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Post by grallon on Jun 26, 2020 16:25:50 GMT
Fewer Voice Actors, Fewer Companions, fewer Romances and something OP didn't suggest: fewer protagonist choices.
Remember kids: Get Woke - Go broke.
If Bioware wouldn't stoop to pandering, they'd save a lot in production costs. What game is hailed as the best RPG ever made? Witcher 3 - where you're stuck being a heterosexual male, whose only customization options available was hair & beard. But the character was complex and had an engaging story.
The same could be said about DA2 - no matter its numerous flaws. Or Mass Effect. Both had limited choices and a typecast protagonist.
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Post by dagless on Jun 26, 2020 17:35:22 GMT
Fewer Voice Actors, Fewer Companions, fewer Romances and something OP didn't suggest: fewer protagonist choices. Remember kids: Get Woke - Go broke. If Bioware wouldn't stoop to pandering, they'd save a lot in production costs. What game is hailed as the best RPG ever made? Witcher 3 - where you're stuck being a heterosexual male, whose only customization options available was hair & beard. But the character was complex and had an engaging story. The same could be said about DA2 - no matter its numerous flaws. Or Mass Effect. Both had limited choices and a typecast protagonist. LOL. Imagine the uproar from the Elvish & Qunari Lives Matter campaign if they dropped race selection options! That’s why we have customizable characters. It’s not about giving players the option to play a variety of characters at all, just pandering to minorities. Fantasy world minorities. Obviously.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 26, 2020 17:40:45 GMT
Fewer Voice Actors, Fewer Companions, fewer Romances and something OP didn't suggest: fewer protagonist choices. Remember kids: Get Woke - Go broke. If Bioware wouldn't stoop to pandering, they'd save a lot in production costs. What game is hailed as the best RPG ever made? Witcher 3 - where you're stuck being a heterosexual male, whose only customization options available was hair & beard. But the character was complex and had an engaging story. The same could be said about DA2 - no matter its numerous flaws. Or Mass Effect. Both had limited choices and a typecast protagonist. You're right, we should only be able to play a gay male qunari next game tbh.
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Post by dagless on Jun 26, 2020 17:59:02 GMT
Fewer Voice Actors, Fewer Companions, fewer Romances and something OP didn't suggest: fewer protagonist choices. Remember kids: Get Woke - Go broke. If Bioware wouldn't stoop to pandering, they'd save a lot in production costs. What game is hailed as the best RPG ever made? Witcher 3 - where you're stuck being a heterosexual male, whose only customization options available was hair & beard. But the character was complex and had an engaging story. The same could be said about DA2 - no matter its numerous flaws. Or Mass Effect. Both had limited choices and a typecast protagonist. You're right, we should only be able to play a gay male qunari next game tbh. I could go for that. BioWare have had to put up with this special pleading for years from a certain group that hilariously turned out to be the biggest bunch of snowflakes of all. The funniest thing about this nonsense is that both Shepherd and Hawke can be male or female, black or white, straight or gay. So the only “pandering” in Inquisition compared to Mass Effect or DA2 is the inclusion of fantasy races. Brilliant!
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 26, 2020 21:55:23 GMT
Fewer Voice Actors, Fewer Companions, fewer Romances and something OP didn't suggest: fewer protagonist choices. Remember kids: Get Woke - Go broke. If Bioware wouldn't stoop to pandering, they'd save a lot in production costs. What game is hailed as the best RPG ever made? Witcher 3 - where you're stuck being a heterosexual male, whose only customization options available was hair & beard. But the character was complex and had an engaging story. The same could be said about DA2 - no matter its numerous flaws. Or Mass Effect. Both had limited choices and a typecast protagonist. And yet I found Geralt as deep as puddle and about as appealing as shit floating across it. The characters in TW3 were so awful because the game went full teen male power fantasy... Dragon Age stomps the Witcher into the dirt in terms of quality and depth.
