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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 19, 2020 20:19:54 GMT
I've been thinking a little too much about this recently, so maybe i have just worked myself into a corner, but i'm a little confused about something to do with this. I am sure it has been asked before but i tend to fade in and out of lurking so chances are i missed it.
Namely that if an Old Gods' soul tries to possess a living person both of their souls are 'destroyed'. We know the Grey Warden dies, still a little unclear on whether the Old Gods die or not but it does stop the Blight. This doesn't seem to be the case for Corypheus and perhaps the other First Darkspawn too. I mosty posit this because he posseses Larius who wanted to stop him. While i know their wills could have been overtaken due to Corypehus' own calling (thus avoiding the 'a soul is not forced upon the unwilling'), he still enters a living vessel but he doesn't die. I find this strange as Old Gods are supposed to be powerful, probably more powerful than the Magisters, yet something happens to them when there is a living soul that prevents them from being able to possess it. How do the Magisters bypass this?
As well as this, from Origins i always got the idea that the OGB would basically be Uthemial reincarnated but now we know that isn't the case. So for a while Kieren had two souls? Morrigan said that the baby wouldn't have a Soul when the Old God entered it, so he developed a Soul later and they coexisted? Or is he soul-less now? (This bit is a little irrelevent but dammit i have questions!)
And then there is the fact Solas said that Corypheus learned "the secrets to effective immortality", which makes me think that this ability to take over the body of another has little, maybe even nothing, to do with the Blight. Corypheus seemed to know he could do it right after he woke up rather than it being something that happened by accident because there was a blighted creature nearby. And if it was to do with the Blight i find Solas' wording to be rather strange. You can' "learn" something that happened to you by accident. This seems to be the way Mythal has endured, she's not immortal because she is dead, but she also is immortal because she has a physical body that can enact her will. So is it an elven thing? Maybe having the Blight just limits your options when it comes to possesion realestate?
I suppose it could be down to how powerful they are?
So basically I am wondering if this has been answered in any form and if not what do you think? I have looked for answers but i'm not finding anything.
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 19, 2020 20:32:23 GMT
I think it’s certainly possible that his more powerful body-switching ability might be attributable to Tevinter magic, but I think it has more to do with Corypheus being one of the original darkspawn.
While the Archdemon is doubtlessly powerful and leads the horde, it is basically just a ghoul, having been infected by another darkspawn. But Corypheus and the other corrupted magisters are Patient Zero for the Blight - they got it directly from visiting the Golden City. They were turned from humans into the first darkspawn, and thus their connection to the Blight is so much more powerful.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 19, 2020 20:48:30 GMT
I think the short answer would be that they are continually revising the lore to suit the story they want to tell, so whenever a contradiction seems to appear we are told it was just imperfect knowledge on the part of our PC or the history/explanation that someone else gave them.
The main problem I had with the Corypheus reincarnation is that it was claimed that the reason he couldn't be killed was linked to his dragon. That had me questioning whether he always had that dragon because he was able to body hop at the end of Legacy. In ancient times the Wardens didn't seem to be able to kill him simply because he had some strange control over them that prevented them striking at him, which is why the best they could come up was to imprison him. So, as you say, the influence he has over the mind of the warden would mean they willingly accepted the transfer and so the mechanism was very similar to how the Archdemons jumped to the nearest darkspawn, which we were told are soulless, so they is nothing there to resist.
The problem I had with the Kieran transfer was the distance which the Old God soul had to travel in order to jump into Morrigan's womb if you left her at the city gate rather than into the Warden who was standing right next to them. Clearly it involved something other than having sex with her and fathering a child, since the Warden could already have done this at an earlier stage. I've no idea if Kieran is soulless once the OG has departed but it was probably more a case that for a time he had a twin soul which co-existed in exactly the same way that Flemeth/Mythal or Anders/Justice do. As he was still young, the spare soul could depart without it harming him. Also with the Old God soul it would seem an automatic transfer, not something that is done deliberately or the Archdemon would stop itself from jumping to the warden and aim for the nearest darkspawn instead.
Going back to Flemeth/Mythal she was able to survive being killed by the warden through just a small piece of her being placed in an amulet. So this could be what was going on with Corypheus and his Dragon, except in that case surely his soul should have jumped to the dragon? This is why I formed the theory that the Old God Dragons were the split soul of either the Evanuris or the Forgotten Ones and the reason Solas was so horrified at the prospect of killing them is that it would free the soul to return to the Fade or the original being wherever it might be and the wardens were wrong about the soul being destroyed. Except in Corypheus' case making his soul whole again was what made him killable. Then in World of Thedas 2 it is confirmed that we didn't kill Corypheus at all but simply forced him into the Fade, where because he was now beset with doubt he would be destroyed because "nothing that knows doubt can survive in the Fade".
