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Post by Catilina on Jun 10, 2020 0:18:32 GMT
Up until Inquisition, a 14th of the mage population under Andrastian rule was being slaughtered roughly every 35 years through the Right of Annulment. And that went on for 700 years. I guess mages should have written more strongly worded letters? The only people who call for "gradual change" are those, who are comfortable with the status quo. Who are outside of the groups struggling for their rights and don't really care about them, or are a part of them, but hold positions of power that shield them from harm (think Vivienne). Doesn't the Rite of Annulment codex say it is a rather rare event? "RIGHT" of Annulment. This massacre is a right...
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Post by Iddy on Jun 10, 2020 1:54:00 GMT
Friendly reminder that this isn't just about the mages, but all oppressed groups in Thedas.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
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Post by Quickpaw on Jun 18, 2020 1:31:27 GMT
I believe that the best summation of this argument (and in my opinion, its flaws) occurs in Dragon Age Awakening, when your Warden encounters Wynne in Ameranthine. Paraphrased:
Wynne: The Libertarians almost have enough support to pull away from the Chantry entirely. You: GOOD. It's about time. Wynne: That would be chaos! Change must be more gradual to be effective. You: If change doesn't happen now, IT WILL NEVER COME.
This conversation is one of the rare instances you can get her to admit how messed up the Circle system is as well, given that she states flat out any attempt to improve the Mages' situation will result in genocide. Her words, not the pc's or mine.
It speaks to the larger issue at hand. ANY amount of change that would actually be effective, IRL and in Thedas, is going to be "too much" to the people who most benefit from the status quo. We're seeing proof of it now. If you don't constantly push, things will simply rubber-band back into complacency and the cycle will simply start over again. Radical changes in how things work are messy and painful, but most of the time the cost of doing things gradually is far worse.
Why did the Rebellion not simply go slow against Palpatine's Empire? Because they knew anything less than all-out dismantlement of the Empire would solve nothing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 18, 2020 2:33:58 GMT
I believe that the best summation of this argument (and in my opinion, its flaws) occurs in Dragon Age Awakening, when your Warden encounters Wynne in Ameranthine. Paraphrased: Wynne: The Libertarians almost have enough support to pull away from the Chantry entirely. You: GOOD. It's about time. Wynne: That would be chaos! Change must be more gradual to be effective. You: If change doesn't happen now, IT WILL NEVER COME. This conversation is one of the rare instances you can get her to admit how messed up the Circle system is as well, given that she states flat out any attempt to improve the Mages' situation will result in genocide. Her words, not the pc's or mine. It speaks to the larger issue at hand. ANY amount of change that would actually be effective, IRL and in Thedas, is going to be "too much" to the people who most benefit from the status quo. We're seeing proof of it now. If you don't constantly push, things will simply rubber-band back into complacency and the cycle will simply start over again. Radical changes in how things work are messy and painful, but most of the time the cost of doing things gradually is far worse. Why did the Rebellion not simply go slow against Palpatine's Empire? Because they knew anything less than all-out dismantlement of the Empire would solve nothing. Radical changes more often than not fail, and of the successes more often that not just make things worse for everyone. Just look at events like the French or Russian Revolutions. As I said before, the majority of gradual peaceful changes are successful while radical violent ones aren’t. That isn’t my opinion, that is observable statistics.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 18, 2020 4:50:12 GMT
I believe that the best summation of this argument (and in my opinion, its flaws) occurs in Dragon Age Awakening, when your Warden encounters Wynne in Ameranthine. Paraphrased: Wynne: The Libertarians almost have enough support to pull away from the Chantry entirely. You: GOOD. It's about time. Wynne: That would be chaos! Change must be more gradual to be effective. You: If change doesn't happen now, IT WILL NEVER COME. This conversation is one of the rare instances you can get her to admit how messed up the Circle system is as well, given that she states flat out any attempt to improve the Mages' situation will result in genocide. Her words, not the pc's or mine. It speaks to the larger issue at hand. ANY amount of change that would actually be effective, IRL and in Thedas, is going to be "too much" to the people who most benefit from the status quo. We're seeing proof of it now. If you don't constantly push, things will simply rubber-band back into complacency and the cycle will simply start over again. Radical changes in how things work are messy and painful, but most of the time the cost of doing things gradually is far worse. Why did the Rebellion not simply go slow against Palpatine's Empire? Because they knew anything less than all-out dismantlement of the Empire would solve nothing. Radical changes more often than not fail, and of the successes more often that not just make things worse for everyone. Just look at events like the French or Russian Revolutions. As I said before, the majority of gradual peaceful changes are successful while radical violent ones aren’t. That isn’t my opinion, that is observable statistics. Some people take gradual change as "do nothing", when it really means "do one thing at a time, in an organized and focused manner".
