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Post by Sartoz on May 11, 2020 12:24:33 GMT
Another "EA bad" thread? Can't really say it is nice to see some things never change... Good...? Bad...? I'm stealing that emoji. (oooo.... )
Me too.... LOL
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Post by githcheater on May 12, 2020 1:37:04 GMT
snip
My point is that EA probably did not create a suitable atmosphere to help Bioware succeed. Bioware never knows whether the work they are performing will be scrapped by a EA enforced reboot. For example DA2 Exodus got scrapped to implement Frostbyte for DAI, and Joplin got scrapped to implement live service. I would imagine it would be difficult to work for EA with its old "command and control" management style and inconsistent direction.
snip
snip The problem I have with a lot of this kind of thinking is we don't know everything, its all jumping to conclusions with what the internet articles claim to be an accurate description of the facts. I think a lot of BioWare's problems with Andromeda and Anthem were self inflicted more with Andromeda then Anthem. When I talk about jumping to conclusions its things like your comment about Dragon Age 2: Exodus. Yes it was cancelled and yes they moved to Frostbite, but if they did what some on this board say BioWare should have done by going to Unreal Engine would the outcome have been any different? So if they weren't going to Frostbite would it have been EA's fault or BioWare's fault? snip My hypothesis has more to do with EA's history of moving goalposts and diverting resources. Perhaps things will be different this time for DA4, as Bioware Edmonton no longer has other projects that would significantly interfere with DA4 development. Also, one can reasonably assume that there will not be another reboot of Dragon Age. Hopefully Bioware Edmonton can now follow their "gantt chart" witout fear of EA upsetting the apple cart.
Perhaps Bioware using the existing Frostbye Anthem code rather than developing from older DAI code will help make DA4 development easier with less unforeseen delays. In addition, I am hoping EA's investment in the move from the old 60,000 square foot office to 75,000 square feet (**) in EPCOR Tower, signifies a shift of EA thinking from short term to long term. ... (**) bomaedm.ca/posts/view/downtown-businesses-excited-to-welcome-bioware-to-epcor-tower
However, my main concern is how live service will be implemented. Will EA be able to strike a balance between short term shareholder demands and long term customer RPG wants?
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on May 12, 2020 3:55:02 GMT
snip The problem I have with a lot of this kind of thinking is we don't know everything, its all jumping to conclusions with what the internet articles claim to be an accurate description of the facts. I think a lot of BioWare's problems with Andromeda and Anthem were self inflicted more with Andromeda then Anthem. When I talk about jumping to conclusions its things like your comment about Dragon Age 2: Exodus. Yes it was cancelled and yes they moved to Frostbite, but if they did what some on this board say BioWare should have done by going to Unreal Engine would the outcome have been any different? So if they weren't going to Frostbite would it have been EA's fault or BioWare's fault? snip My hypothesis has more to do with EA's history of moving goalposts and diverting resources. Perhaps things will be different this time for DA4, as Bioware Edmonton no longer has other projects that would significantly interfere with DA4 development. Also, one can reasonably assume that there will not be another reboot of Dragon Age. Hopefully Bioware Edmonton can now follow their "gantt chart" witout fear of EA upsetting the apple cart.
Perhaps Bioware using the existing Frostbye Anthem code rather than developing from older DAI code will help make DA4 development easier with less unforeseen delays. In addition, I am hoping EA's investment in the move from the old 60,000 square foot office to 75,000 square feet (**) in EPCOR Tower, signifies a shift of EA thinking from short term to long term. ... (**) bomaedm.ca/posts/view/downtown-businesses-excited-to-welcome-bioware-to-epcor-tower
However, my main concern is how live service will be implemented. Will EA be able to strike a balance between short term shareholder demands and long term customer RPG wants?
