inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 22, 2020 11:51:31 GMT
Same with the conversation with Vivienne in Haven. I believe the reason my Inquisitor (Dalish mage) doesn't correct anyone that this isn't true (or at the very least isn't true in all clans) is that the "three mages per clan" is a fallacy that the Dalish let outsiders continue to believe as another way to protect the clans. Here is the thing, though: Minaeve tells us that it happened to her. Are you saying she lied to the Inquisitor? Potentially? There are still other possibilities. She could still play along with that ruse, as unlikely as it might be. She could have been kicked out for other reasons she does not mention. She was 1) pretty young back then and 2) spent more of her lifetime in the circle than among her clan and we know that circle mages are subject to a certain amount of... biased teachings, right?
It is just as valid to assume that the circle bullshitted her, she got lost on transfer to another clan, different clans have different practises or that she is simply giving incomplete info - as to assume that all Dalish are dirtbags who kick out their surplus all of a sudden so the andrastians can point fingers at them and call them monsters. Which is contradictive to what Merrill says in DA2 anyway, besides not making much sense, as an abondoned, frightened and sligthly resentful mage child coming back possessed is what I consider more hassle for a clan than training her as usual. I'm still trying to figure out the reason while this scene was written in the first place, as we did already have lore snippets indicating that clans have different customs, up to the point of "Keepers yellin' at each other". What that scene achieves for me is making the Dalish look like dumb shitheads yet again, and we already have plenty of this notion in DAI, as well as some pre-DAI supplementary material apparently.
|
|
Sokemis
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 876 Likes: 1,827
inherit
9163
0
1,827
Sokemis
876
August 2017
sokemis
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
|
Post by Sokemis on Jun 22, 2020 16:35:26 GMT
Same with the conversation with Vivienne in Haven. I believe the reason my Inquisitor (Dalish mage) doesn't correct anyone that this isn't true (or at the very least isn't true in all clans) is that the "three mages per clan" is a fallacy that the Dalish let outsiders continue to believe as another way to protect the clans. Here is the thing, though: Minaeve tells us that it happened to her. Are you saying she lied to the Inquisitor? Do I think she intentionally lied? No. Do I think it's possible that things didn't happen quite as she remembers or that her clan may be the exception and not the rule (hence the "isn't true in all clans" above)? Yes. Minaeve was a frightened child, possibly somewhat traumatized by what happened (almost dying in the woods, the villagers trying to kill her) and sees the Templars as her saviors. It's possible that she became separated from her clan for another reason. One possibility that comes to mind is she could have been on her way to another clan, but at only 7 may not have fully understood why she had to leave her clan/family. There could have been an attack by bandits/animals, she was told to run and hide and the adults escorting her were killed. Suddenly alone she thinks she was abandoned. Overtime she could have come to believe what the Circle told her: that she was kicked out of her clan because they already had too many mages. (Which thinking about it now, I wouldn't be surprised if the Circles/Chantry encouraged non-Dalish elven mages to believe this. If they thought they wouldn't be accepted into the clans anyway, because the Dalish already had too many mages, then it might dissuade them from trying to run away to the Dalish). On the other hand, things may have happened just as Minaeve described, but I personally think if that's the case that her clan may be an outlier in that regard and not the norm. Maybe they travel in an area with a close Templar presence and have to keep their mage numbers lower to avoid confrontation. Or maybe they were a more isolated clan and did have too many mages (although "too many" may have been 3 or may have been 10) and didn't have a way to contact other clans to send her to. There was evidence in Origins at least to support clans having more than three mages. For example, in Zathrian's clan Lanaya mentions competing with the clan's other mages for the title of First - implying that there were other adolescent/teen mages in the clan. And the halla keeper in that clan is a mage, indicating other possible positions beside Keeper for mages within the clans (I would imagine there are also both magical and non-magical healers within the clans). And I can't remember right now exactly who said what in which game, but I believe it was said that all Dalish children are cherished (as well as is magic) by the Dalish - so I just can't picture them regularly turning a small child out into the wild with nothing more than a little food and a hearty "good luck".
