Heimdall
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 6, 2020 14:43:34 GMT
Wait, there are only 12 thaigs? That doesn’t sound right.
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Post by smudjygirl on Apr 6, 2020 15:01:59 GMT
Wait, there are only 12 thaigs? That doesn’t sound right. Isn't it that there are 12 "Great Thaigs"? EDIT1: From what i remember, Great Thaigs are like the capitals of each part of the Kingdom (like Orzammar) and then there are lesser 'city' thaigs (like Ortan?). So 12 'Great' Thaigs like Kal'hirol/sharok, Orzammar and i'm guessing Hormak, plus possibly thousands of smaller Thaigs.
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Post by necrowaif on Apr 6, 2020 17:31:20 GMT
Horror of Hormak was one of those “OK” stories. It started off really promisingly, but I’m not a big fan of the Mix and Match Critters trope - a hurlock with a drake’s body or a halla with Varterral legs amuses me more than it scares me, since that combination is basically less effective than the “pure versions” of those creatures. And it doesn’t help that the monster creating all the big holes was basically one of the monster centipedes from One Punch Man. The real knee-slapper, though, was that the story portrayed the Dalish as even more hilariously wrong than they already are. The halla were never created to be “friends of the People” - they were the beasts made by Ghilan’nain to haul experimental subjects to her monster factories. And the aravels were their prison wagons! On the plus side, I no longer feel bad about all those halla I murdered on the Exalted Plains.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 6, 2020 18:40:21 GMT
The real knee-slapper, though, was that the story portrayed the Dalish as even more hilariously wrong than they already are.
Actually I'm finding it beyond a joke that this keeps occurring. Loss of cultural memory through enslavement by Tevinter might explain some of the lack of knowledge about their ancestors but it seems to me that the culture of the Ancient Elves was so at variance with their folklore that some of it ought to have come through. If the Dalish are unaware it must be because in ancient times the majority of the population were also unaware of what the "gods" were doing behind the scenes.
Then there is the problem of the dwarves. It was hinted in the Descent that those in charge of the memories may have omitted or erased history that was difficult for the modern leadership either to reconcile themselves to or explain away. However, if all these laboratories were under the Thaigs, why were they never discovered in the past? The darkspawn only appeared and overran the Deep Roads in the last 1300 years or so, so there was a period of around 2500 years from the disappearance of the Evanuris when the dwarves had free access, so how come these areas were never found then?
The only explanation I can come up with is that the seals the elves placed on the passages recounted in Trespasser prevented anyone from going deeper and then these were broken by the invasion of the Magisters into the Black City.
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Post by necrowaif on Apr 6, 2020 19:11:35 GMT
The real knee-slapper, though, was that the story portrayed the Dalish as even more hilariously wrong than they already are.
Actually I'm finding it beyond a joke that this keeps occurring. Loss of cultural memory through enslavement by Tevinter might explain some of the lack of knowledge about their ancestors but it seems to me that the culture of the Ancient Elves was so at variance with their folklore that some of it ought to have come through. If the Dalish are unaware it must be because in ancient times the majority of the population were also unaware of what the "gods" were doing behind the scenes.
Personally, I've always felt Dalish mythology had kind of a "rose-coloured" feel, like they cobbled together their legends from bits and pieces and twisted the end result to make their lost gods sound a lot more benevolent (except for the Dread Wolf, who they made sound like a petty buffoon). It kind of makes sense that a people desperate to re-capture the trappings of their lost civilization would gloss over or ignore the ugly bits, especially when their ancestors spoke of their gods with such reverence.
Let's take the myth of how Ghilan'nain became a halla: she discovered a hunter who had killed a hawk, so she prayed to the goddess Andruil to curse him so that he could slay no other animals. Out of revenge, the hunter captured Ghilan'nain, "binded her as would a fresh kill" and then blinded her. She then prayed to the gods for help, so they sent hares to chew through her ropes and then transform her into the first halla.