With Frostbite I think the problems with Inquisition was that it was their first game with the engine and then Anthem seemed to do much better with the little I played of it and the parts that were rough were the online aspects. If what I read about Andromeda is remotely close to the truth it had more issues then just Frostbite itself causing problems with Frostbite for to me it had more problems then Inquisition which was released before it. My opinion is that the issues with Frostbite are mostly BioWare based just because you don't seem the same level of issues with the other EA games that use the engine. So maybe it was just BioWare being too ambitious for their own good with a new and unknown to them game engine and it took them a lot longer to get a solid base beneath them. I will admit I was excite to hear of a new BioWare IP when they first started talking about Anthem, but maybe they were just doing too much for the size and design of their studio structure. It will always be guesses and rumors on my part for those are the things that don't make it to the public. I guess I am just not as concerned with the live service elements for I have always thought BioWare has done a good job of it so far compared to what I see elsewhere. I only played a little of Anthem because my fears of a game that is mostly FPS were true (so no Bloodlines 2 or Cyberpunk for me), but on paper they sounded fine. Even though games and studios have a track record, I try to remain open minded and base my opinions on the game itself because things change and holding prior experiences against it would at least me not giving the project a fair shake.
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Post by colfoley on May 12, 2020 7:11:04 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Since EA has bought BioWare their resources and quality has increased dramatically, by and large, other than the opposite. The weakest games in their respective franchises was Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age Origins, for me, with each game being of higher quality. Though 3 was lesser then 2...make of that what you will.
Though it does bear keeping in mind that overall their two weakest games that I have played since they were bought was Anthem and TOR which suggests they have a multiplayer problem...but as far as their SP properties is concerned EA has done nothing but good for them (also as an aside the only reason I am even here in the first place is because EA bought BioWare).
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Post by Little Bengel on May 12, 2020 11:49:18 GMT
Colfoley does have a point. Anthem points to the possibility of Bioware (the Edmonton team, at least) having a problem with fully online games. Although DA4's (eventual, far-off ) release and reception, depending on how its MP/online portion is handled, will provide better context. In fact, many of the problems we could point to regarding Bioware (particularly the troubles of Andromeda and Anthem's development), and whether or not they're improving from that point, will likely be better contextualized when DA4 drops. Personally, I think are in a good spot to improve. But ultimately, it is DA4 that will be the judge of that.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on May 12, 2020 12:44:28 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Since EA has bought BioWare their resources and quality has increased dramatically, by and large, other than the opposite. The weakest games in their respective franchises was Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age Origins, for me, with each game being of higher quality. Though 3 was lesser then 2...make of that what you will. Though it does bear keeping in mind that overall their two weakest games that I have played since they were bought was Anthem and TOR which suggests they have a multiplayer problem...but as far as their SP properties is concerned EA has done nothing but good for them (also as an aside the only reason I am even here in the first place is because EA bought BioWare). I agree with your line of thinking, but I also think a lot of rookie mistakes were made with Andromeda which makes sense because it was made by a rookie studio with a lot of industry rookies. Out of the two online games I think The Old Republic was the better product because it made better use of BioWare's strengths for where The Old Republic really had issues after the first month is the lack of endgame content which makes sense from a developer that has only made single player games. The lack of knowledge of endgame and having all those different story campaigns to get to max level show making a single player game instead of a MMO just with community areas. Anthem was full of technical hurdles in a genre that didn't fit BioWare's strengths, the looter shooter has always been light on story from the ones I have played and I would say Anthem is better in the story area, but they failed to overcome the monotony that is the end game there as well. Keep running the same content over and over hoping for better loot so you can continue to run the same old content for better loot. That is the gameplay of any of these looter-shooter genres. Looking at what believe has happened I think the problems relate to burnout. BioWare developers want to make something different then Mass Effect or Dragon Age because that is what they have done, but there really isn't another genre that fits into their strengths as a studio. Bungie fit well into Destiny because its just a MMO Halo and that is what people expect, Division is just any of the other Tom Clancy games by Ubisoft, but always connected and that is what people expected. With BioWare people want a good story game and I am not sure what genre they can go towards that would be a strong fit for that strength. With all that said I am looking forward to Dragon Age 4 and seeing what they do. I think too many people are jumping to conclusions at this point because we don't know what is in the game or not and even with things like "live services'" BioWare has said in the past that even Dragon Age: Origins qualified for that moniker. So I am not concerned until I see the final product and then I can voice what I don't like because there will be hard evidence to what is wrong. I would be as you pointed out more skeptical of an always online type of game, but that is because I am not sure how well it fits within BioWare's strengths as a studio, but then again I would also be highly skeptical of a flight sim or real-time strategy game made by BioWare for the very same reasons.
