Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 27, 2020 18:25:38 GMT
See that's exactly my argument for bringing back the milky way. It seems like such a waste to craft a setting like the Mass Effect milky way galaxy, with all it's character and intricacies, just to throw it away for the far more shallow Andromeda galaxy. There's more than enough scope to do new things in the Milky Way. Think of the Clone Wars. I haven't seen that show but it's held in pretty high regard: www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/star-wars-the-clone-warsWould you have ever believed , after "The Phantom Menace" had just been released, that a critically acclaimed animated series would've come out of the utter mess that the Star Wars prequels were ? MEA was not a bad game, it had lackluster reception because people didn't think it was as good as the OT but no one who is a serious person said the game was as poor in content as the star wars prequels.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 27, 2020 18:27:09 GMT
My stance is that there is huge adventure potential in a Shepard survives destroy milky way, with the high EMS filter and have all the surviving crew mates return, that nobody is going to give two shits about the endings, the moment that you get to fight next to Liara and Tali and Garrus again and everyone who complains will shut up and buy it. I am pretty sure plenty of people would be annoyed we are stuck with the same companions again that fall into the same categories as before. I feel like the entire roster of the MET has pretty much gone through all the adventure they could, and at this point there would just be fatigue, with nowhere else for them to go or for us to learn about them. I guess the writers could do something horrifying like trying hard to subvert our expectations to make it seem fresh, but I’m 99.9% sure it would be absolute shite.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 27, 2020 18:31:12 GMT
See that's exactly my argument for bringing back the milky way. It seems like such a waste to craft a setting like the Mass Effect milky way galaxy, with all it's character and intricacies, just to throw it away for the far more shallow Andromeda galaxy. There's more than enough scope to do new things in the Milky Way. Think of the Clone Wars. I haven't seen that show but it's held in pretty high regard: www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/star-wars-the-clone-warsWould you have ever believed , after "The Phantom Menace" had just been released, that a critically acclaimed animated series would've come out of the utter mess that the Star Wars prequels were ? MEA was not a bad game, it had lackluster reception because people didn't think it was as good as the OT but no one who is a serious person said the game was as poor in content as the star wars prequels. The Clone Wars did benefit from the fact that, as troubled as the prequel trilogy was, the films did not render the setting unusable for improvements, like the Mass Effect trilogy did.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 27, 2020 18:45:27 GMT
Think of the Clone Wars. I haven't seen that show but it's held in pretty high regard: www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/star-wars-the-clone-warsWould you have ever believed , after "The Phantom Menace" had just been released, that a critically acclaimed animated series would've come out of the utter mess that the Star Wars prequels were ? MEA was not a bad game, it had lackluster reception because people didn't think it was as good as the OT but no one who is a serious person said the game was as poor in content as the star wars prequels. The Clone Wars did benefit from the fact that, as troubled as the prequel trilogy was, the films did not render the setting unusable for improvements, like the Mass Effect trilogy did. I wouldn't say the Milky Way it's "unusable", it's just that too many resources would have to be invested at the moment to create an homogenous setting. I'd rather the writers focus on a new setting that is rich for the taking. Maybe one day we can simply go back to the Milky Way. One thing people don't often propose is String Theory. Maybe we can one day play a Milky Way from a different dimension. Planes and parallel realities are standard fare in RPG mythos.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 27, 2020 18:47:51 GMT
See that's exactly my argument for bringing back the milky way. It seems like such a waste to craft a setting like the Mass Effect milky way galaxy, with all it's character and intricacies, just to throw it away for the far more shallow Andromeda galaxy. There's more than enough scope to do new things in the Milky Way. Think of the Clone Wars. I haven't seen that show but it's held in pretty high regard: www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/star-wars-the-clone-warsWould you have ever believed , after "The Phantom Menace" had just been released, that a critically acclaimed animated series would've come out of the utter mess that the Star Wars prequels were ? MEA was not a bad game, it had lackluster reception because people didn't think it was as good as the OT but no one who is a serious person said the game was as poor in content as the star wars prequels. Fair. Star Wars is a good example actually. You've also got the Old Republic verse that worked really well despite being divorced from any of the characters or places of the films. The trouble is Mass Effect doesn't have the luxury of literally being able to release tons of content across different mediums every year. If one studio could do a Milky Way game, and another could do Andromeda ,I'd be all for an Andromeda 2. Sadly, We will be lucky to get a Mass Effect game in the next five years, and I rather they not waste the opportunity on the bare bones Andromeda universe when we've already got an awesome setting just sitting there.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 27, 2020 18:48:30 GMT
And this is the problem with Andromeda over the OT. It isn't organic and everything feels specifically constructed just so the Initiative can play the underdog. OT everyone is about the same tech level because they reverse engineer technology from Prothean artifacts and have a standing rule to share all new discoveries because of the potential advantage a single race can have if they horded it. Andromeda everyone has the same level of technology because reasons.