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 22, 2020 18:38:40 GMT
Here is the thing, though: Minaeve tells us that it happened to her. Are you saying she lied to the Inquisitor? Potentially? There are still other possibilities. She could still play along with that ruse, as unlikely as it might be. She could have been kicked out for other reasons she does not mention. She was 1) pretty young back then and 2) spent more of her lifetime in the circle than among her clan and we know that circle mages are subject to a certain amount of... biased teachings, right?
It is just as valid to assume that the circle bullshitted her, she got lost on transfer to another clan, different clans have different practises or that she is simply giving incomplete info - as to assume that all Dalish are dirtbags who kick out their surplus all of a sudden so the andrastians can point fingers at them and call them monsters. Which is contradictive to what Merrill says in DA2 anyway, besides not making much sense, as an abondoned, frightened and sligthly resentful mage child coming back possessed is what I consider more hassle for a clan than training her as usual. I'm still trying to figure out the reason while this scene was written in the first place, as we did already have lore snippets indicating that clans have different customs, up to the point of "Keepers yellin' at each other". What that scene achieves for me is making the Dalish look like dumb shitheads yet again, and we already have plenty of this notion in DAI, as well as some pre-DAI supplementary material apparently.
Given Word Of Gaider saying that the Dalish are starting to become separate peoples in spite of their efforts to remain one, and Solas backing that up in-universe if you ask him about the Dalish, I think we have plenty of evidence that different clans do things differently. And I think that's a pretty good explanation for some Dalish clans kicking out extra mages and Zathrian's clan not doing so. However, I think the rest of it is all a stretch. That dialogue doesn't sound like something Minaeve is parroting from the Circles, and I can't imagine she's mistaken about how she got lost. I'd accept that it was true if actual evidence of that came up, but it strikes me as a step too far barring such evidence. Especially given that Dalish of the Bull's Chargers claims that happened to her too. On topic: My moment is during the scene when Leiliana's ordering the assassination of the traitor Butcher. All of the options amount to either agreeing that Leiliana should kill him (if only tacitly) or arguing that he should be spared. Where's the option for "and try to take him alive if it is reasonably practical?"
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 22, 2020 23:38:42 GMT
riverdaleswhiteflash You are consistently a voice of reasonableness and practicality. (And you can now finally turn that toward DA2 )
|
|
inherit
1274
0
3,016
sageoflife
1,412
August 2016
sageoflife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sageoflife on Jun 23, 2020 0:27:39 GMT
I personally think that Minaeve is telling the truth, but it's like Solas says: clans can be very different from each other.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2020 0:35:25 GMT
Does an elven PC ever get the chance to say "that's not how it works in my clan", in the case of either Minaeve or Dalish?
Because if not, and if no other conflicting information is presented in DAI itself, then it sure seems like a retcon.
And if clans do behave very differently from each other, then why are we given two examples of this rule of three in a single game, but no conflicting examples?
