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Post by biggydx on Jun 9, 2020 2:29:30 GMT
The idea of requiring a minimum player level, in order to complete certain content, is nothing new to video games. However, if grinding is a necessity to achieve said levels, making players feel as though they have to complete side content, then you start seeing complaints arise. This was more commonly seen in Assassins Creed: Odyssey and Origins, the former of which even had a XP/Gold booster you could buy to supersede some of the level requirements of specific missions. Dragon Age: Inquisition, though not to hotly criticized, also had some complaints about areas being of specific levels.
I remember playing a game called Days Gone last year (an open world, Zombie horror game), and one of the things that made it different than some other open-world games is that there was never a hard-set enemy level, or areas that restricted you via your level. Enemies simply became more challenging (through new enemy archetypes), or you had to fight off significantly more zombies at a time.
I'm kinda curious as to what route people think the game should take in this regard.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 9, 2020 3:09:27 GMT
I guess I'm not particularly opposed to level requirements. If you're going to populate an area with monsters that will wipe the floor with my face, advance warning is appreciated.
But I'd prefer they don't put so much focus on an open world this time anyway.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 9, 2020 3:41:14 GMT
People do complain about the weirdest things...
Though really I've never really been a fan of having any enemies with level requirements. It raises more problems then it solves and ME was just fine letting your character level up and progress without knowing how theoretically powerful the enemy mooks are.
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 9, 2020 4:05:24 GMT
I don’t know about level requirements, but suggested level guidelines are a good idea, as it allows the devs to design the level appropriately. Plus, it gives the psychopaths who do speed runs an extra challenge.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 9, 2020 5:47:37 GMT
Dragon Age obviously has it's roots in D&D so you can see it where it comes from. But it's soft level-gating, and you can always try punching above your weight class. DA is more forgiving here too than in some other RPGs.
There's a number of things here to consider too...
- What is the overall power curve in the game? Steep or shallow?
- Is combat primarily reliant on player skill/reflexes? Is it reliant on character power and strategy? Or is based on some combination of these?
- How fast do you want your players to advance? Rate of progression is going to be trickier to balance in a big open world game than a linear one. What might seem slow to one player, might be too fast for another. And yes, there are games with way too much grind.
Dragon Age is a game with a fairly steep power curve and reliant on character power and strategy. So having recommended level requirements makes sense. For games with shallow power curves and reliant primarily on player skill/reflexes, then level requirements aren't as needed.
DA's level advancement is on the quicker side too IMO. If you're grinding, it'll likely be for crafting materials and not leveling. I think it's because people were complaining you were leveling too quickly in DA:I that they added the "Take It Slow" Trial (1/2 XP). Even with that I'm maxed out before the end of the game.
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Post by Gileadan on Jun 9, 2020 5:57:20 GMT
It depends on how level differences between you and enemy NPCs factor into the combat mechanics. If the level difference acts as a kind of bonus to offense and defense, making higher level enemies harder to fight through the level difference alone (and not, say, simply because a higher level means more abilities and/or hitpoints), then the player should be alerted of that level difference somehow, but not being prevented from entering a higher level area anyway.
I personally don't like using level difference as a combat mechanics modifier and would greatly prefer it merely meaning more skills, faster reactions and greater toughness instead of acting directly as some kind of armor and damage multiplier.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 9, 2020 6:11:48 GMT
I don't think there should be level requirements at all. To me, it seems like player hand-holding, which I want to reduce as much as possible. And I say this as someone who plays the games on easy mode. I don't think of this regarding game difficulty, but of enabling the player to just use their damn brain; be observant; pay attention to the game going on in front of their eyeballs. That said, I'd prefer level scaling. I always turn that on in the DAI trials, even if I don't use anything else. If you're going to populate an area with monsters that will wipe the floor with my face, advance warning is appreciated. I think the "warning" is the key word here. Perhaps the map info could state a level range. There is the warning; people can heed it, or not. I'm sure there are people who would eagerly try for Nightmare+++ with a level 10 character on a level 15-20 map. Let them do it if they want.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 9, 2020 7:23:43 GMT
Dragon Age obviously has it's roots in D&D so you can see it where it comes from. But it's soft level-gating, and you can always try punching above your weight class. DA is more forgiving here too than in some other RPGs. There's a number of things here to consider too... - What is the overall power curve in the game? Steep or shallow? - Is combat primarily reliant on player skill/reflexes? Is it reliant on character power and strategy? Or is based on some combination of these? - How fast do you want your players to advance? Rate of progression is going to be trickier to balance in a big open world game than a linear one. What might seem slow to one player, might be too fast for another. And yes, there are games with way too much grind. Dragon Age is a game with a fairly steep power curve and reliant on character power and strategy. So having recommended level requirements makes sense. For games with shallow power curves and reliant primarily on player skill/reflexes, then level requirements aren't as needed. DA's level advancement is on the quicker side too IMO. If you're grinding, it'll likely be for crafting materials and not leveling. I think it's because people were complaining you were leveling too quickly in DA:I that they added the "Take It Slow" Trial (1/2 XP). Even with that I'm maxed out before the end of the game. That is actually a really unique and hepful insight and way of looking at it. Explains why ME didn't need level caps for such things. Something to think about moving forward.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jun 9, 2020 10:53:45 GMT