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 18, 2020 8:58:35 GMT
I believe that the best summation of this argument (and in my opinion, its flaws) occurs in Dragon Age Awakening, when your Warden encounters Wynne in Ameranthine. Paraphrased: Wynne: The Libertarians almost have enough support to pull away from the Chantry entirely. You: GOOD. It's about time. Wynne: That would be chaos! Change must be more gradual to be effective. You: If change doesn't happen now, IT WILL NEVER COME. This conversation is one of the rare instances you can get her to admit how messed up the Circle system is as well, given that she states flat out any attempt to improve the Mages' situation will result in genocide. Her words, not the pc's or mine. It speaks to the larger issue at hand. ANY amount of change that would actually be effective, IRL and in Thedas, is going to be "too much" to the people who most benefit from the status quo. We're seeing proof of it now. If you don't constantly push, things will simply rubber-band back into complacency and the cycle will simply start over again. Radical changes in how things work are messy and painful, but most of the time the cost of doing things gradually is far worse. Why did the Rebellion not simply go slow against Palpatine's Empire? Because they knew anything less than all-out dismantlement of the Empire would solve nothing. Radical changes more often than not fail, and of the successes more often that not just make things worse for everyone. Just look at events like the French or Russian Revolutions. As I said before, the majority of gradual peaceful changes are successful while radical violent ones aren’t. That isn’t my opinion, that is observable statistics. The French Revolution lasted for 10 years, and the Russian Revolution lasted for 6, so I guess by your logic, the next Dragon Age game is also being "drastically" developed. Lulz. Also, if you could provide those observable statistics, that would be great.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 18, 2020 12:37:09 GMT
Just look at events like the French or Russian Revolutions. Um, last I knew France is doing well?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 18, 2020 18:36:22 GMT
Radical changes more often than not fail, and of the successes more often that not just make things worse for everyone. Just look at events like the French or Russian Revolutions. As I said before, the majority of gradual peaceful changes are successful while radical violent ones aren’t. That isn’t my opinion, that is observable statistics. The French Revolution lasted for 10 years, and the Russian Revolution lasted for 6, so I guess by your logic, the next Dragon Age game is also being "drastically" developed. Lulz. Also, if you could provide those observable statistics, that would be great. I don't think I need to point out the difference between developing a game and developing a nation, but good attempt at trying to dismiss the point. I would if I could remember the name of the study. Just look at events like the French or Russian Revolutions. Um, last I knew France is doing well? It's also been over 200 years since the French Revolution, including multiple other political changes.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 1:18:52 GMT
The French Revolution lasted for 10 years, and the Russian Revolution lasted for 6, so I guess by your logic, the next Dragon Age game is also being "drastically" developed. Lulz. Also, if you could provide those observable statistics, that would be great. I don't think I need to point out the difference between developing a game and developing a nation, but good attempt at trying to dismiss the point. I would if I could remember the name of the study. How very convenient. It's really transparently obvious that you and everyone else in here spruiking for "gradual change" are just using the label of "drastic change" to mean "change I didn't like". You cite the French and Russian revolutions as "drastic" change (based on what criteria? You haven't provided any), and say they made things worse for people (compared to what? Do you have a window into a parallel universe where the French and Russian monarchies are alive and well?), but you don't provide any examples of events you consider to count as "gradual change", because you don't actually have any, because the truth is you don't support "change" at all.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 1:27:06 GMT