Abandoning children of any kind in the woods also just seems to run totally counter to the supposed overall goal of the Dalish elves to preserve their people and culture. Given their dangerous, nomadic lifestyle, it's easy to imagine that their First and Second could both be lost or killed. "The Heir and The Spare" might make sense in the context of royals who live safely in palaces (although again I'd argue not really, because we have in-game and real historical examples of that not working out), but when you're constantly on the move, and *already* at risk of running into Templars who will take your (supposedly rare and precious) mage children away, cutting them loose to fend for themselves seems very, very stupid.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 23, 2024 17:30:54 GMT
30,246
Hanako Ikezawa
22,353
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2020 1:00:46 GMT
Does an elven PC ever get the chance to say "that's not how it works in my clan", in the case of either Minaeve or Dalish?Because if not, and if no other conflicting information is presented in DAI itself, then it sure seems like a retcon. And if clans do behave very differently from each other, then why are we given two examples of this rule of three in a single game, but no conflicting examples? Abandoning children of any kind in the woods also just seems to run totally counter to the supposed overall goal of the Dalish elves to preserve their people and culture. Given their dangerous, nomadic lifestyle, it's easy to imagine that their First and Second could both be lost or killed. "The Heir and The Spare" might make sense in the context of royals who live safely in palaces (although again I'd argue not really, because we have in-game and real historical examples of that not working out), but when you're constantly on the move, and *already* at risk of running into Templars who will take your (supposedly rare and precious) mage children away, cutting them loose to fend for themselves seems very, very stupid. Yes, they do get to say that.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2020 1:12:51 GMT
Does an elven PC ever get the chance to say "that's not how it works in my clan", in the case of either Minaeve or Dalish?Because if not, and if no other conflicting information is presented in DAI itself, then it sure seems like a retcon. And if clans do behave very differently from each other, then why are we given two examples of this rule of three in a single game, but no conflicting examples? Abandoning children of any kind in the woods also just seems to run totally counter to the supposed overall goal of the Dalish elves to preserve their people and culture. Given their dangerous, nomadic lifestyle, it's easy to imagine that their First and Second could both be lost or killed. "The Heir and The Spare" might make sense in the context of royals who live safely in palaces (although again I'd argue not really, because we have in-game and real historical examples of that not working out), but when you're constantly on the move, and *already* at risk of running into Templars who will take your (supposedly rare and precious) mage children away, cutting them loose to fend for themselves seems very, very stupid. Yes, they do get to say that. Okay, well great. The clans that do it are still stupid though.
|
|
inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 23, 2020 1:59:49 GMT
Given Word Of Gaider saying that the Dalish are starting to become separate peoples in spite of their efforts to remain one, and Solas backing that up in-universe if you ask him about the Dalish, I think we have plenty of evidence that different clans do things differently. And I think that's a pretty good explanation for some Dalish clans kicking out extra mages and Zathrian's clan not doing so. First thing first, three things about "word of Gaider": 1) Source/link? 2) Gaider does not work at BW anymore
3) Some of the things he said don't make too much sense if examined, such as his claim that the Qun would not be "atheist". To me, the Qun is not deistic either. So I think it remains valid to take his comments with a grain of salt at times.
Solas is hardly an unbiased source about the Dalish, and we do not get a genuine Dalish perspective in DAI apart from what Lavellan might say.
With that being said, I've no issues with a "different clans, different practises" though quite a lot of players do not seem to think so and tend to treat it as a 180° retcon.
However, I think the rest of it is all a stretch. That dialogue doesn't sound like something Minaeve is parroting from the Circles, and I can't imagine she's mistaken about how she got lost. I'd accept that it was true if actual evidence of that came up, but it strikes me as a step too far barring such evidence. Especially given that Dalish of the Bull's Chargers claims that happened to her too. Ok, got a video, so nobody could say I never heard the orginal version. She sounds pretty damn resentful (more than I'm used from my language version), doesn't she? She generalises and is gushing about the templars (notice her tone?) at least twice. There seems to be some stockholm (already? unsurpisingly?) around. Dalish the "archer mage" is a pretty big liar. Might just have told Bull that to convince him she has no ties with her clan anymore, besides of course placating a guy from one of the formost magic-hating cultures of all Thedas.
And there's the thing: we have no "evidence" either way, just several rather biased records contradicting previous sources. The "insiders" we have to claim some mage limit are Mineave and potentially Dalish the "archer". Contradictions come from Merrill's original clan, the Sabrae, the Lavellan and Zathrian's clan. In the end, how the character or player takes it seems to depend purely on confirmation bias. If someone's on the "circle training is bestest, rest shite" (like Vivienne or Anders) or "heroic templars" train, they sure seem to be fond of rubbing this stuff under everyone else's nose (like Vivvy does).
Yes, they do get to say that. You mean Lavellan gets a small shot at stuttering something (2:16), only to be interrupted so Minaeve could finish her story and gush about templars again.
Nightscrawl Is there anything... specifc you want to imply?
