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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 3:54:54 GMT
Also, the week after MLK was assassinated was the Holy Week Uprising, and you can't prove that the Civil Rights movement would have succeeded without violence because we don't have access to an alternate timeline where the Civil Rights movement was wholly non-violent. So my point stands. If you ignore the facts against you, which you clearly are, then yes your point stands.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 4:24:28 GMT
Also, the week after MLK was assassinated was the Holy Week Uprising, and you can't prove that the Civil Rights movement would have succeeded without violence because we don't have access to an alternate timeline where the Civil Rights movement was wholly non-violent. So my point stands. If you ignore the facts against you, which you clearly are, then yes your point stands. You haven't provided any facts, you just keep telling me that there are some but, oh no, what a shame, you can't remember where they came from, but they definitely exist, yessirree!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 4:34:23 GMT
If you ignore the facts against you, which you clearly are, then yes your point stands. You haven't provided any facts, you just keep telling me that there are some but, oh no, what a shame, you can't remember where they came from, but they definitely exist, yessirree! I cited specific things like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 being passed before MLK's death, as well as other instances such as the Singing Revolution, both evidence against your points but you keep conveniently skipping those parts of my post. So really, there's no point even continuing this if you're just going to ignore everything that goes against your confirmation bias.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 19, 2020 4:43:27 GMT
Can y'all stop talking about real world stuff and get back to Dragon Age? This is just an assumption. The game shows only templars and Elthina in and outside of the Chantry. In addition, it's evening and there are few people around (which we know from the rest of the game).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 4:50:31 GMT
Can y'all stop talking about real world stuff and get back to Dragon Age? This is just an assumption. The game shows only templars and Elthina in and outside of the Chantry. In addition, it's evening and there are few people around (which we know from the rest of the game). It's not an assumption. It is stated that his blast killed over a hundred people, both those in the Chantry itself as well as from the debris that rained across the city. Also so everyone affiliated with a group are guilty of the crimes of a few in that group so all are fair game?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 19, 2020 5:30:42 GMT
It is stated that his blast killed over a hundred people Where? Also so everyone affiliated with a group are guilty of the crimes of a few in that group so all are fair game? See previous omelette remark. So how exactly should the mages have gone about getting better conditions? The mage oppression -- taking children, beatings, rapes, solitary confinement, forced tranquility, murder -- has been going on for centuries. At some point, it seems like you're saying mage lives are less valuable[*] than those Anders killed for the possibility that the mage oppression would end instead of going on indefinitely (with more taking of children, beatings, rapes, solitary confinement, forced tranquility, and murder). In Asunder, the mages only made a motion to vote to leave the Chantry, not to declare war on it. And they don't even get to *have* that vote before Lambert attacks. There was an opportunity for separation to occur peacefully, but the enforcers of the status quo would not allow it. So what are oppressed people/groups supposed to do in that instance? Not disagreeing with your point here, but I am confused because it seems contradictory from what we know if the Chantry's Circle system in southern Thedas. (I have read Asunder, but it's been years.) You're lauding the potential of the vote, but there is no indication that the Chantry would honor it. "We really want to keep the mages locked up, but, oh darn, they voted against that. Oh well!" * Yes, I know this looks like I'm saying #MageLivesMatter! It is NOT my intention at all to make that reference, as I believe that would trivialize the real-world BLM movement. I just couldn't think of another way to phrase my thoughts on the matter without it looking like that reference.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 5:57:14 GMT
Not disagreeing with your point here, but I am confused because it seems contradictory from what we know if the Chantry's Circle system in southern Thedas. (I have read Asunder, but it's been years.) You're lauding the potential of the vote, but there is no indication that the Chantry would honor it. "We really want to keep the mages locked up, but, oh darn, they voted against that. Oh well!" Oh, the Chantry almost certainly would not have honoured it, peaceful separation from the Chantry was never *really* an option. I think this whole notion of "peaceful" vs "violent" change or "drastic" vs "gradual" change is complete nonsense from the start. Change happens in whatever way it has to, and whether it was "drastic" or "gradual" or "violent" or "peaceful" is entirely a matter of perspective For what it's worth, my two cents is that change is constant, and inevitable. Revolutions don't just pop up from nowhere, they are always couched in a historical context, they always spring from extended periods of suffering, oppression and, surprise, violence. Complaining that a particular change happened the wrong way is, to put it kindly, very silly. It's like pulling on a rubber band until it snaps, and then crying when it hits you in the eye.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 6:01:40 GMT