I don't think I need to point out the difference between developing a game and developing a nation, but good attempt at trying to dismiss the point. I would if I could remember the name of the study. How very convenient. It's really transparently obvious that you and everyone else in here spruiking for "gradual change" are just using the label of "drastic change" to mean "change I didn't like". You cite the French and Russian revolutions as "drastic" change (based on what criteria? You haven't provided any), and say they made things worse for people (compared to what? Do you have a window into a parallel universe where the French and Russian monarchies are alive and well?), but you don't provide any examples of events you consider to count as "gradual change", because you don't actually have any, because the truth is you don't support "change" at all. You want an example? Fine. The French Revolution started by wanting freedom from an absolute monarch, but ended with an emperor who was more of an absolute monarchist than the king before ever was. That alone makes it a failure, not to mention the countless atrocities committed on the populace during those years. And no, I support change. I just don't support change that involves butchering innocent people because unlike some I actually care about others instead of just myself. Heck, to bring it back to Dragon Age I choose Leliana as the Divine, and she easily makes the most changes to the Chantry of the three options. So easy on the accusations, since you're obviously terrible at reading people or their motives/ideals/etc.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 1:29:06 GMT
How very convenient. It's really transparently obvious that you and everyone else in here spruiking for "gradual change" are just using the label of "drastic change" to mean "change I didn't like". You cite the French and Russian revolutions as "drastic" change (based on what criteria? You haven't provided any), and say they made things worse for people (compared to what? Do you have a window into a parallel universe where the French and Russian monarchies are alive and well?), but you don't provide any examples of events you consider to count as "gradual change", because you don't actually have any, because the truth is you don't support "change" at all. You want an example? Fine. The French Revolution started by wanting freedom from an absolute monarch, but ended with an emperor who was more of an absolute monarchist than the king before ever was. That alone makes it a failure, not to mention the countless atrocities committed on the populace during those years. And no, I support change. I just don't support change that involves butchering innocent people because unlike some I actually care about others instead of just myself. Heck, to bring it back to Dragon Age I choose Leliana as the Divine, and she easily makes the most changes to the Chantry of the three options. So easy on the accusations, since you're obviously terrible at reading people or their motives/ideals/etc. I'm asking for an example of "gradual change". I already know what you think drastic change looks like.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 1:33:18 GMT
You want an example? Fine. The French Revolution started by wanting freedom from an absolute monarch, but ended with an emperor who was more of an absolute monarchist than the king before ever was. That alone makes it a failure, not to mention the countless atrocities committed on the populace during those years. And no, I support change. I just don't support change that involves butchering innocent people because unlike some I actually care about others instead of just myself. Heck, to bring it back to Dragon Age I choose Leliana as the Divine, and she easily makes the most changes to the Chantry of the three options. So easy on the accusations, since you're obviously terrible at reading people or their motives/ideals/etc. I'm asking for an example of "gradual change". I already know what you think drastic change looks like. Gandhi's movement, the American Civil Rights Movement under Martin Luther King Jr, the Singing Revolution (non violent revolution that achieved independence for the Baltic nations from the Soviet Union), etc.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 1:47:36 GMT
I'm asking for an example of "gradual change". I already know what you think drastic change looks like. Gandhi's movement, the American Civil Rights Movement under Martin Luther King Jr, the Singing Revolution (non violent revolution that achieved independence for the Baltic nations from the Soviet Union), etc. So is the main difference that "drastic" change is violent and "gradual" change is non-violent? Are we saying, then, that people who want change should not prepare themselves or defend themselves against violence? Are we ignoring the fact that many peaceful protest movements are met with disproportionate violence? In Asunder, the mages only made a motion to vote to leave the Chantry, not to declare war on it. And they don't even get to *have* that vote before Lambert attacks. There was an opportunity for separation to occur peacefully, but the enforcers of the status quo would not allow it. So what are oppressed people/groups supposed to do in that instance?
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Quickpaw on Jun 19, 2020 2:04:04 GMT
I'm asking for an example of "gradual change". I already know what you think drastic change looks like. Gandhi's movement, the American Civil Rights Movement under Martin Luther King Jr, the Singing Revolution (non violent revolution that achieved independence for the Baltic nations from the Soviet Union), etc. You think the MLK-led civil rights movement was "gradual, non-violent?"
