Divine Leliana's reforms (that don't involve magic)

you guys forget one of them

reinstating the Lost Chanticles of Shartan

while it's not a reform, it has always been a sore subject and a dangerous one to study by members of the Chantry

That elf we save in Sebastian's Act 2 quest writes us in Act 3 and she became a Sister in Starkhaven.  dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Letter:_Letter_from_Sister_Arielle

They do?? I'm of the opinion that a tradition that isn't fair, or is hurtful (such as not allowing men who feel called to the priesthood to become Revered Fathers, or not allowing Vashoth or mages, etc.), is not a tradition worth preserving. And not everybody has to feel that way - and clearly they don't! Both in the Chantry and irl - but I get why Leliana does.


That definitely depends, I think, on how you view spirituality and sexuality. If you feel that they're opposed, clearly a Divine with a lover is going to skeeve you out, but in the end the Divine is just a person. A faithful person and a dutiful person, one hopes, but still just a person. They eat and shit and love and mourn like everyone else.

Ah, thanks both of you. It is one of those "blink and you miss it" details, as I only played this quest once. So now we need a qunari to fill up the quota to have one of each race.


I guess this is a half-empty vs. half-full dilemma then. You say that it should be kept as it does not hurt the people in question as they know what they signed up for and that it has always been that way. I'd say it does hurt to some extent and if there's no other compelling reason to keep it, then get rid of it. "That is how it has always been" isn't that much compelling to me, with regards to the rest one has to weigh the risk of upsetting traditionalists vs. upsetting those who want to participate, but aren't allowed to. I'd say that putting a blanket restriction on a certain group of people does constitute discrimintion in the sense of the word, and the Chantry does it.


It was more of a wild guess anyway.

As already mentioned, it depends on the belief in question and one's personal view. It might diminish the gravitas that surrounds some religions, but this may simply be assumed just because the teachings say so, apart from not adressing the multitude of other possible interpretations of course. Though I get that certain highly religious characters are understandably simply unable to see past the customs they are used to.

Though my Divine is Cass (a middle ground so to say), but some of Leliana's reforms I like (or not).

1.

I think it is one of the best things from her reforms.
The chantry burried that part because...?! Whatever. The truth is the truth. If the chantry can just remove some parts of the Chant in the world full of maker-believers, how should others feel about it? I feel disdain for such institution.
Reminds me of DLC Descend where Shapers just removed important historical events and not only in that DLC; only I thought when it comes down to history, Shapers are the only ones whom you can trust. Turns out they are corrupted, like the people's chantry.





Also think it is a good thing.
But there could be a problem which is impossible to control. What if many other from different races join the chantry? One wouldn't even notice how racial identity can vanish. There could be some remains, with changes, but what of true cultural preservation? It could be lost, though such process takes much time.
It is a good reform, but dangerous at the same time. Thus, imo, some additional sub-reforms or something else should be done.
Losing your own identity does not suit every person and it is really difficult to preserve your own culture when many others from your kind decided to join another faith all of a sudden.



See no harm. Why not? What is the point of NOT giving men the same rights in the chantry as women have?
If a man feels he can and want do more in the chantry but can't as there are some limitations, what good is to keep him from going up.
As for traditions: there have always been, are and will be zealots, unhappy people no matter what you do. It is unavoidable. And when it concerns big important institutions, there are always some unhappy who find any reason to be unhappy because "new ruler/reforms/renaming the city/anything".
Thus if men want to go up in the chantry, go ahead. And don't care what exactly zealots tell about it. Will get used to it anyway as it usually happens.



I am not a religious person, but think there is some explanation (that came from some person and written as "must be"), why no relationships - something like "Devotion to the Maker, soul and body".
Do not care why Leliana did that (because of GW or not), only do not see the point of such "sacrafice". A faithful person with a family is still dedicated to the maker. And peopele will not go to such priest only because he has a family or a woman he loves? For me it is weird to avoid such priest. For others may me different.

This one irks me as well. Granted, I'm rather averse to most of the Chantry's core teachings, but if they take that off-putting racism away, some people might feel more inclined to join up without thinking much on what to expect. The Chantry has quite a history of painting things brighter than they are. Just take any templar who just joined the Order "to do something good" and later had a rude awakening. Though, from Chantry perspective, people dropping/loosing their original culture is an extremely good thing. They do want everyone to convert and "sing along" afterall. Leliana does not address the conversion mandate at all. Why should she anyway? Like most fervent believers, she thinks her stuff is the best and perhaps cannot even grasp while someone might not want it.

Can someone disingeniously hide the truth if they do not know it in the first place?

Yep, played, saw, asked, experienced. Aweful institution.
Thanks for the link.




Nobody is perfect?

It is unwritten law: any institution is corrupted and spoiled (or will be soon) one way or another.
C'est la vie.

I'm not an expert on city elves, but they still do have some cultural snippets unique to them. I've never heard of a Dalish Vhenadahl for example, though that might be due to a tree with its stationary nature being rather impractical for nomads. And as you mentioned, they were forced into "faithful submission", and some city elves apparently remember that. Another question is how many are actually "faithful" (however one may define it) or just playing along. DAI had a few "village elves" around Redcliffe who knew about Dalish mythology afterall and did not freak out, despite the Chantry's best attempts. Also, as far as I'm concerned, I cannot in good concscience accept if people are being subjected to the slave mindset and brainwashing from young age that is predominant in the Chantry, the Qun and quite a few real world religions.

The chantry knows how to make itself attractive and how to use others to join it. A long history of using different methods making others join the singing and making donations. And killing peoples if the Divine wants.
The thing that already a dwarf and an elf decided to open/join the chantry is disturbing.



Even if Samson is an enemy in DAI, his words - the chantry used us, and you know that - complete truth. And yes, I agree with him in this 100 %. Used and threw away. No wonder Cullen wants to open hospitals to take care of "old" templars.




Btw, already in Ostagar you meet such chantry people, insulting your GW of another race even if you refused from the blessing politely.
In addition you can hear that we will not win because of such GW as we are - heathens. GWs are weak because of such members.
Good to know in the end of the game.

Qunari people wants to conque the whole world and spread by force their culture. But will leave them as they over there somewhere already.
Dwarves want to be near the stone preserving their culture w/o converting others(there are those on the surface, but they just left the underground w/o joining the chantry, at least I did not notice dwarves in chantries).
Elves - dalish, even city elves (CO GW) - preserve their culture w/o converting other races (city elves can join the dalish, but they are the same race).
Human Chantry wants to convert everyone, no matter the race. Though it does not act as the Qunari, but use other, more subtle methods. What is wrong with the chantry?

Thus that reform is dangerous. The chantry itself is dangerous and just lures other to join.





It was enough to talk to her in DAO to understand her character, including religion. In DAI suspisions confirmed.

India got it's independence from Britain 70 years ago. My indian boyfriend used the phrase, "Kindly do the needful" and I laughed my ass off, thinking it was just a hindi to english literal translation error. Even though he assured me he'd used it for years in many official capacities in India and no one had ever commented on it.

But yesterday, I saw it used in an Indian movie, which finally made me look it up online. This phrase WAS used by the British starting in the Victorian Era. As an American, I've never seen it used, nor have I seen any of my british based acquaintances use it. And it still sounds like nonesense to my ears.