Highwayman667
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 0:22:37 GMT
The shit has hit the fan. Chris Avellone has been accused of sexual assault:
https://www.reddit.com/r/kotor/comments/hct3ge/moderation_note_chris_avellone_sexual_assault/
Both Techland and Paradox have also cut ties with him:
/photo/1
I apologize to the moderators in case this is already being discussed somewhere else.
Honestly though... don't know how I feel about this.
I don't want to minimize any type of sexual assault accusations. The man has written some legendary games but obviously that shouldn't give him a pass of any kind because these issues are too serious to be overlooked. Too much harm comes from sexual abuse and too many victims are often ignored by institutions that are supposed to protect them.
On the other hand, this took me completely off guard. I'd heard every once in a while that he was apparently a difficult person to work with but... nothing like this ever came to mind.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jun 23, 2020 2:19:23 GMT
Before this conversation kicks off, a reminder of a couple of things; We allow criticism of public figures (which Chris Avellone would be considered, given this is a gaming focused forum) to a point. Excessive and/or aggressive criticism will be subject to moderation. We do not, have not and will not allow users to insult or attack each other for their views on this matter. All of the forums rules apply. If you have strong feelings about this topic and wish to contribute to it, I suggest refreshing these rules in your mind before doing so. bsn.boards.net/post/1185130/threadThanks.
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linksocarina
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PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jun 23, 2020 3:03:37 GMT
The shit has hit the fan. Chris Avellone has been accused of sexual assault: https://www.reddit.com/r/kotor/comments/hct3ge/moderation_note_chris_avellone_sexual_assault/ Both Techland and Paradox have also cut ties with him: /photo/1 I apologize to the moderators in case this is already being discussed somewhere else. Honestly though... don't know how I feel about this. I don't want to minimize any type of sexual assault accusations. The man has written some legendary games but obviously that shouldn't give him a pass of any kind because these issues are too serious to be overlooked. Too much harm comes from sexual abuse and too many victims are often ignored by institutions that are supposed to protect them. On the other hand, this took me completely off guard. I'd heard every once in a while that he was apparently a difficult person to work with but... nothing like this ever came to mind. Honestly, this is not that off-guard. Avellone was always kind of an asshole, and not just with co-workers. If I recall he was also kicked out of GenCon or some gaming con a few years back due to excessive drinking. There were also allegations a few years ago too, though it kind of got buried since there was little proof, most shrugged it off then. So this is really not surprising, to me at least. Sucks too, he was a decent writer and worked on two of my favorite RPGs.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 23, 2020 3:23:54 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty.
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Post by Blast Processor on Jun 23, 2020 3:32:01 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty. Well a nice sentiment, isn't like 1.5% of sexual assault cases that lead to a charge? So basically the guy is innocent then.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 23, 2020 3:52:39 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty. Well a nice sentiment, isn't like 1.5% of sexual assault cases that lead to a charge? So basically the guy is innocent then. And only 2-10% of accusations are believed to be fake according to studies, so statistically he's most likely guilty and will get away with it unfortunately.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2020 3:55:54 GMT
There's enough untapped creative talent in the world that we thankfully don't have to give oxygen to people who behave like assholes.
Frankly, his bad behaviour prior to this should have been enough to get him pushed out of the industry, and if game development weren't so poorly regulated and abusive to begin with, it would have.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 23, 2020 8:19:25 GMT
I agree with DragonKingReborn about taking great care in this thread. My own 2c: Sexual coercion and assault (in whichever form) is a blight that needs to be dealt with. In cases where there are credible accusations, people (and organisations) need to act. Personally, I'm less inclined to automatically 'believe' any single accusation simply at face value, but once accusations start to mount then I don't need to wait until legal processes (which by the nature of things are bad at convicting on material evidence despite valid blame) in order to come to a view. To be clear, I think both to automatically believe and 'cancel' people on a single accusation and taking an 'innocent until proved guilty' approach that ignores a situation until eventual (and remote) conviction, are both flawed by virtue of lacking any nuance. Life is more messy and complicated than that. The most interesting thing for me (as far as our forum is concerned) is the debate about whether 'art' can be tainted by the artist. I see no reason to 'junk' Fallout New Vegas because it includes writing from the accused, nor would I be troubled playing it again. Similarly, I would not feel a need to expunge content from games in progress, though I can see that is happening, perhaps to mitigate awful PR.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Jun 23, 2020 10:16:23 GMT
...he is innocent until proven guilty. That's always my starting point too, as people's lives can be wrecked by false allegations (or even taking something consensual and reframing it into something far more sinister for whatever motive they may have). I want to simultaneously show support for the victim, whilst not judging the accused, as I simply don't know the truth first hand. It's only when more and more voices chime in that that starts to erode, and here it seems like he has a reputation. If this is true, if everything she says is accurate, then it's not a one off. It's a pattern. And then in that case, WTF has the gaming industry kept it quiet for so long? That would require dozens of people, maybe hundreds, over many years, knowing directly or indirectly of his behaviour and brushing it under the carpet. If true, it's a bloody disgrace. I'm almost more disgusted with them. Anyway, as SJ and DKR said, what does this mean for the games... What I will never do is judge a game worked on by many, many people, by the actions of one. It would do the rest of the team a huge disservice to cancel their game because of one guy. They might not have known, they could even have been affected by him too, so to dismiss their work and throw the whole thing away is beyond dumb. Hopefully companies can make statements, show solidarity with their team and customers on one side, without overreacting and judging someone unfairly on the other. What an impossible situation.