So your guess is as good as mine what Solas really means when he says that Corypheus had learned the secret of effective immortality as it could be any one of a number of processes.
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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 19, 2020 20:51:22 GMT
I think it’s certainly possible that his more powerful body-switching ability might be attributable to Tevinter magic, but I think it has more to do with Corypheus being one of the original darkspawn. While the Archdemon is doubtlessly powerful and leads the horde, it is basically just a ghoul, having been infected by another darkspawn. But Corypheus and the other corrupted magisters are Patient Zero for the Blight - they got it directly from visiting the Golden City. They were turned from humans into the first darkspawn, and thus their connection to the Blight is so much more powerful. Perhaps, but don't some things say that it was the Old Gods who created the Blight?
In the World of Thedas is say: "The worship of the Old Gods was at its highest prior to the first Blight, when it is written that Dumat himself rose from his prison as the first Archdemon. While the Chantry insists it was the darkspawn who created the first archdemon, some ancient law says that Dumat created the first darkspawn and led them against Thedas."
Couldn't it be that the invasion of the Golden City and the realsing of the Blight was intentional on Dumat's part and thus the Archdemons are not simply Ghouls? They are supposed to be "more intelligent than other dragons." And if this was the case, couldn't it be assumed the Old Gods were tainted before the Darkspawn?
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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 19, 2020 20:57:27 GMT
I think the short answer would be that they are continually revising the lore to suit the story they want to tell, so whenever a contradiction seems to appear we are told it was just imperfect knowledge on the part of our PC or the history/explanation that someone else gave them. If this is all it is i will be mad haha
Was it that he shared his soul with the Dragon? I thought it was that he shared his power and killing the dragon the quickly killing him while his power was lacking would be enough. But you are right, we trap him in the fade so who knows?
I have to wonder if Darkspawn don't have Souls since when free from the call they seem more or less human?
For Morrigan i remember she said that the Old God would be attracted to the baby for whatever reason, but i still agree with you.
I think it is heavily implied that the Old Gods are the Forgotten ones. That could be why? I think it's suggested throughout that the Old God may not die in the process to be honest, right?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 19, 2020 21:18:06 GMT
Couldn't it be that the invasion of the Golden City and the realsing of the Blight was intentional on Dumat's part and thus the Archdemons are not simply Ghouls? They are supposed to be "more intelligent than other dragons." And if this was the case, couldn't it be assumed the Old Gods were tainted before the Darkspawn? This is something else that falls under the category of continually evolving lore. Even the Chantry version of events varies depending if you are following Andraste's version or the Canticle of Silence by Hessarian. In the latter they are going there at the urging of Dumat and expect to find him there, not the Maker as knowledge and worship of him vanished long before the rise of the Imperium. Since all the gods fell silent once the Golden City was breached, it would suggest that possibly it was their intent to release the Blight or at least break the seal on their prison so they could escape once the darkspawn had tunnelled their way in. I've frequently questioned if the Old God is only corrupted once the darkspawn reach them because if it is their song which attracts them, surely it is the tainted song of the arch-demon? It may be that they were originally clear of the blight but were corrupted whilst still in their prison once the Darkness was released from the Black City or they could have been sealed away originally because they had the Blight. That is something we have yet to find out. The arch-demon is definitely more than a simple ghoul or dragon. It has the intelligence to direct its forces and plan attacks. I think that once we know what they were originally, it will make it easier to understand how the blight corrupts and transforms them.
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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 19, 2020 21:22:18 GMT
Couldn't it be that the invasion of the Golden City and the realsing of the Blight was intentional on Dumat's part and thus the Archdemons are not simply Ghouls? They are supposed to be "more intelligent than other dragons." And if this was the case, couldn't it be assumed the Old Gods were tainted before the Darkspawn? This is something else that falls under the category of continually evolving lore. Even the Chantry version of events varies depending if you are following Andraste's version or the Canticle of Silence by Hessarian. In the latter they are going there at the urging of Dumat and expect to find him there, not the Maker as knowledge and worship of him vanished long before the rise of the Imperium. Since all the gods fell silent once the Golden City was breached, it would suggest that possibly it was their intent to release the Blight or at least break the seal on their prison so they could escape once the darkspawn had tunnelled their way in. I've frequently questioned if the Old God is only corrupted once the darkspawn reach them because if it is their song which attracts them, surely it is the tainted song of the arch-demon? It may be that they were originally clear of the blight but were corrupted whilst still in their prison once the Darkness was released from the Black City or they could have been sealed away originally because they had the Blight. That is something we have yet to find out. The arch-demon is definitely more than a simple ghoul or dragon. It has the intelligence to direct its forces and plan attacks. I think that once we know what they were originally, it will make it easier to understand how the blight corrupts and transforms them. This is why waiting is painful. So many questions and no answers. Except that everything we know based on in game things so far is probably wrong or mostly wrong.