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 2:08:49 GMT
Gandhi's movement, the American Civil Rights Movement under Martin Luther King Jr, the Singing Revolution (non violent revolution that achieved independence for the Baltic nations from the Soviet Union), etc. You think the MLK-led civil rights movement was "gradual, non-violent?" It should go without saying that I wasn't counting the Black Panthers and Malcolm X among it, only referring to the parts that weren't violent. How about my other examples?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 2:21:12 GMT
Gandhi's movement, the American Civil Rights Movement under Martin Luther King Jr, the Singing Revolution (non violent revolution that achieved independence for the Baltic nations from the Soviet Union), etc. So is the main difference that "drastic" change is violent and "gradual" change is non-violent? Are we saying, then, that people who want change should not prepare themselves or defend themselves against violence? Are we ignoring the fact that many peaceful protest movements are met with disproportionate violence? In Asunder, the mages only made a motion to vote to leave the Chantry, not to declare war on it. And they don't even get to *have* that vote before Lambert attacks. There was an opportunity for separation to occur peacefully, but the enforcers of the status quo would not allow it. So what are oppressed people/groups supposed to do in that instance? Considering the definition of drastic is "acting rapidly or violently", yes that is among the main difference. Also preparing to defend yourselves (though not too far as to give justification for the actions of the aggressors) is different than going around pillaging, raping, murdering, etc. Some mages were like that. There were also those like Adrian who joined the ranks of people like Anders, the Resolutionists, the mage who tried to assassinate Justinia (whom if they didn't do what they did would have sided with them anyway), etc who were committing violent acts to spark a war for their independence.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 3:07:08 GMT
You think the MLK-led civil rights movement was "gradual, non-violent?" It should go without saying that I wasn't counting the Black Panthers and Malcolm X among it, only referring to the parts that weren't violent. How about my other examples? *cough*Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were painted as violent and inciters of race war by the media of the time but modern day analysis suggests that portrayal was less than accurate*coughcough*
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 3:20:26 GMT
So is the main difference that "drastic" change is violent and "gradual" change is non-violent? Are we saying, then, that people who want change should not prepare themselves or defend themselves against violence? Are we ignoring the fact that many peaceful protest movements are met with disproportionate violence? In Asunder, the mages only made a motion to vote to leave the Chantry, not to declare war on it. And they don't even get to *have* that vote before Lambert attacks. There was an opportunity for separation to occur peacefully, but the enforcers of the status quo would not allow it. So what are oppressed people/groups supposed to do in that instance? Considering the definition of drastic is "acting rapidly or violently", yes that is among the main difference. Also preparing to defend yourselves (though not too far as to give justification for the actions of the aggressors) is different than going around pillaging, raping, murdering, etc. Some mages were like that. There were also those like Adrian who joined the ranks of people like Anders, the Resolutionists, the mage who tried to assassinate Justinia (whom if they didn't do what they did would have sided with them anyway), etc who were committing violent acts to spark a war for their independence. And how do you meaningfully separate the two? Especially given that Lambert himself makes no distinction? You use the Civil Rights movement as an example of successful peaceful protest, but it's not actually possible to know HOW MUCH of its success is owed to Martin Luther King Jr. and his peaceful protests/speeches, and how much is owed to riots and violence. The Bill of Civil Rights wasn't passed into law until several months after King's assassination, which sparked MASSIVE violent riots/protests. If everyone had just been cowed into silence instead, do you really think the Bill of Civil Rights would have passed? As Quickpaw has pointed out, 'change' never happens quickly AT ALL, and people who fight for change have to keep fighting to make sure the change they wanted sticks. We are seeing this NOW, with governments all over the world trying to roll back protections for LGBT communities, racial minorities, immigrants, etc. And if a system is violent to begin with, as oppressive systems often are, why shouldn't the oppressed be violent back? Because people might die? What sort of question is that, if people are dying already? How many deaths do there HAVE to be before someone is allowed to hit back at the authorities that are systematically imprisoning and killing them? Why should the mages have had to wait for a Divine to be on their side? Why should the Chantry get any say in the lives of mages to begin with? Violence is how the Chantry acheived its dominance of Thedas in the first place, so if violent change is bad and wrong, then how far back are we allowed to take this blame game?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 19, 2020 3:30:07 GMT
To make an omelette you have to break a few eggs.
I used to think more like Hanako. But with all the horrible shit going on, I'm at the point where I see that in order for there to be actual change, there has to be a big catalyst.
Back to Dragon Age...