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 23, 2020 3:08:25 GMT
Nightscrawl Is there anything... specifc you want to imply? My post was basically just enthusiastic agreement with River's post, plus I wanted to tease him about DA2. Back to the topic, I'm wary of using dialogue tone as definitive proof of anything. It can vary between VAs, VA direction, and player interpretation. I've seen numerous examples over the years of someone having a different interpretation of another person's facial expression or vocal tone than I; this is true for people in real life as well as characters in film and games. There are even times when different VAs for the PC, reading the same lines with presumably the same script notes and vocal direction, have a different delivery, even to the point where players praise femHawke or femShep as being superior to their male counterparts. Scene context and player bias also has an influence.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 23, 2020 19:24:25 GMT
Given Word Of Gaider saying that the Dalish are starting to become separate peoples in spite of their efforts to remain one, and Solas backing that up in-universe if you ask him about the Dalish, I think we have plenty of evidence that different clans do things differently. And I think that's a pretty good explanation for some Dalish clans kicking out extra mages and Zathrian's clan not doing so. First thing first, three things about "word of Gaider": 1) Source/link? 2) Gaider does not work at BW anymore
3) Some of the things he said don't make too much sense if examined, such as his claim that the Qun would not be "atheist". To me, the Qun is not deistic either. So I think it remains valid to take his comments with a grain of salt at times.
Solas is hardly an unbiased source about the Dalish, and we do not get a genuine Dalish perspective in DAI apart from what Lavellan might say.
With that being said, I've no issues with a "different clans, different practises" though quite a lot of players do not seem to think so and tend to treat it as a 180° retcon. Well, all of that's fair enough on Word of Gaider: that's part of why I wanted an in-universe source to prove the people still on the project are picturing it that way. (Although since I can't find the source, that's another reason.) As for Solas, while I don't like his worldview much, given his dreaming abilities I tend to believe he has the objective facts correct, barring actual evidence that he does not. Though he never directly says "some clans exile extra mages, and some clans don't:" all we have his word for is that the Dalish are becoming fractured. But I think the bit below works better for that.You don't think the fact that two otherwise unrelated Dalish elves tell the same story is evidence? It's not proof; they could both be lying or mistaken. But doesn't it strike you as an odd coincidence that they're both telling the same otherwise-questionable tale? And for that matter, doesn't it strike you as significant that nobody present thinks to question it either time? If nothing else, you'd expect Lavellan to call them out on what they were saying if there was no truth to the tales at all... but the closest Lavellan ever comes to questioning their stories is saying " my clan never did that." They don't even think to question Minaeve's assertion that some clans did. Why is that? Lavellan does get to say enough to demonstrate our point, though. And even if they hadn't, the dialogue tree option makes clear what they wanted to say. Nightscrawl Is there anything... specifc you want to imply? My post was basically just enthusiastic agreement with River's post, plus I wanted to tease him about DA2. About that: I ran into another delay. I have the game, but it sounds like it requires me to stay online all the time, and I just moved in with my grandmother, who doesn't have internet yet. (And even if I don't strictly need internet access to play, I remember Vertigomez wanted me to take copious notes about what I did for vicarious-living purposes, and that'll be easier if I can post as I play.)
|
|
inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 23, 2020 22:44:15 GMT
You don't think the fact that two otherwise unrelated Dalish elves tell the same story is evidence? It's not proof; they could both be lying or mistaken. But doesn't it strike you as an odd coincidence that they're both telling the same otherwise-questionable tale? I might be a bit lost here as I'm not a native speaker, but what exactly is the difference between "evidence" and "proof" for the purpose of your argument? A quick look at a dictionary shows plenty of overlap, but I'm not knowledgeable about a possible juristical (?) difference.
I'm not sure if your are trying to be diffcult or trying to push a specific point. I won't bite. Spell it out if you want. I mentioned confirmation bias up there, and I'm not free of it either. Given the way how DA handles information, virtually nobody is. I already hinted at why I don't particularly like how on-sidedly DAI handles the Dalish and also non-andrastian mages in general and I feel this makes Lavellan appear a tad bit ridiculous at times. Race-specific writing in DAI is pretty inconsistent in DAI, possibly due to it being human-only initally. See the infamous "Who's Mythal" meme. Even DAO has such issues at times, Surana mages for example or Anders knowing orlesian wardens "from the circle", even though the orlesian warden could technically have been a Dalish mage, simply due to Vallaslin choices being available.