The Reapers methodically harvest all races of sufficient technological advancements sparing the younger races and leaving planets in a state that they can regenerate new life. The Remnant build massive terraforming machines without any sort of back up system so they go hay wire and render planets uninhabitable for no reason other then to have the Initiative fail at first so Ryder can ride in and be a hero.
OT we learn the Protheans helped guide and modify early Asari because they viewed them as potential future joiners of their Empire and later as the successors against the Reapers. Not to be out done the Jadaar one upped that by creating the Angara from the ground up like it is some dick measuring contest.
OT the galaxy is a big dangerous place and there have been several wide scale wars costing billions of lives for poking around places without exploring them first so literally every race has fleets of armed war ships to protect their colonies and for exploration in case they come into contact with a hostile alien force. Andromeda is lol lets jump millions of light years and hundreds of years away from any support armed with only some small arms and a few shuttle craft for defense. Clearly the mountain of history and billions of corpses don't mean anything. OH NO there are hostile aliens who don't like us and would have easily wiped us from existence 0.356 seconds after showing up if their leader didn't give a shit about us for plot related reasons. How could anyone have known that there are other races out there that are hostile and might attack you for showing up in locations you don't know anything about?
OT fans complain about how silly it is the Cerberus magically gains all these tech advantages. Cue Ryder senior building a super powerful EDI level AI with spare parts in his garage while EDI at least needed Reaper tech. Cue the Kett being mostly biologically focused in tech development with other technology seeming to be more imitative than innovative. Cue the Archon being able to magically understand everything about AI and the connections despite there being no sign of VI or AI equivalent in any Kett tech. Because plot demands the Kett magically learn and master this technology.
Andromeda did have potential. But that potential has been knee capped by the first game that doubled down on the worst aspects of the OT with only a few of the peaks of the OT.
Ryder wasn't even the hero. SAM was. Ryder's just the meat suit meat to get SAM to where it needs to go. And don't forget the AI magically creating tech that gets them past the Reaper trap without them even knowing it existed. A trap that has worked without fail for a billion years or more. Because...humans are special, I guess? This is an organization so brilliant that it managed to accomplish that, but didn't think to put some guns on their ships because there's no way Andromeda has pirates, hostile races of its own, suspicious nations, or any other hazards where shooting might be necessary. Nope just a few hand-held guns will be fine! All those families on the Arks don't need protecting! Mindoir was a hoax! I don't get the Reaper trap example.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 27, 2020 19:25:39 GMT
Fair. Star Wars is a good example actually. You've also got the Old Republic verse that worked really well despite being divorced from any of the characters or places of the films. The trouble is Mass Effect doesn't have the luxury of literally being able to release tons of content across different mediums every year. If one studio could do a Milky Way game, and another could do Andromeda ,I'd be all for an Andromeda 2. Sadly, We will be lucky to get a Mass Effect game in the next five years, and I rather they not waste the opportunity on the bare bones Andromeda universe when we've already got an awesome setting just sitting there. Oh I will deffinitely agree with you that this "a year a game" mentality in EA is toxic as fuck. Bioware's work shouldn't have to be rushed just to keep up with some fiscal quarter earnings. Fuck them. But I think Andromeda can still work: I know it's pretty bare bones as you say but hey... maybe the next one can take place 100 years after the first one. We could see a very old Ryder leading the initiative while we also see a completely different galaxy from the one we saw last time.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 27, 2020 19:34:16 GMT
The Clone Wars did benefit from the fact that, as troubled as the prequel trilogy was, the films did not render the setting unusable for improvements, like the Mass Effect trilogy did. I wouldn't say the Milky Way it's "unusable", it's just that too many resources would have to be invested at the moment to create an homogenous setting. I'd rather the writers focus on a new setting that is rich for the taking. Maybe one day we can simply go back to the Milky Way. One thing people don't often propose is String Theory. Maybe we can one day play a Milky Way from a different dimension. Planes and parallel realities are standard fare in RPG mythos.
I don't think it's really a matter of resources, just more of being in a bit of a bind as to which version of the setting to go with. If the trilogy gets a follow-up, BioWare will likely not implement a system that accounts for any player choice in the previous games, and essentially we'll just have to run with whatever world state they start with.