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Post by Frost on May 12, 2020 13:39:03 GMT
Looking at what believe has happened I think the problems relate to burnout. BioWare developers want to make something different then Mass Effect or Dragon Age because that is what they have done, but there really isn't another genre that fits into their strengths as a studio. Bungie fit well into Destiny because its just a MMO Halo and that is what people expect, Division is just any of the other Tom Clancy games by Ubisoft, but always connected and that is what people expected. With BioWare people want a good story game and I am not sure what genre they can go towards that would be a strong fit for that strength. I agree that Bioware hasn't been building on their strengths when they try to create a game around procedurally generated planets or make a looter shooter. Also, they don't have enough dev teams to work on both rpgs and games in different genres. So when they worked on Anthem, it meant DA4 didn't have enough devs.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on May 12, 2020 13:46:12 GMT
Looking at what believe has happened I think the problems relate to burnout. BioWare developers want to make something different then Mass Effect or Dragon Age because that is what they have done, but there really isn't another genre that fits into their strengths as a studio. Bungie fit well into Destiny because its just a MMO Halo and that is what people expect, Division is just any of the other Tom Clancy games by Ubisoft, but always connected and that is what people expected. With BioWare people want a good story game and I am not sure what genre they can go towards that would be a strong fit for that strength. I agree that Bioware hasn't been building on their strengths when they try to create a game around procedurally generated planets or make a looter shooter. Also, they don't have enough dev teams to work on both rpgs and games in different genres. So when they worked on Anthem, it meant DA4 didn't have enough devs. Then maybe its a good thing they decided to start over with Dragon Age 4 so it has their complete focus as a studio.
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Post by operationathena on May 12, 2020 22:29:54 GMT
When EA first acquired Bioware? Everything seemed great with DA:O, Awakening, ME2, even ME3 for the most part. But lately? I just . . . I don't know. If we could get that 2010-era Bioware back I'd love it. But that was a decade ago. I only pray Anthem was a fluke and not an indicator of the future.
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 13, 2020 0:51:47 GMT
When EA first acquired Bioware? Everything seemed great with DA:O, Awakening, ME2, even ME3 for the most part. But lately? I just . . . I don't know. If we could get that 2010-era Bioware back I'd love it. But that was a decade ago. I only pray Anthem was a fluke and not an indicator of the future. Casey Hudson is back. If he can't set Bioware straight then no one can.
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Post by biggydx on May 13, 2020 4:58:30 GMT
I think the online aspect of their games is kinda hit-or-miss honestly, as the bigger the scope, the more likely they are to fail on more fronts. Mass Effect 3 MP was lightning in a bottle for them, while Dragon Age: Multiplayer didn't garner anywhere near the same traction; though I thought the kits in that game were much more unique. I've come to find that, while BioWare has done a pretty good job in making characters in these online modes fairly distinct, it's the execution of the activities that they continue to struggle with. This, along with technical issues seem to be a common occurrence.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Post by Sanunes on May 13, 2020 5:59:48 GMT
When EA first acquired Bioware? Everything seemed great with DA:O, Awakening, ME2, even ME3 for the most part. But lately? I just . . . I don't know. If we could get that 2010-era Bioware back I'd love it. But that was a decade ago. I only pray Anthem was a fluke and not an indicator of the future. To go backwards like that would require player's to move to that direction and from my experience with crowdfunding and some of the comments from developers on the issue player tastes of changed and they cannot go back for that isn't where they audience is. Josh Sawyer has said in his blog that for there to be a Pillars of Eternity 3 they probably would "have to go back and re-examine the format of the game" because of how Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire did and they have no idea why it went that way. I think BioWare has shown they are going to shift with the industry back with Mass Effect 1 when they moved from being more of a RPG style game maker to the Action RPG market. For players were shifting to more action based games. Now the shift has been the perceived value players have with games, they want a $60 game to last hundreds of hours or more even if the core quality of the game is diminished that is what players seem to show they want. I can see elements of Anthem moving forward into other ideas incorporated into future titles because those elements are what players are focusing on now, but after making The Old Republic as maligned as it was its still active at BioWare Austin but they didn't continue to chase that specific trend either. That is what I think will happen to Anthem, they will house the game somewhere with minor updates as long as there is a playerbase for it. Just like how Ubisoft is still trying to fix The Division 2 which they have bungled from the start. Josh Sawyer's Blog
