Highwayman667
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 23:17:26 GMT
Well, who cares? The stuff I've seen, provided it is true (and as you said, he doesn't deny anything, just apologizes), is more than enough to fire him from whatever job he's got. That behavior cannot fly in a work environment. And that's what happened, he got fired (or "collaborations were ended" as it goes). So my point stands, the consequences are his own fault.
Assault doesn't even factor into it at all.
If there was assault as well, there should be a criminal investigation into that I'd think but I am not familiar enough with everything to really judge that (nor is it my responsibility or place). That would be for the police to figure out if charges are brought forward.
I wasn't contesting your point. I was making the distinction that the accusations seemed to be regarding sexual assault... but there just doesn't seem to be any substance to the latter besides Avellone's apology. That's something I care about at least because I find that there's a difference between harrassment and assault: one is regarding intolerable workplace behavior and the other is criminal behavior.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 5:37:39 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty. Well a nice sentiment, isn't like 1.5% of sexual assault cases that lead to a charge? So basically the guy is innocent then. Yeah I never understand why people cite this principle in contexts like this. Innocence til proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is a legal principle which obtains in criminal proceedings, and is motivated by circumstances which are peculiar to that context: namely, the presumption of guilt created by formal charges, and the power disparity between an individual defendant vs. all the vast resources of the state (state and federal law enforcement, district attorneys offices, etc). There's really no good reason why we should be obliged to abide by these principles outside of the domain in which they figure or in the absence of the factors which necessitate them. You certainly don't presume innocence until proof of guilt beyond any reasonable doubt is established before disciplining your children from hitting or stealing from another child. Its simply an unnecessarily stringent standard- one that is justified when the stakes are as high as they are in criminal trials, but not in more mundane contexts. In ordinary situations, where we are not juries tasked with determining the fate of ones life and liberty, a neutral burden of proof (as opposed to the burden lying on one side in a criminal trial) and a less stringent standard of evidence than proof beyond any reasonable doubt (maybe something closer to "a preponderance of evidence", or a "reasonable or acceptable degree of probability, or something to this effect) is appropriate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 5:41:17 GMT
(^ and so we can strongly endorse the idea that any jury convened to determine Mr. Avellone's criminal culpability in this matter abides by the proper legal principles, while not adopting those legal principles ourselves when deciding for ourselves whether the person is likely to have committed the crimes of which they are accused or not- since nothing hinges on our personal judgment on this matter, the highly rigorous standard of proof beyond any reasonable doubt that obtains in criminal trials simply has no justification or warrant over and above something more like the standard of "preponderance of evidence", or even "more likely than not")
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Post by river82 on Jun 24, 2020 5:50:41 GMT
These allegations are incredibly disturbing and makes me, as a fan of Avellone's work, very sad.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 24, 2020 11:09:00 GMT
Whilst there may be differing views of the individual, what does mean for his games? If it means anything at all?
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Post by saandrig on Jun 24, 2020 11:16:00 GMT
Whilst there may be differing views of the individual, what does mean for his games? If it means anything at all? Might explain why he dislikes/can't write romances in his games
...Too soon?
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 24, 2020 15:01:00 GMT
I am often baffled by what people think evidence should BE in cases like this. Even the friend of mine who did everything a rape victim is 'supposed' to do and went straight to the police didn't actually see her rapist convicted. She did get him to trial, but despite all her bruises, the fact that she'd been drugged and the DNA evidence, the jury apparently accepted his story that she'd taken the drugs voluntarily and had consensual rough sex with him. In the end she was probably worse off than the people I know who never bothered reporting to anyone. (Which is not to say women shouldn't report - I think they absolutely should, if they feel like then can deal with the whole horrible process - but reporting in the expectation that your rapist will actually get convicted of anything is naive at best. Which is probably why people end up going to Twitter instead.)
Also: when worrying about ruining careers with false allegations, it's worth remembering that what usually happens when a woman accuses a powerful man of harassing and/or assaulting and/or raping her is ... nothing much of anything. Avellone certainly seems to have lost work over this, but I wonder if that's as much about him being a difficult drunk as about the sexual assault and harassment. I could name dozens of high-profile men in many fields who are far from starving in a gutter despite plenty of evidence that they're abusive scum. (Relevant case in point: Mel Gibson, who is still getting work in Hollywood despite his entire deal.)