This doesn't change my RP or how my Hawke responds, but on a meta level I now agree with Anders's actions.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 3:35:13 GMT
To make an omelette you have to break a few eggs. I used to think more like Hanako. But with all the horrible shit going on, I'm at the point where I see that in order for there to be actual change, there has to be a big catalyst. Back to Dragon Age... This doesn't change my RP or how my Hawke responds, but on a meta level I now agree with Anders's actions. History disagrees with you. So you support terrorism and mass murdering innocents. Good to know.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 3:42:50 GMT
Considering the definition of drastic is "acting rapidly or violently", yes that is among the main difference. Also preparing to defend yourselves (though not too far as to give justification for the actions of the aggressors) is different than going around pillaging, raping, murdering, etc. Some mages were like that. There were also those like Adrian who joined the ranks of people like Anders, the Resolutionists, the mage who tried to assassinate Justinia (whom if they didn't do what they did would have sided with them anyway), etc who were committing violent acts to spark a war for their independence. And how do you meaningfully separate the two? Especially given that Lambert himself makes no distinction? You use the Civil Rights movement as an example of successful peaceful protest, but it's not actually possible to know HOW MUCH of its success is owed to Martin Luther King Jr. and his peaceful protests/speeches, and how much is owed to riots and violence. The Bill of Civil Rights wasn't passed into law until several months after King's assassination, which sparked MASSIVE violent riots/protests. If everyone had just been cowed into silence instead, do you really think the Bill of Civil Rights would have passed? As Quickpaw has pointed out, 'change' never happens quickly AT ALL, and people who fight for change have to keep fighting to make sure the change they wanted sticks. We are seeing this NOW, with governments all over the world trying to roll back protections for LGBT communities, racial minorities, immigrants, etc. And if a system is violent to begin with, as oppressive systems often are, why shouldn't the oppressed be violent back? Because people might die? What sort of question is that, if people are dying already? How many deaths do there HAVE to be before someone is allowed to hit back at the authorities that are systematically imprisoning and killing them? Why should the mages have had to wait for a Divine to be on their side? Why should the Chantry get any say in the lives of mages to begin with? Violence is how the Chantry acheived its dominance of Thedas in the first place, so if violent change is bad and wrong, then how far back are we allowed to take this blame game? You need to check your facts. First, the one bill you're referring to was passed only a week after he was assassinated. Second, that was not the first CXivil Rights Act passed, with others passed earlier like the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Quickpaw is wrong. So your response is to cause more people to die, including the murder of people who had nothing to do with it?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 3:49:42 GMT
And you feel comfortable asserting this due to your extensive acsdemic research into revolutionary movements including that study you can't remember the name of? Or perhaps because of your own personal history of participating in social rights movements? The US government literally rolled back existing protections for trans individuals THIS WEEK, granting healthcare practitioners the right to deny healthcare to transgender patients. So what's your argument? That changes never get rolled back? Because clearly they do. Or are you saying that they shouldn't be fought for? Because that's the only reason anyone had them in the first place. Prove that less people would die if no one acted. Prove it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 3:53:36 GMT
And you feel comfortable asserting this due to your extensive acsdemic research into revolutionary movements including that study you can't remember the name of? Or perhaps because of your own personal history of participating in social rights movements? The US government literally rolled back existing protections for trans individuals THIS WEEK, granting healthcare practitioners the right to deny healthcare to transgender patients. So what's your argument? That changes never get rolled back? Because clearly they do. Or are you saying that they shouldn't be fought for? Because that's the only reason anyone had them in the first place. Prove that less people would die if no one acted. Prove it. This week also had the US Supreme Court make it law that people can't discriminate at the workplace due to being LGBTQ+. And no, I never said they shouldn't fight for their rights. However fighting for your rights doesn't need to be actual war. Also yes I do feel confident asserting that and have done both those things you mentioned. Prove that more would die if violent action wasn't used. Prove it.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 3:53:43 GMT
Also, the week after MLK was assassinated was the Holy Week Uprising, and you can't prove that the Civil Rights movement would have succeeded without violence because we don't have access to an alternate timeline where the Civil Rights movement was wholly non-violent.
So my point stands.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
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pessimistpanda
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April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 3:54:36 GMT
Prove that more would die if violent action wasn't used. Prove it. I'm not making that claim.
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