At the very least it seems somewhat intentional on the part of the Old Gods to call the darkspawn.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 20, 2020 18:01:27 GMT
So many questions and no answers. Have you got the Core Rulebook that was issued for people who wanted to play the game D&D table top style? It is well worth a look. There is a lot of fascinating lore in there, particularly relating to the darkspawn and the Blights because it was originally brought out around the time of Origins, so reflects much of the lore that underpinned that game. Of course they have modified and outright changed some of this since then but it may still be relevant because at the very least it gives an insight into what the writers were thinking back then. There was an interesting tit-bit that some of the Grey Wardens believed at least some of the Magisters might have hooked up with Dumat before they went to the Black City and he actually helped them get there. Now, on the face of it, this idea seems to have been disproved by what Corypheus and his servant said about the matter. At the end of DAI Corypheus appeals to Dumat "if you ever existed help me now", which does suggest he never actually encountered his god in person but only in his mind via the Fade. However, there were allegedly 7 Magisters who went to the Black City, we have encountered two of them and a dwarf claims to have met another 3 in the Deep Roads, one of who ate another. Whether the latter story is true or not that still leaves 2 unaccounted for. Who is to say that they haven't already made contact with their respective gods deep underground? I'd still put good money on Lusacan being behind the release of the Blight and probably not affected by it like the rest. Just a hunch based off the way they pointed out a link between him and Falon-Din, who had no fear of the night. Lusacan is the Old God of the night, so either a Forgotten One who Falon'Din didn't fear, was in league with or linked with him in some other way. I also feel that the night is associated with darkness which is in turn associated with the blight, so if any god should be seen as being in favour of the blight, it would be Lusacan.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 20, 2020 18:15:58 GMT
Here's another set of questions for you. Why didn't the Blight affect the Magisters in the same way it does other mortals? Most people either die or get turned into ghouls which gradually decays their mind. On the whole Corypheus was pretty lucid. He claims that they allowed the darkness to permeate their being, so deliberately turned themselves into darkspawn, yet they retained their freedom of thought. Darkspawn were drawn to Corypheus in DA2 in a similar way to the arch-demon (they rather glossed over this in DAI never explaining that is why we had a rash of darkspawn in various locations), yet he would appear not to have wanted to use his power over them. They could easily have given him his army instead of the far harder to control demons. Perhaps he didn't want them contaminating his new Imperium but then why use red lyrium? He could also presumably know where the last two Old Gods were because he should have been able to hear their song even if he could resist it. Actually, now I think about it, why didn't the magnified False Calling have darkspawn pouring onto the surface? The Grey Warden calling is only them being no longer able to resist the call of the arch-demons in the Deep Roads but if this was being overridden by the False Calling that should have affected the darkspawn too.
Why did the Architect's ritual with Grey Warden blood block the song and free the minds of his fellow darkspawn? Where were the Magisters during the First Blight? The Wardens only became aware of them after it was ended. Yet Dumat's corpse attracted Corypheus and was used to trap him. So what was going on there? The annoying part is that now Corypheus and the Architect seem to have been removed from play, I doubt we are ever going to get answer to some of these questions.
However, I live in hope that those last 2 Magisters will turn up somewhere along the way, particularly as Razikale was the patron of Minrathous and the kingdom of Tevinter before the Imperium, so her dragon is likely to be sleeping somewhere up there. Also a long shot, may be they are connected with the Executors.