Now let's consider what happened in the Horror of Hormak. First, the Wardens come upon a survivor who has torn out her own eyes (ie. been blinded) and bind her to keep her from hurting herself further, but she apparently chews through her own ropes and then flees just far enough to die of her wounds. Had she not died, she likely would have transformed into a monster.
The parallels between the Mother of Halla myth and the events of Horror of Hormak are obvious, so I'm thinking they took the account of one of Ghilan'hain's test subjects and mutated it into this lovely creation myth. This was likely reinforced by depictions of halla pulling aravel, though the elves of the Dales didn't really understand the context.
(BTW, full credit to the Redditor in this thread for pointing out the similarity between HoH and the Mother of Halla.)
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Grog Muffins
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Post by Grog Muffins on Apr 6, 2020 20:10:00 GMT
Then there is the problem of the dwarves. It was hinted in the Descent that those in charge of the memories may have omitted or erased history that was difficult for the modern leadership either to reconcile themselves to or explain away. However, if all these laboratories were under the Thaigs, why were they never discovered in the past? The darkspawn only appeared and overran the Deep Roads in the last 1300 years or so, so there was a period of around 2500 years from the disappearance of the Evanuris when the dwarves had free access, so how come these areas were never found then?
To be fair, it's a theory that's only based on a number similarity at this point. It's probably best to file it under "wouldn't it be cool if..." and wait until more information pops up since, like you said, there's stuff that doesn't make much sense if you start looking into it too much.
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Post by necrowaif on Apr 6, 2020 20:27:21 GMT
In the Order of the Stick webcomic, a group of adventurers built castles and dungeons to protect rifts in the fabric of reality. (Except in the case of the druid, who just protected the forest her rift was located in.)
Perhaps the dwarves did the same thing, building their rift on top of Ghilly's laboratory to ensure it would never be disturbed. Unfortunately, the darkspawn kind of buggered that up.
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Post by ellawyn on Apr 6, 2020 20:51:21 GMT
I do remember reading Genitivi Dies At The End and thinking "Wait, so this library full of ancient elven lore is just... sitting around? And it's fairly easily accessible, enough that three non-combative scholars with only one actual warrior were able to reach it without much trouble? When it's in the Deep Roads, which is famously targeted by treasure hunters like Varric, nevermind any passing Dalish that might want to reclaim their history? Hold up, how did they even know the location of this place if no one's ever been there and ransacked it before now? It's had to have been standing for thousands of years."
I mean, you can raise similar points about places like the Temple of Andraste or Fen'Harel's mountain fort, but at least those are all sitting in remote locations behind layers of deadly threats, if not straight up inaccessible without magic like the Crossroads. The Gentivi group just walked in, literally. The only trouble they found was from a threat that pursued them from outside. How's no one discovered and robbed it before now?
I try to write such questions off as a necessary evil of short stories. Just roll with it. That being said, I can see it being an issue in future games if they continually have us stumble on ancient secrets that have, apparently, just been sitting around undiscovered for thousands of years.
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Post by yogsothoth on Apr 6, 2020 22:41:52 GMT
Keep in mind that the Genitivi story is also being told as a story in-universe, and it is explicitly said that parts are being embellished by Philliam.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Apr 6, 2020 22:53:16 GMT
Lol...only everything after they escaped the mine shaft is fabricated. Hardly anything.
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Post by ellawyn on Apr 7, 2020 0:23:13 GMT
Keep in mind that the Genitivi story is also being told as a story in-universe, and it is explicitly said that parts are being embellished by Philliam. I considered that, but to a certain degree I kinda feel like that makes worse. If the point was to sell their cover story as completely nonfictional, seems kinda dumb to put such an obvious lie in it. But I guess "Philliam is a bad liar and none of his peers caught how blatantly false that would come across as" is better than "Ancient cache of priceless elven secrets laid around in a hole undiscovered for thousands of years." It also raises the question of where did they ACTUALLY go. Or did they go nowhere at all, and the story is entirely fake, cooked up wholesale at some tavern table?