Is our "point" also mine? Clan differences? I'm honestly not sure at this time.
My post was basically just enthusiastic agreement with River's post Ah, why? Because he attempted to dismiss my ideas of what could potentially be the case, but not other's points? I'm not sure what kind of game he plays anyways. But something appears off to me. I might miss something due to language barriers though. And the heat.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Apr 23, 2024 17:30:54 GMT
30,246
Hanako Ikezawa
22,353
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2020 23:11:19 GMT
You don't think the fact that two otherwise unrelated Dalish elves tell the same story is evidence? It's not proof; they could both be lying or mistaken. But doesn't it strike you as an odd coincidence that they're both telling the same otherwise-questionable tale? I might be a bit lost here as I'm not a native speaker, but what exactly is the difference between "evidence" and "proof" for the purpose of your argument? A quick look at a dictionary shows plenty of overlap, but I'm not knowledgeable about a possible juristical (?) difference. My guess is that evidence suggests while proof is explicit. If you’re having a murder trial, the accused having a motive to kill the person is evidence while having a video of them doing it is proof. With the former, while it is evidence it isn’t proof since there could be other possibilities, while the latter is proof since there are no other possibilities.
|
|
Sokemis
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 876 Likes: 1,827
inherit
9163
0
1,827
Sokemis
876
August 2017
sokemis
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
|
Post by Sokemis on Jun 23, 2020 23:17:22 GMT
You don't think the fact that two otherwise unrelated Dalish elves tell the same story is evidence? It's not proof; they could both be lying or mistaken. But doesn't it strike you as an odd coincidence that they're both telling the same otherwise-questionable tale? Does Dalish (the Charger, I'm assuming that's the other one you're referring to) ever actually say she was kicked out, or if so why? From what I remember she says something along the lines of "My Keeper said I should see the world a bit" and then Bull makes the comment about too many mages. Possible that she had a bit of wanderlust or wanted to learn more about life outside the clan and her Keeper suggested the equivalent of "go backpack across Europe before college". (Can't remember if Lavellan has a special line here, or if it just goes right into the "it's a bow not a staff" conversation.) Also Dalish has her vallaslin - so even if she got it particularly early and came into her magic late, she had to have been with the clan for at least a few years after her magic manifested. I don't believe she left/was kicked out as soon as it was discovered she was a mage. (Not that I necessarily think this is what Dalish leaving her clan was about, but reminded me of this interesting/fun theory/headcanon I read about "Traveling Keepers" here and here.) About Minaeve, already posted my thoughts on that, but just wanted to share this excerpt from another post by the same person the posted about the wandering keepers: I need Lavellans whose eyes flash fire when they learn what was done to Minaeve, who ask what clan and which Keeper and did they really think nobody would find out, who in their very first letter home write with a hand that shakes in anger I’m fine, Keeper, but let me tell you what Clan Saerim have been doing to their children, who tell Hawen, Lanaya, Mihris, Merrill, anyone and everyone they meet, who get the word out, who create consequences Because I love the idea of my Lavellan going all Mamma Bear for Minaeve, even though she just met her. And for that matter, doesn't it strike you as significant that nobody present thinks to question it either time? If nothing else, you'd expect Lavellan to call them out on what they were saying if there was no truth to the tales at all... Not necessarily if you consider the possibility that the "three mage rule" is a lie that the Dalish continue to let outsiders believe (which could be while Dalish the Charger never corrects Bull).