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Post by smudjygirl on Jun 20, 2020 18:36:52 GMT
So many questions and no answers. Have you got the Core Rulebook that was issued for people who wanted to play the game D&D table top style? It is well worth a look. There is a lot of fascinating lore in there, particularly relating to the darkspawn and the Blights because it was originally brought out around the time of Origins, so reflects much of the lore that underpinned that game. Of course they have modified and outright changed some of this since then but it may still be relevant because at the very least it gives an insight into what the writers were thinking back then. There was an interesting tit-bit that some of the Grey Wardens believed at least some of the Magisters might have hooked up with Dumat before they went to the Black City and he actually helped them get there. Now, on the face of it, this idea seems to have been disproved by what Corypheus and his servant said about the matter. At the end of DAI Corypheus appeals to Dumat "if you ever existed help me now", which does suggest he never actually encountered his god in person but only in his mind via the Fade. However, there were allegedly 7 Magisters who went to the Black City, we have encountered two of them and a dwarf claims to have met another 3 in the Deep Roads, one of who ate another. Whether the latter story is true or not that still leaves 2 unaccounted for. Who is to say that they haven't already made contact with their respective gods deep underground? I'd still put good money on Lusacan being behind the release of the Blight and probably not affected by it like the rest. Just a hunch based off the way they pointed out a link between him and Falon-Din, who had no fear of the night. Lusacan is the Old God of the night, so either a Forgotten One who Falon'Din didn't fear, was in league with or linked with him in some other way. I also feel that the night is associated with darkness which is in turn associated with the blight, so if any god should be seen as being in favour of the blight, it would be Lusacan. I know of this, but from what i have heard there are more than a handful of lore errors/outdated Lore that makes me wonder if it would be worth buying. I'll probably end up getting it because it's Dragon age, but as of right now i've never read it. That's an interesting tidbit.
The Forgotten ones were also the Gods of disease and such negative things, so it's not hard to believe they are somehow responsible. From what i can gather from this Forum and elsewhere though, there are some people who would blow a gasket if more things are 'elven'. If the Old Gods were once allies of Solas, or even just enemies of the Gods, and they became desperate enough to dabble in things they couldn't control in order to win, i wouldn't be surprised if that's how the became blighted.
On Cory and Dumat, though, was it ever explained why he gets the extra burst on energy when he calls on Dumat during Legacy?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 20, 2020 20:25:24 GMT
was it ever explained why he gets the extra burst on energy when he calls on Dumat during Legacy? Did he? It is so long since I played it that I don't recall that. There was a shrine to Dumat in the prison complex and we were attacked if we desecrated it but I think that was explained as being spirits/demons that had identified with the people who had worshipped there. Still it was odd that he should have been imprisoned in a place where the worship of Dumat was carried out, unless the Wardens thought that would make it easier to entrap him because he kept returning there or something. Still, if it was an ancient shrine to Dumat then it is entirely possible that a faith spirit aided him. After all the spirit is attracted to strong faith and may have lingered there even after the worship of Dumat died out because that was a place where faith had once been strong. So if he still believed in his god after all that time, the spirit would have identified strongly with him and responded to his cry for aid.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 21, 2020 10:27:04 GMT
In the World of Thedas is say: "The worship of the Old Gods was at its highest prior to the first Blight, when it is written that Dumat himself rose from his prison as the first Archdemon. While the Chantry insists it was the darkspawn who created the first archdemon, some ancient law says that Dumat created the first darkspawn and led them against Thedas." Something else that has occurred to me. The statement that the worship of the Old Gods was at its highest prior to the First Blight seems contradicted by the memories of Corypheus' servant in the Fade. From what he recalls, the worship of the Old Gods was already waning before the First Blight. "He has been fearful of late, vexed by the loss of followers." "I heard him discussing ways to return the people of Tevinter to the ways of the Old Gods." "The weakening of the Temples brought fear into his heart and the fear has changed him." Now it would seem that Dumat was still communicating with him because "He listens only to the voices in his dreams," and "In order to carry out the will of Dumat, he would need to call upon the magic in our blood." So it definitely seems that the Canticle of Silence was correct in attributing the idea for assaulting the Black City to Dumat and that he told Corypheus the aim of this was to raise the status of his High Priest to that of a god so people would be left in no doubt of his power, which is confirmed by Corypheus' words to his servant and what he expected to find in the Golden City. However, it could well be that Dumat preyed on his fears and promised him "glory" knowing that what he would actually find was the Blight. In a way Dumat did not lie because Corypheus was looking for power that would set him apart from other mortals and that is precisely what he got. Dumat may also have been perfectly aware this would be the case and in a way, releasing the Blight on the world was revenge for them not giving him his due worship. When Dumat arose as the arch-demon he was initially unstoppable and had a multitude of worshipers in the darkspawn, so it would fit with a god who demanded worship in return for his favour and punished those who refused, as was said to have occurred with ancient Barindur. To my mind releasing the Blight on the world was far more in character with Old Gods who promoted blood sacrifice than the creator of the world itself. Why would the Maker want to release the Blight onto his creation simply because a bunch of corrupt magisters turned up on his doorstep? Why couldn't he prevent their corruption from infecting "heaven"? Which is why I feel that part of the Canticle of Silence is Hessarian's propaganda, which later found its way into the Chant of Light through Drakon, the grandson of a Tevinter Altus and in fact the Maker didn't have anything to do with the release of the Blight but Dumat most certainly did.
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