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Post by NotN7 on Jun 26, 2020 21:57:17 GMT
Fewer Voice Actors, Fewer Companions, fewer Romances and something OP didn't suggest: fewer protagonist choices. Remember kids: Get Woke - Go broke. If Bioware wouldn't stoop to pandering, they'd save a lot in production costs. What game is hailed as the best RPG ever made? Witcher 3 - where you're stuck being a heterosexual male, whose only customization options available was hair & beard. But the character was complex and had an engaging story. The same could be said about DA2 - no matter its numerous flaws. Or Mass Effect. Both had limited choices and a typecast protagonist. You're right, we should only be able to play a gay male qunari next game tbh. Umm? sorry but wasn't Iron bull gay? or was it because he was bi? pls explain, sorry I do have an open mind (to each their own to own their each) I do not judge we are entitled to our beliefs but why does it has to be gay or not I don't sound off as being straight what Bioware does is what they do there is no changing that but with that said sure a gay qunari go for it but I myself would rather have a choice in sexuality
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 27, 2020 1:41:22 GMT
You're right, we should only be able to play a gay male qunari next game tbh. Umm? sorry but wasn't Iron bull gay? or was it because he was bi? pls explain, sorry I do have an open mind (to each their own to own their each) I do not judge we are entitled to our beliefs but why does it has to be gay or not I don't sound off as being straight what Bioware does is what they do there is no changing that but with that said sure a gay qunari go for it but I myself would rather have a choice in sexuality Iron Bull is pansexual, which is similar to bi; they like everyone, regardless of gender expression (clothing choice, haircut, etc.), biological bits, or any combination of those.
Witchcocktor was being sarcastic because the person he was replying to was talking about Bioware pandering to minority groups. Since that person made the point that Bioware would save production costs by having a single race, single gender, single sexual orientation PC, like Witcher has, well then why not a gay male Qunari? But since that person is accusing Bioware of "pandering," the suggestion is that it would be a straight male human.
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Post by NotN7 on Jun 27, 2020 2:04:13 GMT
Umm? sorry but wasn't Iron bull gay? or was it because he was bi? pls explain, sorry I do have an open mind (to each their own to own their each) I do not judge we are entitled to our beliefs but why does it has to be gay or not I don't sound off as being straight what Bioware does is what they do there is no changing that but with that said sure a gay qunari go for it but I myself would rather have a choice in sexuality Iron Bull is pansexual, which is similar to bi; they like everyone, regardless of gender expression (clothing choice, haircut, etc.), biological bits, or any combination of those.
Witchcocktor was being sarcastic because the person he was replying to was talking about Bioware pandering to minority groups. Since that person made the point that Bioware would save production costs by having a single race, single gender, single sexual orientation PC, like Witcher has, well then why not a gay male Qunari? But since that person is accusing Bioware of "pandering," the suggestion is that it would be a straight male human.
Ah, got ya thanks for that I miss understood
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 27, 2020 12:30:22 GMT
A clarification:
When I said I wouldn't miss romances, I wasn't targeting any specific group. In fact, I didn't target anyone at all. I just thought about where I'd make a cut if I needed resources to spend on worldbuilding and storytelling (of the actual main story), those things which make be want games the likes of DAx, TW3 or anything else broadly similar in the first place. If people choose to take that as something else, that's not my problem and certainly not my fault.
If a game does have romance and I don't like it, I avoid it. It's as easy as that. Should I ever want a game romance that desperately, I'd go and look for a game which is *about* romance, not an epic fantasy story. Romance has the potential to enrich many stories, but it's not indispensible for most of them.
