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Post by Nightscrawl on May 23, 2020 20:57:40 GMT
That could just as easily be directed to what fans are wanting of the game and not just EA. This is how I took it. Every player wants something different, many of which are opposing visions for the game. They cannot accommodate everyone's preference for characters, story, plot, mechanics.
[edit] Plus, everyone is going to be acting like they had seven years to develop this game when in fact they were hampered by staff moving over to Anthem, a reboot, and now Covid.
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Post by FireAndBlood on May 24, 2020 0:43:52 GMT
The following tweet mentioned by Hunger in mid-May concerns me: "Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrah Trapped in a prison of other people’s expectations" Does EA specifically know what it wants from DA4? Obviously EA wants "live service" and a long time tail on a revenue stream. However, has EA offered Bioware any guidance? My concern is that Bioware is blindly making a single player game that Bioware "can be proud of", while EA is ranting "live service" on the sidelines. Somehow, I doubt that single player with tacked on story DLC will be enough for EA. I suppose cosmetic microtransactions might be acceptable, but "pay to win" loot microtransactions seems dodgy to me. I play DAI multiplayer weekly, but I do not pay for any microtransactions. I cannot imagine spending any additional money after release beyond story DLC. Can EA and Bioware dream up and agree upon a viable "live service" revenue stream? That could just as easily be directed to what fans are wanting of the game and not just EA. They know what EA wants from the very start since what EA expects of BioWare is done during the pitch meeting, but fans have laundry lists of things that can be incompatible with each other or so complicated that other areas of the game would need to be sacrificed. So don't always think that EA is always the bad guy, it could just as easily be us. I still think it’s tea related.
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Post by colfoley on May 24, 2020 1:22:14 GMT
True, but it's not difficult to agree on a set of a criteria for what makes a good game and run with it Ahahaha. I think you will find it is actually quite difficult. At the very least, I think I can pretty much guarantee that you and I would never agree on a set of criteria. My favourite games of all time have next to nothing in common with Witcher 3. I like Witcher 3 overall, (at least I like what I played, since I have never finished it), but I have my criticisms, and the constant comparison of Dragon Age to Witcher 3 and BioWare to CDPR on this forum is incredibly boring and annoying, and sort of concerning, in that it seems like most of this forum haven't played anything else since 2015. Besides which, why do all games need to be like Witcher 3? Personally, when I'm in the mood for a game like Witcher 3, I boot up... Witcher 3. honestly sometimes it seems like I've played very little new since 2015 either.
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Post by cloud9 on May 27, 2020 6:41:51 GMT
It is true thoug hanyone who visit'these forums can see it. I know I certainly have. But yes the Witcher games aren' tbad but I think i tdepends moer on wha tyou lik eas the Witcher and DA aer 2 entierl ydifferent franchises. In DA fo rexample ypo uwander around with a team backing you up wheras Geral ton the other hand fo rthe most part does everything on his own. So there aer differences it's just dependen ton what you like whilst I thimk both series have merits I personally prefer DA I like both, and am happy that there are significant differences, but I think they have enough in common to compare. Most RPGs have a similar base structure- there’s a main quest (which accounts for a relatively small amount of total time), a world to explore, people to meet, side quests to do if you want, items and upgrades to find and/or craft, etc. Having companions is probably the biggest core difference, although Geralt did have a circle of friends and quests tied to them, which isn’t completely unlike companion quests, with the full range of interactions of course. I think it’s perfectly fine to say if one game did certain things better than another, as long as you’re not too much of a dick about it. It wouldn’t surprise me if some people took it too far, nor would it surprise me if that wasn’t entirely one sided either. But that wasn’t really my main point anyway. Which was that even if I didn’t enjoy the Witcher 3 at all, I’d still be happy it was so successful. Because it shows that a big budget single player RPG can be both massive a critical and commercial success without relying on multiplayer and with no loot box nonsense. That’s what BioWare were famed for, and what I believe what most of their fans still want them to do. But I think it also means that the bar has been raised a bit. If they want DA4 to be successful, I doubt they can get away with filling the game with anything that feels like repetitive busywork. Things like closing rifts, collecting shards, etc. probably won’t go down well if they try that again. IMO it would be better to have less stuff, and make what they do have feel more meaningful. Agreed.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on May 27, 2020 13:11:16 GMT