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Post by Reznore on Jun 23, 2020 10:35:51 GMT
Sounds like he's an alcoholic and needs rehab like yesterday.
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saandrig
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by saandrig on Jun 23, 2020 10:40:01 GMT
He is known for having problems with alcohol and being a real jerk when drunk, and even when sober, according to what some of his colleagues claimed. This info has been going around for many years and is hardly news, but it wasn't looked upon in depth until now. I guess it was a matter of time before an allegation was made.
I honestly don't care if companies distance themselves or that he worked on some games that I may play. I always thought he is vastly overrated as a writer anyway.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Jun 23, 2020 12:49:37 GMT
Paradox issued a comment saying that his contribution to Bloodlines 2 was removed from the game via the iterative process a while ago. Which makes sense as his contract was already done by the time they announced the game, so he didn't work very long on it and it was before it was even in pre-alpha.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 13:40:20 GMT
Here's a question, a legitimate one I have, for people in the United States:
Why is it that, seemingly at least, victims don't press charges in regards to these cases ? Emily Grace Buck has described that she and her friend reported the abuse claim and that Avellone was blacklisted from working at an unspecified developer. So she and her friend were both ready to denounce their abuser to their company but not to the police ?
I'm not talking, to clarify, about the emotional state in regards to their abuse. It is understandable when people feel like they can't report the people that have assaulted them because: 1) they haven't processed the situation fully or 2) they feel like they might receive repercussions from reporting their abuse. That is understandable. But there has to be a reason why Grace Buck didn't report this with her friend to the police, specially at a moment where she was capable of doing so.
Most of the time it seems like people in the US think that, instead of going to the police, they should break things in social media. I understand if the statue of limitations have passed but Grace Buck could've done a lot more at the time.
I ask because I am an educational psychologist in Peru and whenever I get cases of sexual abuse, I have to write a report in collaboration with the Tutoring Coordination to the Principal's Office, the latter then writes up another document straight to the police. We are obligated by law to file this report within 48 hours of the reported incident or we are subject to a negligence claim and held legally accountable for any delay to report an incident of this type.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 23, 2020 14:23:24 GMT
Here's a question, a legitimate one I have, for people in the United States: Why is it that, seemingly at least, victims don't press charges in regards to these cases ? Emily Grace Buck has described that she and her friend reported the abuse claim and that Avellone was blacklisted from working at an unspecified developer. So she and her friend were both ready to denounce their abuser to their company but not to the police ? I'm not talking, to clarify, about the emotional state in regards to their abuse. It is understandable when people feel like they can't report the people that have assaulted them because: 1) they haven't processed the situation fully or 2) they feel like they might receive repercussions from reporting their abuse. That is understandable. But there has to be a reason why Grace Buck didn't report this with her friend to the police, specially at a moment where she was capable of doing so. Most of the time it seems like people in the US think that, instead of going to the police, they should break things in social media. I understand if the statue of limitations have passed but Grace Buck could've done a lot more at the time. I ask because I am an educational psychologist in Peru and whenever I get reports of sexual abuse, I have to write a report in collaboration with the Tutoring Coordination to the Principal's Office, the latter then writes up another document straight to the police. We are obligated by law to file this report within 48 hours of the reported incident or we are subject to a negligence claim and held legally accountable for any delay to report an incident of this type. Sexual harassment in it self is not a criminal offense in the USA. Rape technically is, but it's so hard to get a guilty verdict for it that most consider it a lost cause from the get go. And then you have things like these too.