I don't think Mass Effect would be served well by introducing a multi-verse, and honestly it would probably turn me off to the franchise indefinitely.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 27, 2020 19:48:53 GMT
And don't forget the AI magically creating tech that gets them past the Reaper trap without them even knowing it existed. A trap that has worked without fail for a billion years or more. Because...humans are special, I guess?
I don't see what's so magical about it. The fact that the protheans managed to evade the reapers long enough to set things in motion for the next cycle shows a massive failure on the reapers' part. The fact that one managed to be permanently disabled by some unknown race in a previous cycle, and the fact that the Leviathan themselves avoided total extinction shows that the reaper trap has enough holes for people to pass through.
If anything, the trilogy firmly established the idea that the trap was always doomed to failure at some point, and it reached a critical point by the end of the Protheans' cycle. As for the AI just leaving the galaxy, it would be impossible for the reapers to establish an impenetrable net around the entire galactic horizon, and the chances of running into the reaper swarm after exiting a specific point in the galaxy would be infinitesimal.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 27, 2020 21:02:13 GMT
And don't forget the AI magically creating tech that gets them past the Reaper trap without them even knowing it existed. A trap that has worked without fail for a billion years or more. Because...humans are special, I guess?
I don't see what's so magical about it. The fact that the protheans managed to evade the reapers long enough to set things in motion for the next cycle shows a massive failure on the reapers' part. The fact that one managed to be permanently disabled by some unknown race in a previous cycle, and the fact that the Leviathan themselves avoided total extinction shows that the reaper trap has enough holes for people to pass through.
If anything, the trilogy firmly established the idea that the trap was always doomed to failure at some point, and it reached a critical point by the end of the Protheans' cycle. As for the AI just leaving the galaxy, it would be impossible for the reapers to establish an impenetrable net around the entire galactic horizon, and the chances of running into the reaper swarm after exiting a specific point in the galaxy would be infinitesimal.
The Reaper trap was the relay network. By setting up a limited, but VERY convenient travel system, it discouraged the races form pursuing other avenues of travel, and limited the range they would travel. Thus the Reapers knew exactly where to go for their harvests. Ilos evading Reaper detection had nothing to do with that. Nor the Reaper taken out by the BFG millions of years ago. And the Leviathans were never dependent on the relays, as they predated them. (Note though, that they were all defeated by the Reapers anyway) But humans? They get curious about Andromeda and BOOM!!!! New ftl drive that was essentially a perpetual motion device that can get them there no problem!
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 27, 2020 23:17:43 GMT
Go home sirpetrakus. Your mom is calling. So it is a thousand years after ME3, through the Andromeda Initiative. You could just say yes. Yes is a word. It exists. People use it. You don't have to be antagonistic all the time.
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Post by helios969 on Jul 1, 2020 9:31:07 GMT
As for the AI just leaving the galaxy, it would be impossible for the reapers to establish an impenetrable net around the entire galactic horizon, and the chances of running into the reaper swarm after exiting a specific point in the galaxy would be infinitesimal. Yeah, I would go even further that the races should have been able to evade the Reapers indefinitely. Fleets could have dispersed, stopped using the relay network, colonized more obscure worlds in the Traverse, and begin anew. Sure, civilization as it was known up to the Reapers arriving was over but I don't believe for a second the Reapers could have scanned every potentially habitable world in the MW...hell the next cycle might begin by the time they accomplished that feat. As a contingency the races could have had some adapt to the Quarian way of life and disperse others on small settlements within worlds the Reapers found too primitive to harvest. That's what I would have done as any of the leaders to ensure at least some survival of my species.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jul 5, 2020 17:23:36 GMT
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 5, 2020 22:34:48 GMT
If I were Bioware, I would be a fool not to take advantage of that.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 7, 2020 2:41:41 GMT
As for the AI just leaving the galaxy, it would be impossible for the reapers to establish an impenetrable net around the entire galactic horizon, and the chances of running into the reaper swarm after exiting a specific point in the galaxy would be infinitesimal. Yeah, I would go even further that the races should have been able to evade the Reapers indefinitely. Fleets could have dispersed, stopped using the relay network, colonized more obscure worlds in the Traverse, and begin anew. Sure, civilization as it was known up to the Reapers arriving was over but I don't believe for a second the Reapers could have scanned every potentially habitable world in the MW...hell the next cycle might begin by the time they accomplished that feat. As a contingency the races could have had some adapt to the Quarian way of life and disperse others on small settlements within worlds the Reapers found too primitive to harvest. That's what I would have done as any of the leaders to ensure at least some survival of my species. At some point we just have to accept that the Reapers really can keep the whole galaxy under effective surveillance or check out of the series. I'm not sure it's all that hard for the Reapers to scan every MW system. Humans were able to build autonomous FTL-capable drones before the FCW. How many of those could the Reapers make in a few hundred years? (We don't even need to get into von Neumann probes.)