It is true thoug hanyone who visit'these forums can see it. I know I certainly have. But yes the Witcher games aren' tbad but I think i tdepends moer on wha tyou lik eas the Witcher and DA aer 2 entierl ydifferent franchises. In DA fo rexample ypo uwander around with a team backing you up wheras Geral ton the other hand fo rthe most part does everything on his own. So there aer differences it's just dependen ton what you like whilst I thimk both series have merits I personally prefer DA I like both, and am happy that there are significant differences, but I think they have enough in common to compare. Most RPGs have a similar base structure- there’s a main quest (which accounts for a relatively small amount of total time), a world to explore, people to meet, side quests to do if you want, items and upgrades to find and/or craft, etc. Having companions is probably the biggest core difference, although Geralt did have a circle of friends and quests tied to them, which isn’t completely unlike companion quests, with the full range of interactions of course. I think it’s perfectly fine to say if one game did certain things better than another, as long as you’re not too much of a dick about it. It wouldn’t surprise me if some people took it too far, nor would it surprise me if that wasn’t entirely one sided either. But that wasn’t really my main point anyway. Which was that even if I didn’t enjoy the Witcher 3 at all, I’d still be happy it was so successful. Because it shows that a big budget single player RPG can be both massive a critical and commercial success without relying on multiplayer and with no loot box nonsense. That’s what BioWare were famed for, and what I believe what most of their fans still want them to do. But I think it also means that the bar has been raised a bit. If they want DA4 to be successful, I doubt they can get away with filling the game with anything that feels like repetitive busywork. Things like closing rifts, collecting shards, etc. probably won’t go down well if they try that again. IMO it would be better to have less stuff, and make what they do have feel more meaningful. I just want to touch on your last paragraph. I do agree that busywork is probably a bad thing (which is why I dislike open world games), but at the same time it would require BioWare to try and make a game that they aren't aiming to please everyone which is a trend I have seen ever since EA came into the picture when they got a bigger budget. With Inquisition it was the design approach to make a game that one developer said you could complete in 20 hours or 100 hours so that to me meant 80 hours of busywork for you cannot have both. Even with Andromeda I think it was one of core design issues where they again stated publicly that they wanted the exploration of ME1, characters of ME2, and combat of ME3. That was just a lot to take on with a new team on a new engine. Just to be clear as well I am not blaming the people for asking for those things, but that player expectations cannot be met and hard decisions need to be made to make a good game. It echoes the one tweet referenced here about pleasing everyone. Its just not possible because you would need to be able to make multiple games on top of one another and not make the others feel like they are missing out.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jun 1, 2020 2:43:03 GMT
It will be interesting to see how CD Project does making a game that doesn't already have a wealth of pre-written lore and characters. I haven't exactly been blown away by Cyberpunk so far.
They may be making a common marketing mistake.... over hyping their product.
Be as it may, creating a new world gives them room to develop stories while previous lore can constrict.
It's a more fundamental problem than marketing. You're making a mainstream game that was from a niche product, based on a very 1980s outlook on excess and vice that sort of glorified cynicism as a virtue. In 2020, that type of niche appeal, ironically in AAA title, is a pretty tough sell, and I'm already worried that the emphasis on celebs like Reeves and the real surface elements of the worlds character will be its undoing because it feels hollow and frankly shallow instead of being rightfully counterculture.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 1, 2020 2:56:09 GMT
They may be making a common marketing mistake.... over hyping their product.
Be as it may, creating a new world gives them room to develop stories while previous lore can constrict.
It's a more fundamental problem than marketing. You're making a mainstream game that was from a niche product, based on a very 1980s outlook on excess and vice that sort of glorified cynicism as a virtue. In 2020, that type of niche appeal, ironically in AAA title, is a pretty tough sell, and I'm already worried that the emphasis on celebs like Reeves and the real surface elements of the worlds character will be its undoing because it feels hollow and frankly shallow instead of being rightfully counterculture. Hahaha, that is ironic. Especially given what we now know about CDPR's work ethic of crunch culture and employee exploitation, things that "-punk" literature/philosophy should oppose.
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ApocAlypsE
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Jun 10, 2020 15:20:23 GMT
If EA caters to their shareholders rather than anyone else, it's about time I become a shareholder. Hopefully EA will treat me better as a shareholder than as a gamer, if anything a good EA play presentation might actually help me here. Anyway, if Bioware could just forego using Frostbite altogether and use UE4 instead for example, maybe we could have better games than some hacked together pieces of crap (mainly referring to ME:A and Anthem, I loved Inquisition with all its flaws). C&C remastered is a success! EA play in a week! Up we go with all the shares! Until all EA shows is Battlefield 12 and a bunch of sports games. But still up we go! Because shareholder don't understand anything in videogames, right?
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Post by xrayspex73 on Jun 10, 2020 15:54:00 GMT
Since there is no separation between Bioware and EA and they are basically the same entity... Rather than debate whether EA is friend or foe to Bioware, it is more relevant to discuss whether EA/Bioware is friend or foe to their customers.