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Highwayman667
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 14:39:04 GMT
Sexual harassment in it self is not a criminal offense in the USA. Rape technically is, but it's so hard to get a guilty verdict for it that most consider it a lost cause from the get go. And then you have things like these too. To clarify, I was talking about sexual assault, which is what Emily Grace Buck alleges in this case. And that's deffinitely a miscarriage of justice what you just quoted, but at least those things can be fought against. If Chris Avellone's accusations were dismissed because of his "professional success and achievements in the game industry" then that would be complete bullshit and a lot of people would be all over it.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jun 23, 2020 14:50:08 GMT
No one should be cutting ties with him without solid proof of the allegations. That's the issue I have with these Twitter accusations. You can wreck someone's life without any legit proof.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Jun 23, 2020 17:31:03 GMT
Sexual harassment in it self is not a criminal offense in the USA. Rape technically is, but it's so hard to get a guilty verdict for it that most consider it a lost cause from the get go. And then you have things like these too. To clarify, I was talking about sexual assault, which is what Emily Grace Buck alleges in this case. And that's deffinitely a miscarriage of justice what you just quoted, but at least those things can be fought against. If Chris Avellone's accusations were dismissed because of his "professional success and achievements in the game industry" then that would be complete bullshit and a lot of people would be all over it. Unfortunately the miscarriage of justice seems to have been the norm for sexual assaults in the USA, especially for the rich and famous until #meToo. And sometimes it's not the judge who think like that. I remember two high school kids found guilty of gang rape a few years ago and the majority of the town they were from was pissed at the judge because those kids "had great (american) football future and now it was destroyed" (paraphrasing). Saying that, it's not just an USA thing. In Québec/Canada, a guy was found guilty of rape on 3 different women about 10 years ago. He was discharged of jail-time because the judge decided it would cause arm to his businesses. Last year #MeToo event caused more women to speak up about him raping them, one case happened after the first court case had ended too. He is again in front of the justice for rape and people are way harsher on him this time than the last time.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 23, 2020 18:07:19 GMT
Well, I am a big fan of Chris' work. I pretty much love all the stories that he was involved in. However, from what I've seen, this looks like a pretty clear case. He didn't deny any of it and just issued apologies. And some of the stuff you can look up (like that one chat history) is way out there. So I am very sorry to hear this but I do think there cannot and should not be any tolerance for this kind of behavior. Whatever consequences arise from this (and yes, I'll admit, it's tough not to go for the "choice and consequence" joke here ), looks like he only has himself to blame.
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Post by Gwydden on Jun 23, 2020 19:22:25 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty. No one should be cutting ties with him without solid proof of the allegations. That's the issue I have with these Twitter accusations. You can wreck someone's life without any legit proof. "Innocent until proven guilty" applies to the justice system, not to private citizens. If at a social event you get multiple complains about an attendee's behavior, you kick him out. If in a workplace, employees tell you that their coworker is disruptive and predatory, you fire him. If a prospective employee's previous references say that he is rude, frequently drunk, and a chronic sexual harasser, you don't hire him. I could believe that maybe one person is lying or, more likely, relating an isolated instance of miscommunication or less than stellar behavior. But with several corroborations of the initial accusation, all of the women speaking up being pernicious liars is much harder to believe than this one famous guy being a garbage human being who has never had any reason to correct his behavior because he's hardly faced any repercussions. What does "solid proof" even looks like in this case, anyway? There's plenty of witnesses, screenshots of inappropriate text messages, and even the guy's own admission. Do we need to conjure up a sex tape where he's assaulting someone as well? Somehow I suspect his defenders would find a way to deflect that as well. The call for diamond hard evidence is particularly absurd since, as far as I know, no one's calling for his imprisonment. Curtailing his ability to take advantage of his position and molest coworkers does not require a court hearing.