People do complain about the weirdest things... Though really I've never really been a fan of having any enemies with level requirements. It raises more problems then it solves and ME was just fine letting your character level up and progress without knowing how theoretically powerful the enemy mooks are. I think it's a fair question. While it is very easy to get "power" in DAI. You still have to do some side quests to get "power". No other BioWare game as that kind of requirement to advance the story. The closest is probably ME3, but even then it doesn't require a point system.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 9, 2020 11:59:27 GMT
I don’t know about level requirements, but suggested level guidelines are a good idea, as it allows the devs to design the level appropriately. Plus, it gives the psychopaths who do speed runs an extra challenge. Yeah I agree I think suggested levels aer good like fo rexampl eDAI's DLC's have a general recommend of Level 20. For me I think DAI's bi gmistake was the power requirement feature and by that I mean earn 20power points befoer you can unlock the Western Approach that sort of thing. (I know it's no t20 to unlock it I don' t think as I don' tremember I jus tchose 20 as an example). It's jus tbeen a while since I last played so don' tremember though I'm on a DArun atm so will be playing again soon. I agree with trying to encourage people t odo th esied contentto leve lup some befoer takin gon the harder missions as tha tis sometimes required. It's moer DAI's systems kind of forces it on people rather than encourages it. I don' tmin dtoo much either way as DAI is still one of my favourite games but it is one of the few mistakes imo that Bioware made with it. Either levelling up with the player or having suggested levels can work it jus treally depensd on the game and how well it's been designed.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 9, 2020 15:47:25 GMT
I wouldn’t mind seeing more areas restricted due to the part of the story you are at, so that there can be more reactivity.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jun 9, 2020 16:07:10 GMT
I didn't like the power mechanic because the content to get power is very boring and monotonous compared to the main story. By my 3rd, 4th PTs I don't want to be doing all of that boring side content just to get enough power and level up to advance the story. If I just want to go through the main story to experience that, I should be able to.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 9, 2020 17:12:34 GMT
Absolutely not.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 9, 2020 18:02:20 GMT
It ain't the worst thing in the world.
Then again, if the side quests are going to be crap like Inquisition then I would encourage a scaling system.
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Post by Frost on Jun 10, 2020 0:14:22 GMT
I wouldn’t mind seeing more areas restricted due to the part of the story you are at, so that there can be more reactivity. Agree! I would rather have more reactivity than be able to do anything in any order.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 10, 2020 1:22:16 GMT
Why not have both a level requirement for areas and a level upscaling system.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 10, 2020 1:25:43 GMT
People do complain about the weirdest things... Though really I've never really been a fan of having any enemies with level requirements. It raises more problems then it solves and ME was just fine letting your character level up and progress without knowing how theoretically powerful the enemy mooks are. I think it's a fair question. While it is very easy to get "power" in DAI. You still have to do some side quests to get "power". No other BioWare game as that kind of requirement to advance the story. The closest is probably ME3, but even then it doesn't require a point system. My perspective on this is...side quests or no...if the activities in question are fun and fullfilling why not do them? And its not just easy to get power in Inquisition but absurdly easy. I always finish the game with about 200+ power...and I know I don't do everything...not even close! Which means I can probably do something like 1/20ths of the side quests I do in the game and still have enough power to finish the game. I've always felt that the grind for crafting materials was a lot more omni-present then the grind for power.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jun 10, 2020 1:34:20 GMT
Should there be a level requirement for story missions?
No. My feeling on the matter is that - main - story missions should always be the current level of the character.
Should different areas have level requirements?
This I don't mind, and it allows a way for the game to present an optional challenge for players who would like to take it up.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 10, 2020 2:01:17 GMT
Should there be a level requirement for story missions? No. My feeling on the matter is that - main - story missions should always be the current level of the character. Should different areas have level requirements? This I don't mind, and it allows a way for the game to present an optional challenge for players who would like to take it up. Which would be great for XP and loot farming. (I do that alot in Skyrim)
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 10, 2020 2:44:22 GMT
Some of you are taking "requirements" more loosely than I did, which is that entry into the area is not allowed -- a player is required to be minimum level.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jun 10, 2020 3:28:20 GMT
Some of you are taking "requirements" more loosely than I did, which is that entry into the area is not allowed -- a player is required to be minimum level. I just went off the OP, where they referenced Assassin's Creed Odyssey. You can try to do quests that are above your level. You'll die, almost immediately. But it lets you try.
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Post by Kaibe on Jun 10, 2020 4:54:02 GMT
I guess it depends on how it’s implemented. In Assassin’s Creed Origins/Odyssey I felt like I intentionally had to grind to reach higher levels. The Witcher 3 also had level recommendations, but it didn’t feel like doing side quests was a requirement to advance. But that’s all in regards to advancing the main story. Certain areas bring higher levels I don’t particularly mind.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 10, 2020 7:10:17 GMT
I guess it depends on how it’s implemented. In Assassin’s Creed Origins/Odyssey I felt like I intentionally had to grind to reach higher levels. Ideally, there would be enough side quest content that grinding isn't necessary.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Jun 10, 2020 9:20:51 GMT
Just an idea, but how about level scaling & only getting xp from completing quests? This, in theory allows you to play & complete the game in any way you choose. Want to explore area 'X' first, sure, PT2, maybe explore area 'Y' first, nothing stopping you at all.
Just my thoughts
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 12, 2020 2:48:26 GMT
Gothic baby.
You don't need level restrictions, you just need mean creatures growling at you and letting you know you stand no chance against them until you're strong enough to take them on.
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