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Apr 7, 2020 0:30:47 GMT
Keep in mind that the Genitivi story is also being told as a story in-universe, and it is explicitly said that parts are being embellished by Philliam. I considered that, but to a certain degree I kinda feel like that makes worse. If the point was to sell their cover story as completely nonfictional, seems kinda dumb to put such an obvious lie in it. But I guess "Philliam is a bad liar and none of his peers caught how blatantly false that would come across as" is better than "Ancient cache of priceless elven secrets laid around in a hole undiscovered for thousands of years." It also raises the question of where did they ACTUALLY go. Or did they go nowhere at all, and the story is entirely fake, cooked up wholesale at some tavern table? I think they actually went to a piece of fallen Arlathan, but they can't say what they actually found there, because "that's for the Generals (aka the Inquisition inner circle)."
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 8, 2020 16:32:57 GMT
To be fair, the library section wasn't just "down a hole". They had to go thru a network of seams and tunnels. They started in a mine, and that was their way in and out, but the actual Vir Dirthara bit was basically transposed into a random bit of rock in the middle of the ground when the Veil went up and only revealed when someone dared go down a crack that had formed in the side of a darkspawn tunnel. Which means that entrance wasn't there till the darkspawn dug that tunnel, presumably during the 4th blight.
And then it was still a darkspawn infested tunnel, so ain't nobody going down there to check Crazy Bob's claim that he got drunk, got lost, and hid from some darkspawn in a crack that led to a magical library. (Or something similar.) His claim becomes a rumor, rumor falls into obscurity, treasure hunter types become the only ones motivated enough to check it out, and the Lords of Fortune find it. It holds together for me.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2020 6:13:46 GMT
Eight Little Talons:
Boy! Another great Antivan Crow Story. Just what is it about them in this book that is just so...compelling? I mean I like Assassins Guilds well enough as a concept but I never really cared for the Crows per se. But man every single one of these stories has at least been an RBI tripple and they are rapidly coming up on third on 'things I am looking most forward to in DA 4' list with the Qunari and Solas...well probably put 'learning about human history' in front of them too.
This time out a fun little murder mystery set against the backdrop of Antiva getting ready to face the Qunari. As a quick aside it is actually a really fascinating cultural development that the Crows are basically their only real defenses. Anyways Teia and Viago are both excellent characters and I kind of liked their...budding interest...for one another. Actually pretty much all the characters were distinct in their own way. But the most surprising thing was, again, more references to the Crows being more of a moralist institution when A. the person whodunit referenced that they had lost their way and B. they were originally a priest order. And I was wrong about the murderer btw but I will admit it was actually an excellent job of making the red herring the red herring.
So references to other things which could indicate their importance: Obviously this is our third Crow Story, Antiva is getting ready for war with the Qunari, more people commenting on the split in the Qun, and I got a good chuckle out of what I am 99% sure was Lucanis being reffered to as 'the demon'.
Just again lots of good stuff.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2020 10:20:16 GMT
B. they were originally a priest order. This isn't totally new information. It had previously been referenced in an in-game codex (I think DA2) but was something that could easily be missed since I hadn't picked up on it whilst playing but had my attention drawn to it on the old boards. Somewhat ironic that a group set up to combat a tyrant should effectively become so dominant in society themselves through intimidation. I have always seen them as something akin to the Mafia or the old East End London gangsters; they protect the area they inhabit from external threats and this inadvertently benefits the ordinary folk but only in the organisation's own interests and fear of reprisals is what stops anyone from acting against them (plus corruption in the political elite). Reading Zevran's full story in WoT2, in particular the way his mother was treated by the Crows, means I would not want to have anything to do with one of their members other than to persuade them to abandon the organisation. To be honest, whilst I wouldn't want the Qun to take over Antiva, if the Antaam and the Crows were involved in a way that resulted in their mutual destruction it would be to the benefit of the ordinary folk in that country.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 13, 2020 3:38:07 GMT
Half up Front:
So another one that frankly really confused the hell out of me and seemed to play fast and loose with some elements of the lore. Granted it was interesting in bits, the first person protag and Iriane was neat and they had my really believing they were in mortal danger. The use of the magical wind was also a nice touch and it was nice to see some more description on exactly how magic is used... as well as a magical bomb is also quite an interesting development. Also the name dropping of Fellassan was REALLY interesting. Where the heck did that come from? Was he after it or was it just a code thing?