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on May 13, 2020 6:01:57 GMT
I think the online aspect of their games is kinda hit-or-miss honestly, as the bigger the scope, the more likely they are to fail on more fronts. Mass Effect 3 MP was lightning in a bottle for them, while Dragon Age: Multiplayer didn't garner anywhere near the same traction; though I thought the kits in that game were much more unique. I've come to find that, while BioWare has done a pretty good job in making characters in these online modes fairly distinct, it's the execution of the activities that they continue to struggle with. This, along with technical issues seem to be a common occurrence. I think Andromeda was a return to what Mass Effect 3 was, they just made mistakes with unlocks and definitely improved technically to where Mass Effect 3 started and ended. Dragon Age: Inquisition was problematic for a MP game to begin with since I don't think people played those games for the combat and that was one of the more disliked aspects of the game itself. Anthem was well Anthem.
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Post by Sartoz on May 13, 2020 9:58:06 GMT
I think the online aspect of their games is kinda hit-or-miss honestly, as the bigger the scope, the more likely they are to fail on more fronts. Mass Effect 3 MP was lightning in a bottle for them, while Dragon Age: Multiplayer didn't garner anywhere near the same traction; though I thought the kits in that game were much more unique. I've come to find that, while BioWare has done a pretty good job in making characters in these online modes fairly distinct, it's the execution of the activities that they continue to struggle with. This, along with technical issues seem to be a common occurrence. I think Andromeda was a return to what Mass Effect 3 was, they just made mistakes with unlocks and definitely improved technically to where Mass Effect 3 started and ended. Dragon Age: Inquisition was problematic for a MP game to begin with since I don't think people played those games for the combat and that was one of the more disliked aspects of the game itself. Anthem was well Anthem.
Exactly. DAIMP as designed sucks dry tits. As far as I know, it failed to catch on. I tried it and gave up. I was playing ME3MP then. That's like driving on a pristine smooth new paved road vs driving over frequent potholes.
DA4MP will also be the pits unless the combat mechanics are significantly changed to suit the MP co-op game.... and that means the main game will be affected too.
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on May 13, 2020 10:55:24 GMT
I don't think the idea of "friend or foe" applies to the relationship between EA and BioWare - it's more like master and minions. And given BioWare's recent releases and their development troubles, the master has actually been pretty darn lenient.
Between MEA and Anthem, BioWare has effectively wasted several years worth of development time, for an entire studio mind you, without producing any tangible results. Especially with Anthem, developed between 2012 and 2019, BioWare was pottering about aimlessly until 2017 and then made a barebones game in one monster crunch time that bombed spectacularly. For years, EA paid an entire studio for basically no return of investment.
Sure, EA is not blameless given how low they prioritized BioWare's access to Frostbite Engine expertise, but the practically non-existant project leadership and the resulting consequences are all on BioWare.
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Post by FireAndBlood on May 13, 2020 14:01:21 GMT
Everything we’ve heard about the behind the scenes events tells us that EA takes a very hands off approach in regards to BioWare, I actually think EA needs to be more involved, not actually taking over creatively but instead send in a producer to watch over development and keep an objective view of the game.
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Post by Frost on May 14, 2020 0:04:08 GMT
Everything we’ve heard about the behind the scenes events tells us that EA takes a very hands off approach in regards to BioWare, I actually think EA needs to be more involved, not actually taking over creatively but instead send in a producer to watch over development and keep an objective view of the game. Hands off as long as the games they fund have multiplayer, microtransactions, and a plan to make as much money as EA's sports games. Whatever Bioware's own problems are, I don't think more EA involvement would help in any way.