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 7, 2020 3:22:22 GMT
Yeah, I would go even further that the races should have been able to evade the Reapers indefinitely. Fleets could have dispersed, stopped using the relay network, colonized more obscure worlds in the Traverse, and begin anew. Sure, civilization as it was known up to the Reapers arriving was over but I don't believe for a second the Reapers could have scanned every potentially habitable world in the MW...hell the next cycle might begin by the time they accomplished that feat. As a contingency the races could have had some adapt to the Quarian way of life and disperse others on small settlements within worlds the Reapers found too primitive to harvest. That's what I would have done as any of the leaders to ensure at least some survival of my species. At some point we just have to accept that the Reapers really can keep the whole galaxy under effective surveillance or check out of the series. I'm not sure it's all that hard for the Reapers to scan every MW system. Humans were able to build autonomous FTL-capable drones before the FCW. How many of those could the Reapers make in a few hundred years? (We don't even need to get into von Neumann probes.) Its been ages since I played ME1, but didn't the game say they went system by system tracking down all the ships and leaving only the breadcrumbs they wanted. Its why Ilos never made sense to me for if the Reapers go system by system to purge life then they would have found Ilos. For again I think the game said they spent hundreds of years tracking everyone down.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 7, 2020 11:07:53 GMT
At some point we just have to accept that the Reapers really can keep the whole galaxy under effective surveillance or check out of the series. I'm not sure it's all that hard for the Reapers to scan every MW system. Humans were able to build autonomous FTL-capable drones before the FCW. How many of those could the Reapers make in a few hundred years? (We don't even need to get into von Neumann probes.) Its been ages since I played ME1, but didn't the game say they went system by system tracking down all the ships and leaving only the breadcrumbs they wanted. Its why Ilos never made sense to me for if the Reapers go system by system to purge life then they would have found Ilos. For again I think the game said they spent hundreds of years tracking everyone down. I think that th efact they cutooff communication swithothers i show they manageed t oevade them . I think the relays effectively can act as comm buoy sas well and I thin kthe Reapers use this to track down anyone who tries to run or hide. But yeah I think they do as I think the ycan use the relays to scan eac hsystem within a cluster bu the fact that they disabled comms on Ilos combined withthe fac tthat the records weer destroyed in the initial attack on the Citadel is what allowed those Protheans t oevade them. I suspec tth efac tthatthey went int ocryogenic stasis and th efact thatVigil probabl ywent into a form of standby/lowpower mode is what kept them from showing up.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jul 8, 2020 8:15:28 GMT
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 8, 2020 12:17:58 GMT
That is just dismissing the one Reddit post, but I don't think anyone has outright dismissed the VentureBeat article, but there is so little to go on its just a guess. This is all they said at the very end of the article. No timeframe, just claiming that the unannounced HD Remaster in EA's last financial update was going to be a Mass Effect remaster and they didn't even bother to claim "reliable sources told us".
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 8, 2020 13:26:41 GMT
At some point we just have to accept that the Reapers really can keep the whole galaxy under effective surveillance or check out of the series. I'm not sure it's all that hard for the Reapers to scan every MW system. Humans were able to build autonomous FTL-capable drones before the FCW. How many of those could the Reapers make in a few hundred years? (We don't even need to get into von Neumann probes.) Its been ages since I played ME1, but didn't the game say they went system by system tracking down all the ships and leaving only the breadcrumbs they wanted. Its why Ilos never made sense to me for if the Reapers go system by system to purge life then they would have found Ilos. For again I think the game said they spent hundreds of years tracking everyone down. We wouldn’t even need Ilos to poke holes in the thoroughness of the reapers. The beacons themselves are enough. The beacons that clearly have horrible warnings of the reaper invasion, but for some reason the reapers just decided to leave them intact. Heck, why didn’t Saren just pick the thing up and take it off of Eden Prime, just in case? Is it made of dark matter? Well, it was moved from where it was found, so I guess it can’t be that heavy. Oh man, it just keeps getting worse.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 9, 2020 1:05:59 GMT
At some point you have to just go with it.
