Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on May 28, 2020 18:00:55 GMT
Sounds abominable. Curious what's the rationale behind such a notion? It's from that Kotaku article by Schreier, where he discusses what he thinks live service could entail. Mind you it's just him talking, he isn't suggesting it's something they're doing but yeah. Didn't like it when I first heard the idea, still don't. Just to clarify, those were BW's ideas, not Jason's. "For example, some ideas I’ve heard floated for Morrison’s multiplayer include companions that can be controlled by multiple players via drop-in/drop-out co-op, similar to old-school BioWare RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, and quests that could change based not just on one player’s decisions, but on the choices of players across the globe."
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Post by Fredward on May 28, 2020 18:05:31 GMT
Oh right that's why I was panicky when I heard it the first time, guess I'll go back to that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 28, 2020 18:07:59 GMT
I just don’t get how it generates them money Theoretically, it keeps players invested so that they’ll be on board to buy an expansion/future DLC down the line. It certainly would not work in my case, however. I don't see how the world changing in a way that went against the choices you made simply because more people chose the other option would keep anyone invested, other than the few who manage to always be on the lucky side.
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Post by necrowaif on May 28, 2020 18:42:21 GMT
Telltale did something kinda similar when they let the majority vote dictate the path of the narrative in their episodic launches. Personally, I felt it led to a weaker story in The Wolf Among Us. The reveal of the murderer just didn't feel appropriate for the story.
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Post by biggydx on May 28, 2020 19:00:38 GMT
It's from that Kotaku article by Schreier, where he discusses what he thinks live service could entail. Mind you it's just him talking, he isn't suggesting it's something they're doing but yeah. Didn't like it when I first heard the idea, still don't. I just don’t get how it generates them money The service itself isn't what makes them money. It's the monetization side that does. Live service is what facilitates the revenue made off the purchase of certain items with real world money. Said items are often created to have an alluring appeal to them either because they're (1) aesthetically pleasing, or (2) will be removed from the game at some point, and the Fear of Missing Out (FOMO) drives the player to purchase the item. The latter is often done through what are known as "Seasons", where content or themes are sunset for entirely new content, themes, and premium items. You maintain the games live service for an extended period, with new content, which allows you to retain your playerbase numbers. Keeping a consistent playerbase also keeps a consistent number of players buying your premium items, thereby making both the developer (and publisher) more money. Edit: I should also point out that premium items can have tangible impacts on your gaming experience as well. For example, the loot boxes in Mass Effect multiplayer could be purchased with real world money, and it had a tangible impact on your gaming experience because it meant getting new weapons, consumables, mods, or upgrades.
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Post by ClarkKent on May 28, 2020 19:55:15 GMT
Technically Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were live service, but there's live service(some outfit packs and some expansions) and then there's live service(see GTA online, The Division, Ass Odyssey etc).
Personally, I think it would be bad move to gut a beloved single player franchise and fill it with loot boxes, and other always online-ness. The audience that would typically buy a Dragon Age game aren't typically ones that would clamour for a deep multiplayer experience in said game. Games like the Witcher 3 and Skyrim(heck even B tier games like Greedfall) have proven that there's a big audience for immersive fantasy RPGs. I know a lot of that audience, including myself, will be instantly turned off if they go the 'Anthem with dragons' route, or anything like that, and then what? Now, they've got to drag away players from most likely better live service games like GTA Online and the division.
This is all with the stinking aroma of Anthem's live service failures on their backs.
Which is why I have hope that it won't be as bad as we think.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on May 28, 2020 20:50:20 GMT
It's from that Kotaku article by Schreier, where he discusses what he thinks live service could entail. Mind you it's just him talking, he isn't suggesting it's something they're doing but yeah. Didn't like it when I first heard the idea, still don't. Just to clarify, those were BW's ideas, not Jason's. "...quests that could change based not just on one player’s decisions, but on the choices of players across the globe."