Those for whom game romances are so important that they would make a big issue of the opinion that they're superfluous to the requirements of a good epic fantasy story, can rest assured that Bioware won't remove them. Most likely. They've become too much of a staple in their games. However, this thread asked our opinions, and I gave mine, and maintain it. Note that I maintain it in spite of the fact that DAO had my favorite romanceable NPC.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 27, 2020 19:24:59 GMT
Fewer Voice Actors, Fewer Companions, fewer Romances and something OP didn't suggest: fewer protagonist choices. Remember kids: Get Woke - Go broke. If Bioware wouldn't stoop to pandering, they'd save a lot in production costs. What game is hailed as the best RPG ever made? Witcher 3 - where you're stuck being a heterosexual male, whose only customization options available was hair & beard. But the character was complex and had an engaging story. The same could be said about DA2 - no matter its numerous flaws. Or Mass Effect. Both had limited choices and a typecast protagonist. How dare Bioware actually has a vision of their own seriously I though games were art? How come we have to do same old thing? If anything some people find the diverse protagonist of DA appealing because it opens up more choices.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 19:43:02 GMT
A clarification: When I said I wouldn't miss romances, I wasn't targeting any specific group. In fact, I didn't target anyone at all. I just thought about where I'd make a cut if I needed resources to spend on worldbuilding and storytelling (of the actual main story), those things which make be want games the likes of DAx, TW3 or anything else broadly similar in the first place. If people choose to take that as something else, that's not my problem and certainly not my fault. If a game does have romance and I don't like it, I avoid it. It's as easy as that. Should I ever want a game romance that desperately, I'd go and look for a game which is *about* romance, not an epic fantasy story. Romance has the potential to enrich many stories, but it's not indispensible for most of them. Those for whom game romances are so important that they would make a big issue of the opinion that they're superfluous to the requirements of a good epic fantasy story, can rest assured that Bioware won't remove them. Most likely. They've become too much of a staple in their games. However, this thread asked our opinions, and I gave mine, and maintain it. Note that I maintain it in spite of the fact that DAO had my favorite romanceable NPC. Liking a post that includes the phrase "get woke - go broke", lauds the virtues of being limited to playing only as a heterosexual male, and accuses BioWare of "stooping to pandering" sure seems like targeting someone. And it's just... super convenient, I guess, that all the things that apparently make DA games "bad" are the things that are important to players of diverse ethnicity and sexuality, and are hard to find elsewhere?
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Post by githcheater on Jun 27, 2020 19:58:30 GMT
Gotta love the cancel culture. God forbid if anyone offers an "incorrect" opinion.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 27, 2020 20:00:12 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure my interest in future DA games would wane if things like romance were nixed. I understand the concept that its sacrifice means more effort is supposedly put elsewhere, but not for a second do I believe this to actually translate to reality. The truth is that it would simply be gone, and it just means fewer options for the player for a more "streamlined" experience. I see it costing less of a word budget to some degree, but the net benefit just won't be there for the players themselves, so no thanks.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2020 20:06:10 GMT
Gotta love the cancel culture. God forbid if anyone offers an "incorrect" opinion. Hey, I haven't said that anyone's opinions were incorrect. I may have implied that they were bigoted, but not incorrect.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 27, 2020 20:07:07 GMT
Gotta love the cancel culture. God forbid if anyone offers an "incorrect" opinion. This is a sweaty nerd dungeon, nobody is being canceled, the heck are you talking about.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 27, 2020 20:11:48 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure my interest in future DA games would wane if things like romance were nixed. I understand the concept that its sacrifice means more effort is supposedly put elsewhere, but not for a second do I believe this to actually translate to reality. The truth is that it would simply be gone, and it just means fewer options for the player for a more "streamlined" experience. I see it costing less of a word budget to some degree, but the net benefit just won't be there for the players themselves, so no thanks. A good point. I don't think the budget that is taken out of anything would mean that the finished product would be better in the end, that's not realistic. But I don't think this thread was aiming for a realism to begin with lol. Personally I would just take out budget from graphics. Go for a more stylized look, maybe something cartooney! I really don't give a damn about next level graphics, I really don't. I wouldn't mind at all if Dragon Age looked like Wildstar or Fable 3.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 27, 2020 20:19:12 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure my interest in future DA games would wane if things like romance were nixed. I understand the concept that its sacrifice means more effort is supposedly put elsewhere, but not for a second do I believe this to actually translate to reality. The truth is that it would simply be gone, and it just means fewer options for the player for a more "streamlined" experience. I see it costing less of a word budget to some degree, but the net benefit just won't be there for the players themselves, so no thanks. A good point. I don't think the budget that is taken out of anything would mean that the finished product would be better in the end, that's not realistic. But I don't think this thread was aiming for a realism to begin with lol. Personally I would just take out budget from graphics. Go for a more stylized look, maybe something cartooney! I really don't give a damn about next level graphics, I really don't. I wouldn't mind at all if Dragon Age looked like Wildstar or Fable 3.