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Post by githcheater on May 14, 2020 2:23:39 GMT
Sure, EA is not blameless given how low they prioritized BioWare's access to Frostbite Engine expertise,
FIFA yanked DICE support from Bioware ...
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ApocAlypsE
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Post by ApocAlypsE on May 14, 2020 10:50:12 GMT
If EA caters to their shareholders rather than anyone else, it's about time I become a shareholder. Hopefully EA will treat me better as a shareholder than as a gamer, if anything a good EA play presentation might actually help me here.
Anyway, if Bioware could just forego using Frostbite altogether and use UE4 instead for example, maybe we could have better games than some hacked together pieces of crap (mainly referring to ME:A and Anthem, I loved Inquisition with all its flaws).
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on May 14, 2020 12:10:35 GMT
If EA caters to their shareholders rather than anyone else, it's about time I become a shareholder. Hopefully EA will treat me better as a shareholder than as a gamer, if anything a good EA play presentation might actually help me here. Anyway, if Bioware could just forego using Frostbite altogether and use UE4 instead for example, maybe we could have better games than some hacked together pieces of crap (mainly referring to ME:A and Anthem, I loved Inquisition with all its flaws).
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Spirit talker
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Dec 11, 2024 21:50:29 GMT
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Giant Ambush Beetle
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August 2016
giantambushbeetle
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on May 14, 2020 12:14:51 GMT
A necessary evil.
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ApocAlypsE
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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ApocAlypsE
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August 2016
apocalypse
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ApocAlypsE on May 14, 2020 17:12:12 GMT
If EA caters to their shareholders rather than anyone else, it's about time I become a shareholder. Hopefully EA will treat me better as a shareholder than as a gamer, if anything a good EA play presentation might actually help me here. Anyway, if Bioware could just forego using Frostbite altogether and use UE4 instead for example, maybe we could have better games than some hacked together pieces of crap (mainly referring to ME:A and Anthem, I loved Inquisition with all its flaws).
Ye I saw this one prior to writing my comment. I'm erring on the safer side with UE4 being more familiar. It's beautiful, but it's a tech demo and highly polished to make it insane-looking. I doubt any game will come close to that graphical level.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
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Jun 22, 2021 18:16:33 GMT
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Highwayman667
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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May 2020
highwayman667
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 14, 2020 20:51:50 GMT
The publisher we deserve... not the one we need.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
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Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on May 15, 2020 3:10:54 GMT
If EA caters to their shareholders rather than anyone else, it's about time I become a shareholder. Hopefully EA will treat me better as a shareholder than as a gamer, if anything a good EA play presentation might actually help me here. Anyway, if Bioware could just forego using Frostbite altogether and use UE4 instead for example, maybe we could have better games than some hacked together pieces of crap (mainly referring to ME:A and Anthem, I loved Inquisition with all its flaws).
Just because of those are tech demos doesn't mean any game will be able to fully capture what is demonstrated nor a developer like BioWare would choose to make their look like those demos or even choose those options. My opinion even if they were to switch engine they would run full tilt into any of the issues the engine has just like what happened with Respawn and Unreal 4. Until games actually start using that engine then we can see what it is really capable of for right now its no better then an E3 presentation of an upcoming video game. Cherry picked to show off the best aspects.
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biggydx
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Apr 17, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
April 2017
biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
BiggyMD
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Post by biggydx on May 16, 2020 0:46:41 GMT
Everything we’ve heard about the behind the scenes events tells us that EA takes a very hands off approach in regards to BioWare, I actually think EA needs to be more involved, not actually taking over creatively but instead send in a producer to watch over development and keep an objective view of the game. I actually pondered on this after Schreier released the Anthem article. No doubt, EA has had a tangible hand in their AAA games MUST having an online/live service component, but everything else largely stems from the studio itself. Though I'd still prefer EA be hands off, I wonder how ME:A and Anthem would have turned out if someone from on-high came in at year two to see how conceptualization (for both projects) was going. I feel like, in a situation like this, you'd probably want to also ask the developers who aren't in a managerial position as well (and under anonymity - of course) to gauge how they feel as well.
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