It is stated that his blast killed over a hundred people Where? Also so everyone affiliated with a group are guilty of the crimes of a few in that group so all are fair game? See previous omelette remark. So how exactly should the mages have gone about getting better conditions? The mage oppression -- taking children, beatings, rapes, solitary confinement, forced tranquility, murder -- has been going on for centuries. At some point, it seems like you're saying mage lives are less valuable[*] than those Anders killed for the possibility that the mage oppression would end instead of going on indefinitely (with more taking of children, beatings, rapes, solitary confinement, forced tranquility, and murder). * Yes, I know this looks like I'm saying #MageLivesMatter! It is NOT my intention at all to make that reference, as I believe that would trivialize the real-world BLM movement. I just couldn't think of another way to phrase my thoughts on the matter without it looking like that reference. Vivienne: "Kirkwall gave the world a reason to remember its fear of mages. A mage killed hundreds with a snap of their fingers." As for the rest, that's disgusting. And no, I'm not saying that (I side with the Mages every game). But the people in the Chantry, the civilians caught in the cxrossfire, the mages and Templars who wanted no part of this war, their lives are valuable as well so how can you oppose one atrocity but support another? Since you mention BLM, I haven't seen them, other than the occasional lunatic whom the others immediately oppose, promote "Kill all the cops and those who work with them" which is what you are supporting in this scenario.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 19, 2020 9:14:35 GMT
Please keep the discussion DA-related. As I said in the disclaimer, the reference wasn't intentional. I noticed after I had written it out but before posting in the thread. I wanted to head off any notion that I was trivializing BLM. That's the only reason I mentioned it at all. their lives are valuable as well so how can you oppose one atrocity but support another? I don't "support" it in that I'm happy it happened. I think it was a necessary evil to force the change that needed to happen. And again I ask: how exactly should the mages have gone about getting better conditions?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 9:29:50 GMT
Please keep the discussion DA-related. As I said in the disclaimer, the reference wasn't intentional. I noticed after I had written it out but before posting in the thread. I wanted to head off any notion that I was trivializing BLM. That's the only reason I mentioned it at all. their lives are valuable as well so how can you oppose one atrocity but support another? I don't "support" it in that I'm happy it happened. I think it was a necessary evil to force the change that needed to happen. And again I ask: how exactly should the mages have gone about getting better conditions? You’re the one who brought them up, so follow your own advice. And no, this disclaimer of your disclaimer doesn’t change that. It’s still disgusting that you support terrorism and mass murder of innocents. I actually had respect for you but that’s gone now. And what’s the point in trying to explain when you think that was acceptable? You’ve already dismissed any other option by that logic, so there’s no point. I will say one thing they should have gone about it: not doing what you are supporting. Doing that does nothing but make everyone hate them and justify any retaliation measures. If it wasn’t for Solas and Corypheus, the mages would have been wiped out and all future mages treated far worse than they were before.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 9:45:45 GMT
Unless the mages won, and established themselves as the new dominant power in Thedas.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 9:48:31 GMT
Unless the mages won, and established themselves as the new dominant power in Thedas. They would have never won. Even if they defeated the Templars, they’d have the armies of every nation against them in force, while every civilian would be doing witch hunts. And why shouldn’t they? They’re just defending themselves from abuses, the same justification that the mages used.
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 19, 2020 9:53:19 GMT
This all goes back to my original point. Gradual change is ideal, but it's not always an option. When those in power have a vested interest in preserving the status quo, gradual change goes nowhere as we saw both before and after the Annulment of the Gallows. At some point more drastic measures are needed. Keep in mind that by all rights the Circle's status quo should have fallen centuries ago when the first illegal Annulment happened, but it was covered up.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 9:58:17 GMT
This all goes back to my original point. Gradual change is ideal, but it's not always an option. When those in power have a vested interest in preserving the status quo, gradual change goes nowhere as we saw both before and after the Annulment of the Gallows. At some point more drastic measures are needed. Keep in mind that by all rights the Circle's status quo should have fallen centuries ago when the first illegal Annulment happened, but it was covered up. It’s always an option. That’s why those who wanted war (Anders, Adrian, Lambert, etc) committed their acts: to try to hide that option leaving only what they wanted.