Just where is the real Dumat's Folly, what is it?
Also Solas's plan ended up being...very Solas.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 14, 2020 5:33:01 GMT
Dreadwolf Take You:Kind of frustarting but I might've overhyped it in my head too but it still ended up being pretty good just not the best. So in general it was a really interesting choice to have this being a back and forth call back type of a story with the set up being a back and forth told through a series of unreliable narrators...A really unreliable narrator in this case. So it did offer plenty of big revelations though and it was chalk full of interesting tid bits which DA 4 probably will be expanding on. So 'The Dread Wolf' made reference that the idol was his. Now that could be his usual arrogance talking or his desire to make it his for the ritual but then the question becomes...what if? What if the idol really IS his from the way back? Either it being forged in Red Lyrium or corrupted by Red Lyrium becomes really interesting. Also the idol seems to confirm some of the observations from YouTubers of the channel. That the two figures are embracing...and I don't think its insignificant that multiple ones of the people in the room called it 'like a lover's embrace'. Perhaps the really big and juicy revelation though is Solas's ritual...whatever it is...is already being done and already effecting the Fade. And he also seems to have the Idol at this point which makes me wonder how horrible things will be when we do get to DA 4...I mean I don't want to think the Veil will just come down in the first few moments but if its already happening. Of course Solas being there in the room got a pretty big gasp reaction from me... And the fact that he actually knows the Executors and knows them as dangerous raises all sorts of interesting questions. Almost we got more from...him. Of course the frustrating part though is...while this is a DA staple...its hard to know what was actually the truth as presented in the stories? Was Divine Victoria really at the auction?...etc etc. Though Solas is once again scary powerful in this. Though I do also have to wonder what was up with Charter?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 14, 2020 5:44:10 GMT
Though I do also have to wonder what was up with Charter? What do you mean? Also I hope you're right about the Veil not being removed in the beginning moments of the game. I don't think it will though, since why offer the choices they did at the end of Trespasser if that was the plan?
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Post by colfoley on Apr 14, 2020 6:00:47 GMT
Though I do also have to wonder what was up with Charter? What do you mean? Also I hope you're right about the Veil not being removed in the beginning moments of the game. I don't think it will though, since why offer the choices they did at the end of Trespasser if that was the plan? Might be one of those instances where a fan theory kind of warps reality but while I was reading it I thought it was going to be revealed that Charter was working for Solas...but then that did not come to pass...but yet she 'asked for her life' Probably nothing really but the scene did come off as kind of sketchy. And yeah, I don't think they will but between this and some of what I have heard happens in comics this might be the most 'start in the middle of the crisis' in DA history. How far will the Antaam have spread their war with Thedas? Antiva and Rivain have both been mentioned in this story as being targets or under the influence...and then with multiple stories happening IN Nevarra have to wonder if that will be a target/ location we will visit. Solas mentioning his ritual is always underway and the people of Thedas (mages) are already noticing its effects. Honestly reading the story at times...and I know you probably won't get this reference...but it just reminds me of some of the stuff I heard for the commentary to 24 where they wanted Jack's story in season 6 to start basically after the crisis already happened and trying to pick up the pieces rather then STOPPING it. Again the Veil coming down in the opening quest for DA 4 would be unfathomable to me...but the book is hinting at something. Of course the big counter to that is 'The Dread Wolf Take You' starts IMMEDIETLY prior to DA 4 starting and not really a lot of time has passed...but of course if Solas already has the idol...argh the game is going to be so hard to wait for!
