Bull gets protective like the Dad he is. There was no real option to just say "aiight, cool man" and move on. Yeah, the only way not to seem like a jerk is to choose the option that just ignores the whole conversation by asking about the others.
|
|
inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Mar 8, 2020 9:53:44 GMT
And to answer your question OP. No. Men are not and never will be Tamassrans, biology be damned. But women '' can '' be warriors. Isn't that a man's job?
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 842 Likes: 1,156
inherit
1451
0
Apr 18, 2024 23:49:50 GMT
1,156
xerrai
842
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Mar 12, 2020 4:48:17 GMT
And to answer your question OP. No. Men are not and never will be Tamassrans, biology be damned. But women '' can '' be warriors. Isn't that a man's job? It is indeed a man's job as far the Qunari is concerned. Which is why as soon as a woman becomes a warrior, she will be considered a man. Similarly, if a man were to become a tamassran, he would be considered a she by the rest of thier society. Biology and self-identity don't really matter all that much to the Qun. Being a tamassran is a 'female job', therefore every tamassran is female. Even if some of them have male biology.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,165
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,820
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 12, 2020 16:09:06 GMT
I'm a little confused by the use of "men" in the OP; was that meant to mean men as defined by the Qun, or beings which present anatomically as male?
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Mar 12, 2020 16:52:12 GMT
I'm a little confused by the use of "men" in the OP; was that meant to mean men as defined by the Qun, or beings which present anatomically as male? Under the Qun, having the necessary traits to become a good tamassran already makes you a woman. So as far as they're concerned, tamassrans are never men, even when they technically are.
|
|
mikoto
N2
Big fan of the Dragon Age series. Usually enjoy a good lore discussion.
Posts: 116 Likes: 112
inherit
1344
0
112
mikoto
Big fan of the Dragon Age series. Usually enjoy a good lore discussion.
116
Aug 29, 2016 18:33:14 GMT
August 2016
mikoto
|
Post by mikoto on May 7, 2020 0:30:43 GMT
I have to admit I never really liked the whole aqun-athlok thing anyway.
The Qunari are an oppressive, 'enemy' culture that essentially wants to enslave the world by force. Why then try to make them an inclusive culture? As for Krem yeah its no big deal. I was mildly surprise when I first noticed he was trans, but then my reaction was kinda 'all right cool' and moved on.
|
|
dayze
N2
Posts: 186 Likes: 78
inherit
1270
0
78
dayze
186
August 2016
dayze
|
Post by dayze on May 7, 2020 1:55:55 GMT
It's kind of interesting in two ways; I don't see much of a point in making the Qun more inclusive, far as gender is concerned, isn't Thedas(well Ferelden anyways) fairly open minded anyways?
But that aside; the more interesting way is that the interview seems to put it forth as "That's how Iron Bull interprets it" which would definitely seem that the Qun is more open to interpretation than most Qunari would like to admit.
It also allows for a hand-wave as well; this view on gender-roles is perhaps not the Qunari as a whole but simply Iron Bull's.
Though as far as inclusiveness goes, it might have started in DA2 as an actual goal, with the creation of the half-elf mage that actually had some elven features to him, somewhat contradicting previous canon but allowing a form of mix-raced to exist.
|
|