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 19, 2020 10:06:03 GMT
This all goes back to my original point. Gradual change is ideal, but it's not always an option. When those in power have a vested interest in preserving the status quo, gradual change goes nowhere as we saw both before and after the Annulment of the Gallows. At some point more drastic measures are needed. Keep in mind that by all rights the Circle's status quo should have fallen centuries ago when the first illegal Annulment happened, but it was covered up. It’s always an option. That’s why those who wanted war (Anders, Adrian, Lambert, etc) committed their acts: to try to hide that option leaving only what they wanted. Anders tried for six years to affect gradual change, reserving violence for life-or-death scenarios. For his troubles he only saw the situation get worse because Meredith and Elthina had all the power. Same thing after the Annulment of the Gallows, which I would like to remind everyone was illegal. Thanks to Wynne, the mages clamped down on their first instinct to rebel in response to such an egregious abuse of Templar power. For their trouble the Templars decided that all mages needed to be punished for the actions of one. Every attempt at peaceful change failed, and not just because of the actions of people like Anders and Adrian. They failed because ultimately, all the mages' supposed powers to decide internal policy of the Circle was an illusion.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 10:10:51 GMT
Unless the mages won, and established themselves as the new dominant power in Thedas. They would have never won. Even if they defeated the Templars, they’d have the armies of every nation against them in force, while every civilian would be doing witch hunts. And why shouldn’t they? They’re just defending themselves from abuses, the same justification that the mages used. Not necessarily. The combined forces of the Circles are not insubstantial, and certain nations like Rivain and Nevarra have a different relationship with mages and magic and might even decide to side with the mages. The few Circles we've seen are well-fortified, and easy to defend. The mages have advanced ranged combat capability, not to mention healing and defensive techniques. They were able to fight back well enough against the Templars and the Seekers to GET independence in the first place, and they could offer the benefits of their magic to the rulers of various nations in exchange for aid. Some might be sympathetic, and some would absolutely be unscrupulous enough to take that deal. Even when the Chantry was in control, people in positions of power like Loghain and Celene acquired the services of mages in direct contravention of Chantry law. Not to mention orgs like the mage underground, which have established networks outside of Chantry control that have been operating for a long time. We don't actually know what the mages are fully capable of. For just one mage of decent skill, a civilian rabble would not be an issue, Mr. Torch and Mrs. Pitchfork aren't much of a match for chain lightning. Or they can win the support of the locals through performing healing services and shit. Or, you know, it's a fantasy universe, and the writers could just have a mage trip over the Amulet of Du'eni'thynge. It wouldn't be the first time in Dragon Age that a scruffy underdog triumphed against overwhelming odds.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 19, 2020 10:21:34 GMT
They would have never won. Even if they defeated the Templars, they’d have the armies of every nation against them in force, while every civilian would be doing witch hunts. And why shouldn’t they? They’re just defending themselves from abuses, the same justification that the mages used. Not necessarily. The combined forces of the Circles are not insubstantial, and certain nations like Rivain and Nevarra have a different relationship with mages and magic and might even decide to side with the mages. The few Circles we've seen are well-fortified, and easy to defend. The mages have advanced ranged combat capability, not to mention healing and defensive techniques. They were able to fight back well enough against the Templars and the Seekers to GET independence in the first place, and they could offer the benefits of their magic to the rulers of various nations in exchange for aid. Some might be sympathetic, and some would absolutely be unscrupulous enough to take that deal. Even when the Chantry was in control, people in positions of power like Loghain and Celene acquired the services of mages in direct contravention of Chantry law. Not to mention orgs like the mage underground, which have established networks outside of Chantry control that have been operating for a long time. We don't actually know what the mages are fully capable of. For just one mage of decent skill, a civilian rabble would not be an issue, Mr. Torch and Mrs. Pitchfork aren't much of a match for chain lightning. Or they can win the support of the locals through performing healing services and shit. Or, you know, it's a fantasy universe, and the writers could just have a mage trip over the Amulet of Du'eni'thynge. It wouldn't be the first time in Dragon Age that a scruffy underdog triumphed against overwhelming odds. The lore goes against these assumptions. After all the Circles were originally made half to protect mages who were being slaughtered by these non-threats of yours. And then of course there is the Qun, which would definitely get involved and with things in such a chaotic state what few mages would be left wouldn’t be able to stand against them. And then there’s the Darkspawn. And so on and so forth. Sorry, but your scenario is a fantasy in a fantasy.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 10:31:22 GMT