A lot of popular culture seems to work on the Wile E. Coyote principle -- it's only after you look down and see that you've run over the edge of the cliff that you fall. As long as you don't look, you're fine.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 9, 2020 20:15:13 GMT
Its been ages since I played ME1, but didn't the game say they went system by system tracking down all the ships and leaving only the breadcrumbs they wanted. Its why Ilos never made sense to me for if the Reapers go system by system to purge life then they would have found Ilos. For again I think the game said they spent hundreds of years tracking everyone down. We wouldn’t even need Ilos to poke holes in the thoroughness of the reapers. The beacons themselves are enough. The beacons that clearly have horrible warnings of the reaper invasion, but for some reason the reapers just decided to leave them intact. Heck, why didn’t Saren just pick the thing up and take it off of Eden Prime, just in case? Is it made of dark matter? Well, it was moved from where it was found, so I guess it can’t be that heavy. Oh man, it just keeps getting worse. Well, the beacons didn't have warnings about the reapers in them at the time of the invasion. According to Vigil, the Illos scientists only sent the messages out after the reapers were gone again already. The timeline is a bit fuzzy though because he also said that they sent the messages in a format only organic beings could understand because at the time they sent it, they didn't understand the dangers of indoctrination yet. That would be weird because Vigil knows that indoctrinated servants were used during the reaper purge of the protheans. So it's a bit of a paradox.
I mean, not that this little fact suddenly makes the scenario entirely plausible in the first place but just wanted to point out that those warnings would not have been a concern for the reapers during the prothean cycle yet.
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ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Jul 10, 2020 0:04:43 GMT
We wouldn’t even need Ilos to poke holes in the thoroughness of the reapers. The beacons themselves are enough. The beacons that clearly have horrible warnings of the reaper invasion, but for some reason the reapers just decided to leave them intact. Heck, why didn’t Saren just pick the thing up and take it off of Eden Prime, just in case? Is it made of dark matter? Well, it was moved from where it was found, so I guess it can’t be that heavy. Oh man, it just keeps getting worse. Well, the beacons didn't have warnings about the reapers in them at the time of the invasion. According to Vigil, the Illos scientists only sent the messages out after the reapers were gone again already. The timeline is a bit fuzzy though because he also said that they sent the messages in a format only organic beings could understand because at the time they sent it, they didn't understand the dangers of indoctrination yet. That would be weird because Vigil knows that indoctrinated servants were used during the reaper purge of the protheans. So it's a bit of a paradox.
I mean, not that this little fact suddenly makes the scenario entirely plausible in the first place but just wanted to point out that those warnings would not have been a concern for the reapers during the prothean cycle yet.
I am not even sure it needs that level of protection though. The Reapers were insanely powerful but it was never implied they were all knowing. It doesn't matter how thorough you are some shit on a literally galactic scale will slip through the cracks.
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Fortifying everything.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 10, 2020 0:36:26 GMT
Well, the beacons didn't have warnings about the reapers in them at the time of the invasion. According to Vigil, the Illos scientists only sent the messages out after the reapers were gone again already. The timeline is a bit fuzzy though because he also said that they sent the messages in a format only organic beings could understand because at the time they sent it, they didn't understand the dangers of indoctrination yet. That would be weird because Vigil knows that indoctrinated servants were used during the reaper purge of the protheans. So it's a bit of a paradox.
I mean, not that this little fact suddenly makes the scenario entirely plausible in the first place but just wanted to point out that those warnings would not have been a concern for the reapers during the prothean cycle yet.
I am not even sure it needs that level of protection though. The Reapers were insanely powerful but it was never implied they were all knowing. It doesn't matter how thorough you are some shit on a literally galactic scale will slip through the cracks. Actually, the Reapers are weak.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 10, 2020 9:56:26 GMT
Well, the beacons didn't have warnings about the reapers in them at the time of the invasion. According to Vigil, the Illos scientists only sent the messages out after the reapers were gone again already. The timeline is a bit fuzzy though because he also said that they sent the messages in a format only organic beings could understand because at the time they sent it, they didn't understand the dangers of indoctrination yet. That would be weird because Vigil knows that indoctrinated servants were used during the reaper purge of the protheans. So it's a bit of a paradox.
I mean, not that this little fact suddenly makes the scenario entirely plausible in the first place but just wanted to point out that those warnings would not have been a concern for the reapers during the prothean cycle yet.
I am not even sure it needs that level of protection though. The Reapers were insanely powerful but it was never implied they were all knowing. It doesn't matter how thorough you are some shit on a literally galactic scale will slip through the cracks. It does make the sheer scale of time this has been going on much more difficult to buy into, though. Like, if the reapers have been at it for as long as the story seems to suggest, they should have failed a long time ago, what with as much as what evaded them in even a single cycle. Heck, in a single cycle, the remnants of a civilization managed to not only successfully hide from them, but also sabotage their entire trap and successfully convey a warning to the following cycle. If that can happen, a lot more would have happened over a much broader span of time.
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