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 28, 2020 21:11:50 GMT
include companions that can be controlled by multiple players via drop-in/drop-out co-op, similar to old-school BioWare RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, This sounds...fine, assuming it would be optional (and I can't imagine it wouldn't be). and quests that could change based not just on one player’s decisions, but on the choices of players across the globe." My thoughts on this idea, however?
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Post by wright1978 on May 28, 2020 21:34:00 GMT
include companions that can be controlled by multiple players via drop-in/drop-out co-op, similar to old-school BioWare RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, This sounds...fine, assuming it would be optional (and I can't imagine it wouldn't be). and quests that could change based not just on one player’s decisions, but on the choices of players across the globe." My thoughts on this idea, however? I’m very wary about the notion of them making companions effectively optional and what effects this might have on their content going forward.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 28, 2020 21:47:20 GMT
This sounds...fine, assuming it would be optional (and I can't imagine it wouldn't be). My thoughts on this idea, however? I’m very wary about the notion of them making companions effectively optional and what effects this might have on their content going forward. I'm not an expert on how this worked in earlier titles, but wasn't it simply "your friends could join your existing campaign and control companions exploration and combat"? That doesn't sound too awful. They'd still be full companions and controlled by AI or by the player as and when needed if you chose not to use the co-op option. At least, that's my understanding of it.
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Post by Sartoz on May 28, 2020 21:57:39 GMT
So long as I get a proper singleplayer campaign that isn’t impeded by online access in any way, then I guess it won’t matter.
Maybe. A re-playable single player campaign is all good. I hope we can replay solo as many times as we want.
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Post by wright1978 on May 28, 2020 22:07:26 GMT
I’m very wary about the notion of them making companions effectively optional and what effects this might have on their content going forward. I'm not an expert on how this worked in earlier titles, but wasn't it simply "your friends could join your existing campaign and control companions exploration and combat"? That doesn't sound too awful. They'd still be full companions and controlled by AI or by the player as and when needed if you chose not to use the co-op option. At least, that's my understanding of it. Yes but that means they would be adding (& likely heavily promoting) notion of companions being shells for others to occupy. For example would the level of companion banter stay the same if they are, ie why invest as much resource in this when we’re planning on lots of people playing with friends.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 28, 2020 22:09:09 GMT
It's from that Kotaku article by Schreier, where he discusses what he thinks live service could entail. Mind you it's just him talking, he isn't suggesting it's something they're doing but yeah. Didn't like it when I first heard the idea, still don't. Just to clarify, those were BW's ideas, not Jason's. "For example, some ideas I’ve heard floated for Morrison’s multiplayer include companions that can be controlled by multiple players via drop-in/drop-out co-op, similar to old-school BioWare RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, and quests that could change based not just on one player’s decisions, but on the choices of players across the globe." Fuck that. If they do this and infect the game with this nonsense, I’ll have to buy a forty to pour.
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Post by ClarkKent on May 28, 2020 22:11:59 GMT
I'm not an expert on how this worked in earlier titles, but wasn't it simply "your friends could join your existing campaign and control companions exploration and combat"? That doesn't sound too awful. They'd still be full companions and controlled by AI or by the player as and when needed if you chose not to use the co-op option. At least, that's my understanding of it. Yes but that means they would be adding (& likely heavily promoting) notion of companions being shells for others to occupy. For example would the level of companion banter stay the same if they are, ie why invest as much resource in this when we’re planning on lots of people playing with friends. Or at the very least all battle micromanagement of companions would be gone, like Andromeda.