Not necessarily. The combined forces of the Circles are not insubstantial, and certain nations like Rivain and Nevarra have a different relationship with mages and magic and might even decide to side with the mages. The few Circles we've seen are well-fortified, and easy to defend. The mages have advanced ranged combat capability, not to mention healing and defensive techniques. They were able to fight back well enough against the Templars and the Seekers to GET independence in the first place, and they could offer the benefits of their magic to the rulers of various nations in exchange for aid. Some might be sympathetic, and some would absolutely be unscrupulous enough to take that deal. Even when the Chantry was in control, people in positions of power like Loghain and Celene acquired the services of mages in direct contravention of Chantry law. Not to mention orgs like the mage underground, which have established networks outside of Chantry control that have been operating for a long time. We don't actually know what the mages are fully capable of. For just one mage of decent skill, a civilian rabble would not be an issue, Mr. Torch and Mrs. Pitchfork aren't much of a match for chain lightning. Or they can win the support of the locals through performing healing services and shit. Or, you know, it's a fantasy universe, and the writers could just have a mage trip over the Amulet of Du'eni'thynge. It wouldn't be the first time in Dragon Age that a scruffy underdog triumphed against overwhelming odds. The lore goes against these assumptions. After all the Circles were originally made half to protect mages who were being slaughtered by these non-threats of yours. And then of course there is the Qun, which would definitely get involved and with things in such a chaotic state what few mages would be left wouldn’t be able to stand against them. And then there’s the Darkspawn. And so on and so forth. Sorry, but your scenario is a fantasy in a àpl..hq. Lol, you're right, I'm sorry, there is absolutely NO difference between a scared little girl who lit a barn on fire by accident and an adult who has been training in fire magic for thirty years. And it's not as if a cornered mage could, in an act of desperation, slash a knife across their hand and summon a demon to do the dirty work for them. That would NEVER happen. I straight-up reject your assertion that the Qun would get involved in the conflict, beyond perhaps using the chaos to insert their own sleeper agents to be activated at a later time. The mages and templars were at war for three years between the events of DA2 and Inquisition, and the Qun did NOTHING about it. Which brings me to another point: the mages were doing well ENOUGH, even if they weren't winning, that it had become necessary for all parties to meet and broker for peace. If the mages are so easy to wipe out, they already would have been. As for the darkspawn, who gives a shit? What are you on about? Lol, my scenario is a fantasy? Remind me again what the GENRE of this series is?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 19, 2020 10:51:03 GMT
The few Circles we've seen are well-fortified, and easy to defend. You had me until this bit. What about food? If they hole up in a circle, the templar army could just starve them out.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 19, 2020 10:57:49 GMT
The few Circles we've seen are well-fortified, and easy to defend. You had me until this bit. What about food? If they hole up in a circle, the templar army could just starve them out. I'm sure the viability of surviving a siege varies from circle to Circle. The Orlesian circle I seem to remember is a repurposed palace. If it has gardens, repurpose them to grow food. But I was speaking in generalities, not necessarily outlining what I would personally do if I was taking the time to sit down and think about this. Frankly, I consider it a futile exercise. The only determining factor in who would win between the mages and templars is author conceit.
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Post by yarus on Apr 30, 2021 18:37:00 GMT
My reading of this is that it's supposed to be what Celene and her supporters believe, either because they honestly believe it or because it's what they tell themselves to justify keeping things "stable." I'd been under the impression that the Inquisitor (and the players) were meant to decide whether or not it's wise. Which is fine... except that we were also told that we were participating in "the great game", that Celene is a political mastermind, etc etc. We keep being told how skilled and intelligent Celene and other characters must be, to keep their positions of power, but when it comes time to show us anything, the best BioWare can do is empty rhetoric that would be thrown out of a high school debate. And the infuriating thing is it works, and people in here are genuinely saying stupid shit like "But Celene HAD to commit genocide, don't you see? She was satirised in a play!" I don't know if I loved or hated the Masked Empire for crystalizing how vain and shallow Celene is for that theatre scene. Remache's/Gaspard's criticisms of Celene were 100% right, her unwillingness to separate personal affairs from matters of state. How is considering executing a theater company or setting fire to a city a proportional response? It's insane. Celene is insane. Regarding the wider discussion of gradual change vs radical change, wouldn't that depend on the leader and context? For example, with leaders like Vivienne as Divine or Bhelen as King --- yeah, they're not only needed, but those two options are probably the best mages and dwarves are going to get. But for Orlais? Celene and Briala are insane. Gaspard, to his credit, at least hates the Game more than he hates Celene. Orlais's culture of backstabbing and betrayal isn't sustainable
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 30, 2021 19:18:55 GMT