And other frivolous details that devs might insert into a game just to make the experience more "immersive". Look at Naughty Dog's "grain sack tech" they used in Uncharted, where if you shot a sack of grain, the bag deflated as the grain fell out. As neat a little novelty as that is, it serves nothing toward the greater scope of the game, and is absolutely useless. I don't need the all aspects of the map to be destructible, or for hair physics to be uncannily accurate. Heck, if I had a BioWare game that had the visual style of, say, Into the Spider-Verse, I'd probably be over the moon lol.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 27, 2020 20:22:53 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure my interest in future DA games would wane if things like romance were nixed. I understand the concept that its sacrifice means more effort is supposedly put elsewhere, but not for a second do I believe this to actually translate to reality. The truth is that it would simply be gone, and it just means fewer options for the player for a more "streamlined" experience. I see it costing less of a word budget to some degree, but the net benefit just won't be there for the players themselves, so no thanks. Most of my favourite games, whether its the Witcher(triss), origins(leliana), DA2(Issy), Mass Effect(Miranda) as experiences were vastly enriched by the romances. As long as humans are human there is going to desire/attraction and games that want me to play a character devoid of rich element struggle to muster much enthusiasm in me.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 27, 2020 20:33:38 GMT
A good point. I don't think the budget that is taken out of anything would mean that the finished product would be better in the end, that's not realistic. But I don't think this thread was aiming for a realism to begin with lol. Personally I would just take out budget from graphics. Go for a more stylized look, maybe something cartooney! I really don't give a damn about next level graphics, I really don't. I wouldn't mind at all if Dragon Age looked like Wildstar or Fable 3.
And other frivolous details that devs might insert into a game just to make the experience more "immersive". Look at Naughty Dog's "grain sack tech" they used in Uncharted, where if you shot a sack of grain, the bag deflated as the grain fell out. As neat a little novelty as that is, it serves nothing toward the greater scope of the game, and is absolutely useless. I don't need the all aspects of the map to be destructible, or for hair physics to be uncannily accurate. Heck, if I had a BioWare game that had the visual style of, say, Into the Spider-Verse, I'd probably be over the moon lol.
I just don't know if the strive for realistic graphics and physics is really making games better in any way. I think style and atmosphere complimenting each other is a bigger feat than realistic hair movement and every strand of hair being carefully modeled.
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 27, 2020 20:36:40 GMT
A clarification: When I said I wouldn't miss romances, I wasn't targeting any specific group. In fact, I didn't target anyone at all. I just thought about where I'd make a cut if I needed resources to spend on worldbuilding and storytelling (of the actual main story), those things which make be want games the likes of DAx, TW3 or anything else broadly similar in the first place. If people choose to take that as something else, that's not my problem and certainly not my fault. If a game does have romance and I don't like it, I avoid it. It's as easy as that. Should I ever want a game romance that desperately, I'd go and look for a game which is *about* romance, not an epic fantasy story. Romance has the potential to enrich many stories, but it's not indispensible for most of them. Those for whom game romances are so important that they would make a big issue of the opinion that they're superfluous to the requirements of a good epic fantasy story, can rest assured that Bioware won't remove them. Most likely. They've become too much of a staple in their games. However, this thread asked our opinions, and I gave mine, and maintain it. Note that I maintain it in spite of the fact that DAO had my favorite romanceable NPC. Liking a post that includes the phrase "get woke - go broke", lauds the virtues of being limited to playing only as a heterosexual male, and accuses BioWare of "stooping to pandering" sure seems like targeting someone. Yeah, I did that as a response to yours, where you just *had* to invoke the culture war with no provocation whatsoever. I didn't want to make this an issue, you did. You know, it would be really nice if we could talk about DA in ONE THREAD where you - or one of two or three others - don't bring this up. It does get tiresome.