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Post by river82 on Jun 24, 2020 22:17:17 GMT
Avellone certainly seems to have lost work over this, but I wonder if that's as much about him being a difficult drunk as about the sexual assault and harassment. He also hasn't done anything really stellar since Torment. He has way more hype around him than his work actually deserves, which I guess makes him easier to cut.
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Post by bshep on Jun 24, 2020 22:49:58 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty. No one should be cutting ties with him without solid proof of the allegations. That's the issue I have with these Twitter accusations. You can wreck someone's life without any legit proof. "Innocent until proven guilty" applies to the justice system, not to private citizens. If at a social event you get multiple complains about an attendee's behavior, you kick him out. If in a workplace, employees tell you that their coworker is disruptive and predatory, you fire him. If a prospective employee's previous references say that he is rude, frequently drunk, and a chronic sexual harasser, you don't hire him. I could believe that maybe one person is lying or, more likely, relating an isolated instance of miscommunication or less than stellar behavior. But with several corroborations of the initial accusation, all of the women speaking up being pernicious liars is much harder to believe than this one famous guy being a garbage human being who has never had any reason to correct his behavior because he's hardly faced any repercussions. What does "solid proof" even looks like in this case, anyway? There's plenty of witnesses, screenshots of inappropriate text messages, and even the guy's own admission. Do we need to conjure up a sex tape where he's assaulting someone as well? Somehow I suspect his defenders would find a way to deflect that as well. The call for diamond hard evidence is particularly absurd since, as far as I know, no one's calling for his imprisonment. Curtailing his ability to take advantage of his position and molest coworkers does not require a court hearing. He is a trash human being and should not be working in gaming development.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 0:37:40 GMT
In all honesty, the only thing that surprised me about this, was that the accusations didn't come sooner. I hope the people Avellone wronged find peace of mind.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jun 25, 2020 6:31:03 GMT
Whilst there may be differing views of the individual, what does mean for his games? If it means anything at all? I believe even if a person is an alcoholic asshole and such, it doesn't detract from his work. If you're known for being a good writer, artist, engineer, etc etc, that doesn't change just because you're an asshole and scumbag of a human being. You can hate the Individual all you want, but his work doesn't become worse because of their behavior and such. One can choose to no longer associate themselves with that person's work, but that person's work doesn't just lose it's quality over their behavior. Edit: so if someone likes a game that the dude was involved in pretty heavily, it doesn't just become worse after this. You can disapprove of the individual, but the game itself doesn't just drop in quality and such after 🤷
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 26, 2020 7:26:58 GMT
As accusations appear to be popping up across gaming (now including Twitch and Ubisoft), I've taken the liberty of broadening the title to include them. Also as the discussion has been sensitive and careful, so thanks for that. Are we reaching a 'MeToo' moment in gaming?
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Post by saandrig on Jun 26, 2020 7:59:11 GMT
Are we reaching a 'MeTo' moment in gaming? Like the movie industry, the gaming one has very little regulations and practically no unions. This makes all sorts of predatory practices that much easier to flourish. So I guess it was a matter of time.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 26, 2020 18:50:25 GMT
Whilst there may be differing views of the individual, what does mean for his games? If it means anything at all? I believe even if a person is an alcoholic asshole and such, it doesn't detract from his work. If you're known for being a good writer, artist, engineer, etc etc, that doesn't change just because you're an asshole and scumbag of a human being. You can hate the Individual all you want, but his work doesn't become worse because of their behavior and such. One can choose to no longer associate themselves with that person's work, but that person's work doesn't just lose it's quality over their behavior. Edit: so if someone likes a game that the dude was involved in pretty heavily, it doesn't just become worse after this. You can disapprove of the individual, but the game itself doesn't just drop in quality and such after 🤷 Besides, why does one guy get all the credit? There were tons of other people who worked on the game, should their names be tarnished because of one guy with an attitude problem? (along with the allegations of course.)
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bshep
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Post by bshep on Jul 1, 2020 6:27:04 GMT
As accusations appear to be popping up across gaming (now including Twitch and Ubisoft), I've taken the liberty of broadening the title to include them. Also as the discussion has been sensitive and careful, so thanks for that. Are we reaching a 'MeToo' moment in gaming? Not just gaming, the whole entertainment industry. Also saw accusations (with pretty hard evidence) against comic book writters and actors from series (Expanse comes to mind now).