I pick "foe"
They suck.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 11, 2020 12:20:30 GMT
Since there is no separation between Bioware and EA and they are basically the same entity... Rather than debate whether EA is friend or foe to Bioware, it is more relevant to discuss whether EA/Bioware is friend or foe to their customers. I pick "foe" They suck. Great, then again I am pretty sure I can give reasons why every developer out there sucks so at least BioWare isn't alone.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 11, 2020 13:16:30 GMT
I thought Mass Effect Andromeda had some pretty nasty moments. The voice recordings of live Salarians being cut open by Kett was pretty darn brutal to hear. I don't think any other Mass Effect game has depicted torture like that. The closest would be from Jack on Cronos, then killed by Shepard
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 12, 2020 2:54:36 GMT
Since there is no separation between Bioware and EA and they are basically the same entity... Rather than debate whether EA is friend or foe to Bioware, it is more relevant to discuss whether EA/Bioware is friend or foe to their customers. I pick "foe" They suck. Bioware is probably responsible for developing some of the best story-driven CRPG's ever made. They do not "suck". I think people with no talent nor determination to write or develop videogames are the ones who actually "suck". Criticisms however ? I think many can be thrown at EA or Bioware. That much is certain.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2020 3:07:54 GMT
Since there is no separation between Bioware and EA and they are basically the same entity... Rather than debate whether EA is friend or foe to Bioware, it is more relevant to discuss whether EA/Bioware is friend or foe to their customers. I pick "foe" They suck. Great, then again I am pretty sure I can give reasons why every developer out there sucks so at least BioWare isn't alone. At least EA seems to take criticisms to heart and try to improve themselves, unlike some of the other companies.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 12, 2020 3:34:35 GMT
Great, then again I am pretty sure I can give reasons why every developer out there sucks so at least BioWare isn't alone. At least EA seems to take criticisms to heart and try to improve themselves, unlike some of the other companies.
How so? It was named "the worst company in America" two years in a row, by the Consumerist.
let's take a look:
"We were guilty of some stuff," Moore acknowledged. EA's new ambition was to be a player first company.... and part of this player first model is to delay games when necessary to ensure quality.
Then Anthem was launched.
I rest my case.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 12, 2020 14:53:05 GMT
At least EA seems to take criticisms to heart and try to improve themselves, unlike some of the other companies.
How so? It was named "the worst company in America" two years in a row, by the Consumerist.
let's take a look:
"We were guilty of some stuff," Moore acknowledged. EA's new ambition was to be a player first company.... and part of this player first model is to delay games when necessary to ensure quality.
Then Anthem was launched.
I rest my case.
How does an online popularity vote mean anything, its not like Consumer Reports actually did anything to quantify those results. In fact EA is still around while The Consumerist is long gone and shutdown. Pretty poor case. Especially when EA has done plenty of actions to show their change such as not having things like lootboxes in two of their games including Jedi: Fallen Order. Anthem is being retooled to make a game players might want to play. Just because some online poll said something doesn't mean its the truth, I bet there are plenty of online polls where people claim the Moon Landing is faked or that Elvis still lives does that mean because 50,000 people voted makes those things true? Or is it just true to the people voting in those polls? Its just like the polls here when there is an overwhelming number of people that want to stay in Andromeda versus move to the Milky Way should people now stop asking about staying in The Milky Way because a large number of people here want to stay in Andromeda?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2020 18:23:12 GMT
How so? It was named "the worst company in America" two years in a row, by the Consumerist.
let's take a look:
"We were guilty of some stuff," Moore acknowledged. EA's new ambition was to be a player first company.... and part of this player first model is to delay games when necessary to ensure quality.
Then Anthem was launched.
I rest my case.
How does an online popularity vote mean anything, its not like Consumer Reports actually did anything to quantify those results. In fact EA is still around while The Consumerist is long gone and shutdown. Pretty poor case. Especially when EA has done plenty of actions to show their change such as not having things like lootboxes in two of their games including Jedi: Fallen Order. Anthem is being retooled to make a game players might want to play. Just because some online poll said something doesn't mean its the truth, I bet there are plenty of online polls where people claim the Moon Landing is faked or that Elvis still lives does that mean because 50,000 people voted makes those things true? Or is it just true to the people voting in those polls? Its just like the polls here when there is an overwhelming number of people that want to stay in Andromeda versus move to the Milky Way should people now stop asking about staying in The Milky Way because a large number of people here want to stay in Andromeda? Plus those polls are ridiculous. None of the game studios are anywhere remotely close to the worst companies. For example, any of the banks are objectively worse.