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 23, 2020 23:58:42 GMT
You don't think the fact that two otherwise unrelated Dalish elves tell the same story is evidence? It's not proof; they could both be lying or mistaken. But doesn't it strike you as an odd coincidence that they're both telling the same otherwise-questionable tale? I might be a bit lost here as I'm not a native speaker, but what exactly is the difference between "evidence" and "proof" for the purpose of your argument? A quick look at a dictionary shows plenty of overlap, but I'm not knowledgeable about a possible juristical (?) difference. Well, it's what Hanako said: evidence is a weaker term. Evidence refers to something that supports an argument, while proof refers to evidence so strong that there's just no further argument to be had. And the evidence I'm citing here is nowhere near that strong. I could, in fact, be entirely wrong here. I just don't think I am. Okay, good point. Lavellan does seem to get hit with the "this game's dialogue was originally written for a human Inquisitor" problem a lot. And maybe that would explain why Lavellan doesn't say anything when Bull says Dalish was asked to leave her clan because of the "too many mages" rule. But Lavellan does get a specific racial dialogue that replies to Minaeve's story, Lavellan doesn't have the option to claim that no clans do that; the most Lavellan gets the option to say is that their clan didn't. I think if we were supposed to believe that no clans did that, and that it was just slander that the Dalish don't try to refute because they have a use for the unflattering story, Lavellan would have either refuted it and tried to figure out what had really happened, or just accepted Minaeve's vitriol in order to sell the lie. Well, Hanako said that Lavellan gets the chance to say their clan didn't kick out extra mages. You replied that they don't get the chance to say much. I'd thought you were saying they didn't get to weigh in at all, so I'd replied that Minaeve doesn't cut them off quite quickly enough to prevent them from getting the point across. (Did I misread what you were trying to say there? If so, I apologize.) I mostly only weigh in on the forums when I see a post I have questions or comments about, or don't think is entirely accurate. And don't take it personally: I do the "randomly jumping in just to disagree with something" routine to a lot of people. (I'm doing less of it now that I have to walk up the street to access wifi, but still.) You don't think the fact that two otherwise unrelated Dalish elves tell the same story is evidence? It's not proof; they could both be lying or mistaken. But doesn't it strike you as an odd coincidence that they're both telling the same otherwise-questionable tale? Does Dalish (the Charger, I'm assuming that's the other one you're referring to) ever actually say she was kicked out, or if so why? From what I remember she says something along the lines of "My Keeper said I should see the world a bit" and then Bull makes the comment about too many mages. Possible that she had a bit of wanderlust or wanted to learn more about life outside the clan and her Keeper suggested the equivalent of "go backpack across Europe before college". (Can't remember if Lavellan has a special line here, or if it just goes right into the "it's a bow not a staff" conversation.) Also Dalish has her vallaslin - so even if she got it particularly early and came into her magic late, she had to have been with the clan for at least a few years after her magic manifested. I don't believe she left/was kicked out as soon as it was discovered she was a mage. (Not that I necessarily think this is what Dalish leaving her clan was about, but reminded me of this interesting/fun theory/headcanon I read about "Traveling Keepers" here and here.) Dalish never says exactly why she left her clan... but since she denies being a mage, you'd expect her to keep her mouth shut about the "three mages per clan" thing, whether it's a real rule or just something she's using as a cover story among the Chargers. Good point about the vallaslin, though. I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of that. Maybe she only came into her powers late in life, or the Keeper only asked her to leave the clan after he'd given all of the potential candidates for First time to prove themselves?I do actually like that headcanon. Though since the practice seems to be a bit more widespread than that, I'm not sure that clan would be pariah'd quite as hard as Charamei seems to hope. (Although I hope Lanaya does have a loud and disapproving opinion of the practice.)But if that was why Lavellan didn't correct Dalish, then why did they only half-correct Minaeve? Wouldn't you expect them to either let Minaeve in on the lie and try to help her remember what really happened, or just keep their mouth shut entirely and accept Minaeve's misplaced vitriol for the sake of the greater goal?