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Post by operationathena on May 28, 2020 22:52:19 GMT
I just remembered Inquisition actually had multiplayer because of this post. I played it exactly once and shut it off. Shame, too - I quite enjoyed ME3's multiplayer. But, alas, I'm sure microtransactions will be aplenty.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on May 28, 2020 23:50:28 GMT
It's from that Kotaku article by Schreier, where he discusses what he thinks live service could entail. Mind you it's just him talking, he isn't suggesting it's something they're doing but yeah. Didn't like it when I first heard the idea, still don't. Just to clarify, those were BW's ideas, not Jason's. "For example, some ideas I’ve heard floated for Morrison’s multiplayer include companions that can be controlled by multiple players via drop-in/drop-out co-op, similar to old-school BioWare RPGs like Baldur’s Gate, and quests that could change based not just on one player’s decisions, but on the choices of players across the globe." Yeah, but that is about as concrete as pudding for something that would go into the game. When that article was written they were probably at the furthest the prototyping stage and I am pretty sure at that point they could even talk about how the protagonist could cut of their own head and then use it as a spy device by their body rolling it down the hall like a bowling ball.
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Post by colfoley on May 29, 2020 8:05:12 GMT
I think the other idea behind Live Service, in general, is to...keep games at their highest price point for as long as possible. If a company is releasing new content continuously over months or even years then the theory seems to dictate that game can still be at a higher price point for as long as possible because more people might want to buy it as they are hearing about it and its still in the public eye...and that game will just continue to be more relevant and continue to be valuable long term.
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Post by biggydx on May 29, 2020 15:20:30 GMT
Technically Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were live service, but there's live service(some outfit packs and some expansions) and then there's live service(see GTA online, The Division, Ass Odyssey etc). Personally, I think it would be bad move to gut a beloved single player franchise and fill it with loot boxes, and other always online-ness. The audience that would typically buy a Dragon Age game aren't typically ones that would clamour for a deep multiplayer experience in said game. Games like the Witcher 3 and Skyrim(heck even B tier games like Greedfall) have proven that there's a big audience for immersive fantasy RPGs. I know a lot of that audience, including myself, will be instantly turned off if they go the 'Anthem with dragons' route, or anything like that, and then what? Now, they've got to drag away players from most likely better live service games like GTA Online and the division. This is all with the stinking aroma of Anthem's live service failures on their backs. Which is why I have hope that it won't be as bad as we think. Dragon Age: Inquisition not only came with multiplayer, but it also had the equivalent of loot boxes. There were war chests you could purchase either with in-game currency, or premium currency. This was also true of Andromeda and ME3 multiplayer. Live service, online, and monetization, need not necessarily reduce the quality of the games single player/story component. For example, GTAV and RDR2 are well received games for their story, but both have their own live service elements and premium currencies. CDPR have said that there will be multiplayer in Cyberpunk 2077, but dont intend for it to be the focus of the game; and it wont release during launch. What matters most is, to what degree does the online component mix in with the single player campaign, and of what quality are those live service additions? Some games have done live service well, while others (like BioWare - with Anthem) have not.
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Post by ClarkKent on May 29, 2020 16:10:06 GMT
Technically Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 were live service, but there's live service(some outfit packs and some expansions) and then there's live service(see GTA online, The Division, Ass Odyssey etc). Personally, I think it would be bad move to gut a beloved single player franchise and fill it with loot boxes, and other always online-ness. The audience that would typically buy a Dragon Age game aren't typically ones that would clamour for a deep multiplayer experience in said game. Games like the Witcher 3 and Skyrim(heck even B tier games like Greedfall) have proven that there's a big audience for immersive fantasy RPGs. I know a lot of that audience, including myself, will be instantly turned off if they go the 'Anthem with dragons' route, or anything like that, and then what? Now, they've got to drag away players from most likely better live service games like GTA Online and the division. This is all with the stinking aroma of Anthem's live service failures on their backs. Which is why I have hope that it won't be as bad as we think. Dragon Age: Inquisition not only came with multiplayer, but it also had the equivalent of loot boxes. There were war chests you could purchase either with in-game currency, or premium currency. This was also true of Andromeda and ME3 multiplayer. Live service, online, and monetization, need not necessarily reduce the quality of the games single player/story component. For example, GTAV and RDR2 are well received games for their story, but both have their own live service elements and premium currencies. CDPR have said that there will be multiplayer in Cyberpunk 2077, but dont intend for it to be the focus of the game; and it wont release during launch. What matters most is, to what degree does the online component mix in with the single player campaign, and of what quality are those live service additions? Some games have done live service well, while others (like BioWare - with Anthem) have not. Yeah I know. I'm speaking purely from the perspective of a hypothetical scenario where this happens The multiplayer of Inquisition was live service but the single player wasn't. There was also no connectivity whatsoever in the single player of Inquisition. There was never a moment in Dragon Age Inquisition where I received a message that "redbadger69 has just looted some useless crap from a cave and is now #1 on some bullshit leaderboard". If Bioware want to keep that separation in Dragon Age 4 that is absolutely fine. I would rather of course that no resources get squandered on multiplayer - but that's life. The big fear is that we don't get that separation. We get Anthem instead.