Which is fine... except that we were also told that we were participating in "the great game", that Celene is a political mastermind, etc etc. We keep being told how skilled and intelligent Celene and other characters must be, to keep their positions of power, but when it comes time to show us anything, the best BioWare can do is empty rhetoric that would be thrown out of a high school debate. And the infuriating thing is it works, and people in here are genuinely saying stupid shit like "But Celene HAD to commit genocide, don't you see? She was satirised in a play!" I don't know if I loved or hated the Masked Empire for crystalizing how vain and shallow Celene is for that theatre scene. Remache's/Gaspard's criticisms of Celene were 100% right, her unwillingness to separate personal affairs from matters of state. How is considering executing a theater company or setting fire to a city a proportional response? It's insane. Celene is insane. Regarding the wider discussion of gradual change vs radical change, wouldn't that depend on the leader and context? For example, with leaders like Vivienne as Divine or Bhelen as King --- yeah, they're not only needed, but those two options are probably the best mages and dwarves are going to get. But for Orlais? Celene and Briala are insane. Gaspard, to his credit, at least hates the Game more than he hates Celene. Orlais's culture of backstabbing and betrayal isn't sustainable I recall the Game being being pretty much dropped regardless of which person you supported. As you said that kind of thing isn't sustainable, and the Orlesians realized that after Florianne used it to almost kill them all.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 1, 2021 2:29:15 GMT
Which is fine... except that we were also told that we were participating in "the great game", that Celene is a political mastermind, etc etc. We keep being told how skilled and intelligent Celene and other characters must be, to keep their positions of power, but when it comes time to show us anything, the best BioWare can do is empty rhetoric that would be thrown out of a high school debate. And the infuriating thing is it works, and people in here are genuinely saying stupid shit like "But Celene HAD to commit genocide, don't you see? She was satirised in a play!" I don't know if I loved or hated the Masked Empire for crystalizing how vain and shallow Celene is for that theatre scene. Remache's/Gaspard's criticisms of Celene were 100% right, her unwillingness to separate personal affairs from matters of state. How is considering executing a theater company or setting fire to a city a proportional response? It's insane. Celene is insane. Regarding the wider discussion of gradual change vs radical change, wouldn't that depend on the leader and context? For example, with leaders like Vivienne as Divine or Bhelen as King --- yeah, they're not only needed, but those two options are probably the best mages and dwarves are going to get. But for Orlais? Celene and Briala are insane. Gaspard, to his credit, at least hates the Game more than he hates Celene. Orlais's culture of backstabbing and betrayal isn't sustainable I don't really consider Vivienne to be any more stable than Celene, she's a hypocrite who preaches "responsibility", but uses her magic to publicly assault a man she doesn't like in the very first scene where we meet her. Plus, I think her epilogue makes it clear that she is very bad for mages, much worse than Cassandra.
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Post by xerrai on May 1, 2021 3:43:19 GMT
I don't know if I loved or hated the Masked Empire for crystalizing how vain and shallow Celene is for that theatre scene. Remache's/Gaspard's criticisms of Celene were 100% right, her unwillingness to separate personal affairs from matters of state. How is considering executing a theater company or setting fire to a city a proportional response? It's insane. Celene is insane. Regarding the wider discussion of gradual change vs radical change, wouldn't that depend on the leader and context? For example, with leaders like Vivienne as Divine or Bhelen as King --- yeah, they're not only needed, but those two options are probably the best mages and dwarves are going to get. But for Orlais? Celene and Briala are insane. Gaspard, to his credit, at least hates the Game more than he hates Celene. Orlais's culture of backstabbing and betrayal isn't sustainable I recall the Game being being pretty much dropped regardless of which person you supported. As you said that kind of thing isn't sustainable, and the Orlesians realized that after Florianne used it to almost kill them all. It shouldn't be sustainable, but in-game history begs to differ. The Game has been around and going strong ever since the nation's founding, and even though some rulers have tried to stamp it out (like Emperor Drakon), they only caused the Game to go on pause for a little while or change its shape. If the game wasn't as sustainable as some people claim, Orlais should have fallen ages ago....but it hasn't. It's been going on for roughly 900 years. The mere existence of Orlais as not only an existing country, but a powerful country, kinda discredits the idea that Orlais's treacherous culture should have cannibalized itself by now. Even the Inquisition and Florianne will not change that. Even with how close she came to taking over and destroying the empire, the implications of her almost-actions will be lost to those in power precisely because she lost. She tried to make a big gambit for power and was killed. At a party. Where the Game was in full swing. By people playing the Game. In their minds, The Great Game is working as intended. And even without the Game as a factor, it would be so easy for people to dismiss Florianne as a one-time case that can never be replicated. How likely is it that an orlesian noble would align themselves with an evil darksawn magister and attempt to destroy the empire from within? People lost their reverence for the Inquisition in less than 2 years after dealing with Corypheaus and saving the world. How long do you think it will take nobles to forget that their entire was almost brought down by a single woman? It's unfortunate, but The Game is probably going to remain prevalent in the Empire regardless of what the Inquisition did.
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