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 24, 2020 0:46:31 GMT
I think, Minaeve tells the truth – at least, as she remembers to the "truth". A shocked little child... Why would any Dalish clan so dumb? Nothing logical in this bullshit, in fact a simple suicidal act. The clans don't want to survive? ___ About Cullen (I should say, I like Cullen's character, but there are MANY wasted opportunity here, especially as a romanced Circle mage. This love should be one of the hardest romances – but just a sweet nothing – same with Cassandra as a mage and an elf.): Inquisitor: “Mages can take care of themselves.” Cullen: accuses the mages – by using children and parents to emphasize his “arguments”. Inquisitor: can’t say a word against that. Not a chance for arguing. *** “Knight-Commander Meredith methods were harsh, but they kept people safe” – Cullen still can’t condemn her and nor her methods… and the mage Inquisitor can’t have a word. Again. So: Cullen can find excuses to Meredith, but the Inquisitor can’t stand behind the rebellion or/and defend Anders, and even romanced Hawke can’t stand behind Anders wholeheartedly – not because Hawke wouldn’t support him, but because the game doesn’t let it. Also: My Hawke would never speak about Anders (his love) like: "he's not a moster, nor a hero, maybe he's both" – especially not to a stranger.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 24, 2020 1:02:40 GMT
same with Cassandra as a mage and an elf I can't speak to elf, but Cassandra already had her character development with mages, in the Dawn of the Seeker movie, and had a relationship with a mage, so clearly that's not a difficult concept for her.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 24, 2020 1:06:52 GMT
same with Cassandra as a mage and an elf I can't speak to elf, but Cassandra already had her character development with mages, in the Dawn of the Seeker movie, and had a relationship with a mage, so clearly that's not a difficult concept for her. Still, pro-Circle, and a Seeker. Some obvious questions should emerge. But perhaps it just me...
|
|
Sokemis
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 876 Likes: 1,827
inherit
9163
0
1,827
Sokemis
876
August 2017
sokemis
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
|
Post by Sokemis on Jun 24, 2020 2:40:11 GMT
But if that was why Lavellan didn't correct Dalish, then why did they only half-correct Minaeve? Wouldn't you expect them to either let Minaeve in on the lie and try to help her remember what really happened, or just keep their mouth shut entirely and accept Minaeve's misplaced vitriol for the sake of the greater goal? As far as the half-correction, could have been a knee-jerk type reaction in wanting to defend you people/clan without giving everything away. And it's possible Lavellan in game was going to say more. The dialogue wheel says "My clan found other ways" and she gets cut off before finishing her sentence right at the "or". We never find out what the other ways were - possibly that mages have other roles within the clan besides Keeper/First/Second - we don't know what/how much she was about to tell Minaeve in that moment. When Minaeve keeps talking, Lavellan realizes that not only has Minaeve grown up in the Circle, at this point she sees the Templars as her rescuers and the Dalish as the bad guys. I think Lavellan (my Lavellan anyway) would test the waters and see if she could be trusted before telling her that the "three mage rule" isn't a universal truth (as I said before, I accept that turning them out may happen, but think it's the exception and not the rule). My (mage) Lavellan feels the number one role of the Keeper to be that of protecting her clan (or the Dalish in general as the case may be). If in the end, accepting Minaeve's vitriol helps protect the Dalish as a whole, I think she would. That's not to say she wouldn't try to help Minaeve in any other way she could - whether that be help her remember what happened, try to help her get in contact with her family if she so wishes, or simply accept what happened. Given Word Of Gaider saying that the Dalish are starting to become separate peoples in spite of their efforts to remain one, and Solas backing that up in-universe if you ask him about the Dalish, I think we have plenty of evidence that different clans do things differently. Happened to come across that conversation with Solas tonight. His talking about Dalish clans being different was more in the context of how they interact with humans. Not saying it doesn't have any bearing on the topic at hand, but it's not specific proof as far as the fate of non-Keeper apprentice mages among the clans. And back to the original question: I can't think of an example right now that hasn't already been mentioned, but there are a few chances where I wish the Inquisitor had a chance, any chance, at a reply. There were a couple times with my Dalish mage talking with Cullen and an early conversation with Cassandra comes to mind - the one where she asks if you believe in the Maker. If you reply "I believe in the elven gods", she answers with "And there's no room among your gods for one more." No Cassandra, that's not how it works. I would have loved to been able to say something back along the lines of "And there's no room next to your Maker for the Creators."