I am, actually, not unfamiliar with the problem of being forced to express traits in my player characters which are in opposition to how I envision them, and with that to happen with traits I can't simply let go to play someone else, for various reasons that have more to do with me than the game. I know quite well how annoying that can be, and I also know about posting a rant about it in what felt like righteous wrath at the time. Quite embarrassing in hindsight, actually, all long gone in the archives of another place now, fortunately. The thing is, I don't think this should be everyone else's issue.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 27, 2020 20:47:14 GMT
Count me in for simpler facial animations(just not offensively bad like Andromeda). I'd much rather have more variations on cut scenes depending on my choices than dynamically moving nostrils.
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 27, 2020 20:50:36 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure my interest in future DA games would wane if things like romance were nixed. I understand the concept that its sacrifice means more effort is supposedly put elsewhere, but not for a second do I believe this to actually translate to reality. The truth is that it would simply be gone, and it just means fewer options for the player for a more "streamlined" experience. I see it costing less of a word budget to some degree, but the net benefit just won't be there for the players themselves, so no thanks. Most of my favourite games, whether its the Witcher(triss), origins(leliana), DA2(Issy), Mass Effect(Miranda) as experiences were vastly enriched by the romances. As long as humans are human there is going to desire/attraction and games that want me to play a character devoid of rich element struggle to muster much enthusiasm in me. I understand, and I did enjoy some of those quite a bit. I still don't think the romances were really as essential as they seem to be in hindsight. We would have experienced the story in different ways. I will, again, mention Pillars of Eternity as an example of a game with no romance and characters that were, in my opinion, better-realized than Bioware ever did. Not that it wouldn't be possible to do both, but we *were* talking about sacrifices.
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Post by githcheater on Jun 27, 2020 20:54:32 GMT
Gotta love the cancel culture. God forbid if anyone offers an "incorrect" opinion. This is a sweaty nerd dungeon, nobody is being canceled, the heck are you talking about. I'm not talking about you. You're cool.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 27, 2020 20:55:53 GMT
This is a sweaty nerd dungeon, nobody is being canceled, the heck are you talking about. I'm not talking about you. You're cool. Me, cool!?
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Post by grallon on Jun 27, 2020 21:17:39 GMT
Liking a post that includes the phrase "get woke - go broke", lauds the virtues of being limited to playing only as a heterosexual male, and accuses BioWare of "stooping to pandering" sure seems like targeting someone. And it's just... super convenient, I guess, that all the things that apparently make DA games "bad" are the things that are important to players of diverse ethnicity and sexuality, and are hard to find elsewhere?
*sigh*
When I saw Ieldra's 'clarification' I knew he or she had made a mistake. One should never apologize - or clarify - to appease the Woke cult fanatics - as evidenced by this reply which mischaracterizes what he or she meant, and what I myself wrote in the first place.
For your information, I am a gay man, and yet, despite that, I managed to greatly enjoy Witcher 3 - even though I had no choice other than playing a heterosexual male. I didn't need to be 'represented' to find the character or his story engaging. Similarly, DA2 had, in my opinion, the best narrative of all DA games, even though we were limited to playing a human. Once again, no mandatory representation was needed. My own identity is strong enough that I do not require validation at every turn, in every product I consume. I do not feel threatened because my pet 'cause-du-jour' isn't at the forefront of every media I turn to for entertainment.
The OP asked what we were willing to give up in order to make a 'better game'. To avoid spending money on trying to please every little identity niche sprouting under the sun would be a good place to start.
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