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xrayspex73
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Post by xrayspex73 on Jun 12, 2020 19:26:07 GMT
You are talking about a Bioware that does not exist anymore. Loved that Bioware. Hate the current one.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2020 19:35:10 GMT
You are talking about a Bioware that does not exist anymore. Loved that Bioware. Hate the current one. Have to disagree. Their latest Dragon Age and Mass Effect were the best of their respective franchises.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 12, 2020 19:54:28 GMT
You are talking about a Bioware that does not exist anymore. Loved that Bioware. Hate the current one. Have to disagree. Their latest Dragon Age and Mass Effect were the best of their respective franchises. I definitely agree with Dragon Age: Inquisition. After doing a critical path game while ignoring as much of the other content as possible. I found the story to be the most enjoyable and going for the trap of being an open world style game really diluted the quality of the story. I found a similar thing with Andromeda, but with its design I find it harder to focus purely on the critical path to make it more like the first three Mass Effect games.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Jun 12, 2020 19:56:31 GMT
You are talking about a Bioware that does not exist anymore. Loved that Bioware. Hate the current one. Have to disagree. Their latest Dragon Age and Mass Effect were the best of their respective franchises.
By latest Dragon Age you mean the one from 6 years ago? Yeah that was their last good game as far as I'm concerned.
Current Bioware is not even close to that anymore.
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Post by NotN7 on Jun 12, 2020 21:42:01 GMT
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned Bioware is taking way too long to produce a real (fan favorite) game, those 30 some odd peeps trying to save Anthem could be better used elsewhere (unless they are third party)other wise get real work on what you know not what others want if your having internal conflicts then fire them but your not making any money taking so long to produce a game that everyone wants *steps off rant box*
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 13, 2020 0:11:12 GMT
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned Bioware is taking way too long to produce a real (fan favorite) game, those 30 some odd peeps trying to save Anthem could be better used elsewhere (unless they are third party)other wise get real work on what you know not what others want if your having internal conflicts then fire them but your not making any money taking so long to produce a game that everyone wants *steps off rant box* That's probably what that supposed remaster is for. An attempt to get a major sale.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 14, 2020 4:13:30 GMT
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned Bioware is taking way too long to produce a real (fan favorite) game, those 30 some odd peeps trying to save Anthem could be better used elsewhere (unless they are third party)other wise get real work on what you know not what others want if your having internal conflicts then fire them but your not making any money taking so long to produce a game that everyone wants *steps off rant box* Those 30 people if they weren't working on Anthem would be working on Star Wars or would be looking for work elsewhere that is the job they are hired to do and just because you don't think Anthem is worth it means they would be reassigned to a game you want them to work on. Besides the expression too many cooks seems to apply and of course the telecommunication from BioWare Austin would suck too. They tried making a game the fans said they wanted and we got Mass Effect: Andromeda since they tried to do everything fans said they wanted in the game and the final results were... well you saw. They have to make a game that works an rushing a game gives you garbage unless you want a repeat of Dragon Age 2 where the entire game was made under crunch situations and then pretty lackluster for a BioWare game. A good foundation means a good game just throwing something together to meet the fan's being impatient means that they don't care about the quality of the product.
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Glorious Star Lord
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KaiserShep
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 14, 2020 6:31:01 GMT
Have to disagree. Their latest Dragon Age and Mass Effect were the best of their respective franchises. I definitely agree with Dragon Age: Inquisition. After doing a critical path game while ignoring as much of the other content as possible. I found the story to be the most enjoyable and going for the trap of being an open world style game really diluted the quality of the story. I found a similar thing with Andromeda, but with its design I find it harder to focus purely on the critical path to make it more like the first three Mass Effect games. The biggest thing I hope BioWare really takes to heart is learning how to apply its spaces. I think Andromeda's biggest problem though is that it squanders all that space by not fleshing out the biomes, enemy types and encampments. Horizon Zero Dawn manages to encourage actively exploring because the terrain itself is interesting and varied, and the enemy types vary along with it. Every planet uses just about the same enemy assets instead of having something that's more unique to its surroundings.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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wright1978
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 14, 2020 10:25:42 GMT
Have to disagree. Their latest Dragon Age and Mass Effect were the best of their respective franchises. I definitely agree with Dragon Age: Inquisition. After doing a critical path game while ignoring as much of the other content as possible. I found the story to be the most enjoyable and going for the trap of being an open world style game really diluted the quality of the story. I found a similar thing with Andromeda, but with its design I find it harder to focus purely on the critical path to make it more like the first three Mass Effect games. Yeah i don't think the open world has really helped the overall experience. I agree that Inquisition has some very good story stuff but experience could get lost in the open world slogathon.
Andromeda was poor imo and the bugs and the open world slog just highlighted that even more.
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