|
|
inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 24, 2020 9:40:02 GMT
I can't speak to elf, but Cassandra already had her character development with mages, in the Dawn of the Seeker movie, and had a relationship with a mage, so clearly that's not a difficult concept for her. Still, pro-Circle, and a Seeker. Some obvious questions should emerge. But perhaps it just me... No, not just you. There's definitely a conflict coming up if both are in love with a mage, yet still insist on the circles with more or less traditional rules. As I see it, they would have three choices that way. 1) Turn around and give up or adjust their views 2) Sticking to the traditional rules and have their love locked up along with the all the others. 3) Essentially becoming some sort of hypocrite and go "everyone back to the tower, except you". While I did not play either of the romances mentioned, I was told that Cullen takes this approach in essence.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 24, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jun 24, 2020 18:06:56 GMT
Cassandra's able to work with Leliana, also, she ultimately let the College of Enchanters work in parallel with the Circles if she's the Divine... I see a supportive romance as well even with the pro-freedom mage Inquisitor – at least at the end. My problem is: it should be harder. Great potentials in it, but still just a sweet nothing.
|
|
inherit
1020
0
Nov 26, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
21,685
fylimar
5,415
Aug 16, 2016 18:31:34 GMT
August 2016
fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by fylimar on Jun 25, 2020 12:20:21 GMT
I think, what bugged me the most, was Morrigan lecturing my Lavellan about elven gods. That was so stupid.
The other thing is the whole handling of Anders quest. From the stuff, he wanted to gather, it was pretty clear for me, even in my first playthrough, that he doesn't want to make a solution to separate him and Justice. Either they should have made the ingredients less obvious or Hawke should have been able to intervene or take a more active part (depending on what kind of Hawke you are playing). But the quest as it is, is my least favorite one in DA2, because it was neither here nor there.
I wish, you'd call Isolde out on being very unpolite to the Warden who is about to save the city and her son. I really hated her(and my morally more... flexible Warden sacrificed her for it).
Generally, there is tons of stuff, I would love to say to companions and other npcs, but that would be too much to fit in one game.
|
|
House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
Prime Posts: 1,584
Posts: 4,535 Likes: 10,214
inherit
621
0
10,214
House Targaryen
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
4,535
August 2016
thehound
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
gscott7833
1,584
|
Post by House Targaryen on Jul 3, 2020 19:41:06 GMT
I think, what bugged me the most, was Morrigan lecturing my Lavellan about elven gods. That was so stupid. Indeed
Yes, human, do enlighten me about my own people's gods. I'm Dalish after all not one of those uneducated city elves
|
|
melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,916 Likes: 24,214
inherit
214
0
24,214
melbella
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
7,916
August 2016
melbella
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
melbella
2186
5778
|
Post by melbella on Jul 4, 2020 0:21:51 GMT
All of the options amount to either agreeing that Leiliana should kill him (if only tacitly) or arguing that he should be spared. Where's the option for "and try to take him alive if it is reasonably practical?" This is an option, if you tell her to use him for information. At least, that's how I interpret it.
|
|
Quickpaw
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
Posts: 452 Likes: 564
inherit
1429
0
564
Quickpaw
452
Sept 4, 2016 18:38:24 GMT
September 2016
quickpaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Tuldabar
Shadow Quickpaw
|
Post by Quickpaw on Jul 4, 2020 2:27:49 GMT
This is an option, if you tell her to use him for information. At least, that's how I interpret it. It does bug be somewhat how clueless/naive/dense the Inquisitor can come off sometimes. If I had more control over what is said there I'd still ask for Butler to be spared, but also lecture Leliana about letting her hurt pride over being tricked by one of her own cloud her judgement. If she just offs the traitor like she plans she'll never understand why it happened, what are his connections, is this a larger security threat, how many people are involved. Kill him now and the trail goes cold. Also spare Sidonis please, Garrus. You don't know the whole story, and you won't like who you turn into.
|
|