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 23, 2020 19:32:13 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty. No one should be cutting ties with him without solid proof of the allegations. That's the issue I have with these Twitter accusations. You can wreck someone's life without any legit proof. "Innocent until proven guilty" applies to the justice system, not to private citizens. If at a social event you get multiple complains about an attendee's behavior, you kick him out. If in a workplace, employees tell you that their coworker is disruptive and predatory, you fire him. If a prospective employee's previous references say that he is rude, frequently drunk, and a chronic sexual harasser, you don't hire him. I could believe that maybe one person is lying or, more likely, relating an isolated instance of miscommunication or less than stellar behavior. But with several corroborations of the initial accusation, all of the women speaking up being pernicious liars is much harder to believe than this one famous guy being a garbage human being who has never had any reason to correct his behavior because he's hardly faced any repercussions. What does "solid proof" even looks like in this case, anyway? There's plenty of witnesses, screenshots of inappropriate text messages, and even the guy's own admission. Do we need to conjure up a sex tape where he's assaulting someone as well? Somehow I suspect his defenders would find a way to deflect that as well. The call for diamond hard evidence is particularly absurd since, as far as I know, no one's calling for his imprisonment. Curtailing his ability to take advantage of his position and molest coworkers does not require a court hearing. All I'm going to say about this is to wait and see, I'm not defending I'm just stating the fact that he deserves a chance to be heard as well.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jun 23, 2020 19:58:40 GMT
From that string of tweets I can conclude that he's most likely an alcoholic and probably an asshole. Not sure about "sexual predator" part.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 21:44:35 GMT
Well, I am a big fan of Chris' work. I pretty much love all the stories that he was involved in. However, from what I've seen, this looks like a pretty clear case. He didn't deny any of it and just issued apologies. And some of the stuff you can look up (like that one chat history) is way out there. So I am very sorry to hear this but I do think there cannot and should not be any tolerance for this kind of behavior. Whatever consequences arise from this (and yes, I'll admit, it's tough not to go for the "choice and consequence" joke here ), looks like he only has himself to blame. Isn't a chat story more along the lines of sexual harrassment ? It certainly seems like worthy of the industry to cut him off completely, that behavior is also unacceptable. But it seems to me like there's a clear difference between sexual assault and sexual harrassment.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 23, 2020 22:21:56 GMT
Well, I am a big fan of Chris' work. I pretty much love all the stories that he was involved in. However, from what I've seen, this looks like a pretty clear case. He didn't deny any of it and just issued apologies. And some of the stuff you can look up (like that one chat history) is way out there. So I am very sorry to hear this but I do think there cannot and should not be any tolerance for this kind of behavior. Whatever consequences arise from this (and yes, I'll admit, it's tough not to go for the "choice and consequence" joke here ), looks like he only has himself to blame. Isn't a chat story more along the lines of sexual harrassment ? It certainly seems like worthy of the industry to cut him off completely, that behavior is also unacceptable. But it seems to me like there's a clear difference between sexual assault and sexual harrassment. I am not sure what you want to tell me here. Sounds like you are agreeing with me in the broad strokes.
But I never mentioned anything about harassment vs. assault so not sure why you are bringing this up in the context of my post.
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 22:35:00 GMT
I am not sure what you want to tell me here. Sounds like you are agreeing with me in the broad strokes.
But I never mentioned anything about harassment vs. assault so not sure why you are bringing this up in the context of my post.
I was pointing out that this seems to me like an issue of sexual harrassment and not sexual assault. Clearly we can corroborate the former because there are several witnesses to the poor behavior of Avellone, which Emily Grace Buck rightly reported at the time. I didn't find however, anything in her tweets that suggested sexual assault, aside from one recollection that doesn't seem very clear. I guess the whole thing is moot however, if he doesn't deny anything.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 23, 2020 22:40:19 GMT
I am not sure what you want to tell me here. Sounds like you are agreeing with me in the broad strokes.
But I never mentioned anything about harassment vs. assault so not sure why you are bringing this up in the context of my post.
I was pointing out that this seems to me like an issue of sexual harrassment and not sexual assault. Clearly we can corroborate the former because there are several witnesses to the poor behavior of Avellone, which Emily Grace Buck rightly reported at the time. I didn't find however, anything in her tweets that suggested sexual assault, aside from one recollection that doesn't seem very clear. I guess the whole thing is moot however, if he doesn't deny anything. Well, who cares? The stuff I've seen, provided it is true (and as you said, he doesn't deny anything, just apologizes), is more than enough to fire him from whatever job he's got. That behavior cannot fly in a work environment. And that's what happened, he got fired (or "collaborations were ended" as it goes). So my point stands, the consequences are his own fault.
Assault doesn't even factor into it at all.
If there was assault as well, there should be a criminal investigation into that I'd think but I am not familiar enough with everything to really judge that (nor is it my responsibility or place). That would be for the police to figure out if charges are brought forward.
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