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 29, 2020 16:25:17 GMT
I hope whatever it has, it will not be loot boxes. I think we've already demonstrated that type of business is poorly received.
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Post by coldsteelblue on May 30, 2020 9:16:17 GMT
I hope whatever it has, it will not be loot boxes. I think we've already demonstrated that type of business is poorly received.
I read an article recently, although I can't remember where it was, but it was talking about the recent Mortal Kombat 11 expansion, at it's heart the article mentioned that aggressive monitisation & lootboxes are rapidly dying as players are utilising them less & less & thus game expansions are making a comeback, the article also listed a few games that had done this.
So, I'd say by the time DA4 roles around LB's will be a thing of the past & any monetisiation will be cosmetic, thus, in my view, the live service elements of will mainly be The Keep, MP & SP balance changes & events. This keeps players invested in the game & player numbers high & this is why full expansions are making a return, gamers are playing the same game for longer, thus the expense of developing them is justified.
That's just my opinion of it, I'll hunt around, see if I can find the article I read & if so, put a link in here
EDT: Can't seem to find the article, but other than listing a few recent games with expansions, it didn't really add anything to what I said
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Post by bear on May 31, 2020 8:01:29 GMT
Live service doesn't neccesarily imply that the SP campaign couldn't be played in off-line mode, right?
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coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on May 31, 2020 9:11:28 GMT
Live service doesn't neccesarily imply that the SP campaign couldn't be played in off-line mode, right?
Doesn't imply that at all, no, I'm sure SP could be played offline.
See, "live service" is a term with no real meaning, especially if you consider how long such a service has been in games, it's only because it's been given a name that it's become a 'thing.'
How I view live service is thusly: A service that allows games to be changed & updated without the requirement of a patch, this can range from simple balance changes & store updates, all the way to full online only games, the only requirement of "live service" is an internet connection in order to connect to game servers.
This could be exactly like DA:I where you only needed to be online do download Keep data for SP, then you could remain offline indefinitely.
But that's just my take, each studio can take a different approach.
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Sanunes
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on May 31, 2020 9:19:06 GMT
Live service doesn't neccesarily imply that the SP campaign couldn't be played in off-line mode, right? Depends on what you mean with off-line mode, they are all require launchers anymore and you will at points in time need to do some type of check-in periodically.
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Post by Gileadan on Jun 6, 2020 8:24:55 GMT
Live service doesn't neccesarily imply that the SP campaign couldn't be played in off-line mode, right? Not necessarily, no. It all depends on the implementation of said SP campaign. But "will be built on Anthem's code base" might mean just that. Anthem is, as far as I know, always online and while you can set your game to "private" for the story missions, the game will immediately badger you with a text pop-up that informs you that your choice is bad and you should really play with others, even though that tends to make your story experience worse. The story campaign is merely a set of pre-defined missions set in the same map as the normal online play, and playing them in private is technically just playing a multiplayer match with a party size of 1.
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