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Post by theascendent on Apr 14, 2020 8:05:48 GMT
Thanks to this book I have never been more convinced and assured of my decision to kill Solas at any cost. Also the only good Qunari is a dead Qunari.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 14, 2020 9:06:16 GMT
Charter being Solas' agent was just a fan theory cus she was a named elf we don't know much about. Also, she wasn't really featured at all in the main game and then was suddenly Leliana's right hand in Trespasser, which kinda makes her stand out. I kinda want to see her dealing with people presuming she's with the Dread Wolf cus she's an elf in DA4. Though she kinda already had a stint dealing with prejudice against elves from that subordinate she has conversations with in Haven, so it might be retreading things. Unless that guy is back and defending her to others now? That could be cool.
When it came to agents of the Dread Wolf, I had three possible candidates going in to this: Charter, Voth, and Sketch. The first two (especially Charter) seem to have been cleared now. Sketch's allegiance prolly won't matter, but I'm still curious. lol
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Post by andydandymandy on Apr 14, 2020 19:59:02 GMT
Charter was begging Solas for her life because she figured out he was the masked spy, and was about to start killing people in the room. She obviously wasn't keen on getting murdered.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 14, 2020 23:12:03 GMT
So yeah in hindsight I realized that the whole Charter thing was a bit of an idiotic leap on my point given her (presumably human) lover.
Anyways I did also miss a couple of the other thoughts/ revelations which came from the Dread Wolf Take You.
So first off a bit of an expansion on the whole 'the idol is mine' bit. It actually makes a fair bit of sense that it actually is his given someone mentioned that an Elven legend had it being the key to releasing their imprisoned gods. It does suggest that that is what Solas would've then used to love them away in the first place...which also makes it interesting since people seem to think it shows him killing Mythal at the end of Inquisition.
And yeah more that I think about it the more it seems likely he does not have the idol...Jackdaw does not seem to think he does either and the Bard's Tale was a complete fabrication...which now makes a LOT of sensse given how he described everyone reacting to him. `
Anywho here is my list of those that I liked.
1. Murder by Death Mages. 2. An Old Crow's Tricks (the first two were reealllllyyy hard to rank) 3. Three Trees to Midnight 4. Callback 5. The Dreadwolf Take You 6. Eight Little Talons 7. The Wigmaker 8. Genitivi Dies in the End 9. Hunger 10. The Horror of Hormock 11. Herold had the Plan 12. Down Among the Dead Men 13. The Streets of Minrauthous. 14. Half Up Front 15. Luck in the Garden.
Actually ranking them like this I realized this collection was pretty good at the end. Stories 1-8 I would rate as being 'pretty high quality' though the last 3 were pretty meh...just to me.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 14, 2020 23:26:08 GMT
So yeah in hindsight I realized that the whole Charter thing was a bit of an idiotic leap on my point given her (presumably human) lover. Tessa is human, yes. She’s one of the comic book characters. dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Tessa_ForsythiaAs for the idol, interesting to note that nobody talks about how there are actually three figures. There are the two in an embrace, but there’s a third one (who happens to be missing their left arm )
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Post by colfoley on Apr 14, 2020 23:53:00 GMT
So yeah in hindsight I realized that the whole Charter thing was a bit of an idiotic leap on my point given her (presumably human) lover. Tessa is human, yes. She’s one of the comic book characters. dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Tessa_ForsythiaAs for the idol, interesting to note that nobody talks about how there are actually three figures. There are the two in an embrace, but there’s a third one (who happens to be missing their left arm ) more evidence for the Inquisitor to be the protagonist mayhaps? And ANOTHER revelation too which I found super telling is Solas (in Wolf form) mentions that the Tevinter ritual risks undoing his work which risks ALL of creation. Now of course this could mean it's a threat to Elves and that's all he cares abouy... or it could just be more evidence to what I've been thinking that he is not really after Thedas destruction. I mean hell he was laying it on that telling the Inquisitor was a mistake really thick.
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