Those people need a purge from their positions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 21:01:42 GMT
As much as Avelone maybe insufferable at times when it comes to politics, he is innocent until proven guilty. No one should be cutting ties with him without solid proof of the allegations. That's the issue I have with these Twitter accusations. You can wreck someone's life without any legit proof. "Innocent until proven guilty" applies to the justice system, not to private citizens. If at a social event you get multiple complains about an attendee's behavior, you kick him out. If in a workplace, employees tell you that their coworker is disruptive and predatory, you fire him. If a prospective employee's previous references say that he is rude, frequently drunk, and a chronic sexual harasser, you don't hire him. I could believe that maybe one person is lying or, more likely, relating an isolated instance of miscommunication or less than stellar behavior. But with several corroborations of the initial accusation, all of the women speaking up being pernicious liars is much harder to believe than this one famous guy being a garbage human being who has never had any reason to correct his behavior because he's hardly faced any repercussions. What does "solid proof" even looks like in this case, anyway? There's plenty of witnesses, screenshots of inappropriate text messages, and even the guy's own admission. Do we need to conjure up a sex tape where he's assaulting someone as well? Somehow I suspect his defenders would find a way to deflect that as well. The call for diamond hard evidence is particularly absurd since, as far as I know, no one's calling for his imprisonment. Curtailing his ability to take advantage of his position and molest coworkers does not require a court hearing. not to mention that studies consistently find the frequency of false rape allegations to be quite low, typically in the range of 2-10% of all allegations. So the prior for false allegations is incredibly low to begin with, and of course most of the rhetoric about women "changing their mind the next morning" or using allegations of this nature as a weapon or revenge for something is mostly mythology (and highly pernicious sexist mythology at that). Accused sexual abusers have nothing to complain about with the way these situations are handled in our society, as it is (unfortunately) disproportionately to their great benefit, at the expense of the victims/accusers. We've yet to strike the proper balance, but giving abusers even more protections or disproportionate power certainly isn't it.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 4, 2020 8:32:40 GMT
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Post by skekSil on Jul 4, 2020 13:42:58 GMT
not to mention that studies consistently find the frequency of false rape allegations to be quite low, typically in the range of 2-10% of all allegations. Can you provide a link to the study? I dont understand how they determine which allegations are true and which are false.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 4, 2020 17:38:10 GMT
Can you provide a link to the study? I dont understand how they determine which allegations are true and which are false. I've seen similar statistics over the years taken from tracking case outcomes. Some stats collated by the UK's Open University put false allegations at between 2-6%. www.open.ac.uk/research/news/false-accusations-sexual-violenceThe number of false allegations, though a significant minority isn't so low that it would make me comfortable to castigate someone instantly based on a single allegation. However, once multiple allegations mount up it becomes wrong not to act despite the lumbering legal process not having reached a conclusion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 22:56:43 GMT
not to mention that studies consistently find the frequency of false rape allegations to be quite low, typically in the range of 2-10% of all allegations. Can you provide a link to the study? I dont understand how they determine which allegations are true and which are false. Studies, plural- there have been many on this topic, and they are remarkably consistent with this range (which makes it all the more likely to be true). I don't know if you have log-in credentials at any of the archives for these, but here are the academic citations for several of them and the estimated prevalence each study found- DiCanio 1993, "The encyclopedia of violence: origins, attitudes, consequences" (prevalence of false allegations estimated at 2-10%) Lisak 2010, "False Allegations of Sexual Assault: An Analysis of Ten Years of Reported Cases" (est prevalence of false allegations: 5.9%) Ferguson and Malouf 2016, "Assessing Police Classifications of Sexual Assault Reports: A Meta-Analysis of False Reporting Rates" (est. prevalence of false allegations: 5.2%) Spohn, White and Tellis, 2014 "Unfounding Sexual Assault: Examining the Decision to Unfound and Identifying False Reports" (est. prevalence of false allegations: 4.5%) Obviously the data is imperfect since there are rapes that are not reported and false rape allegations not proven to have been false, but again the consistency of the range here is compelling. Turvey 2013 discusses the issues with nailing down a precise figure... though for most people's purposes, a rough range is informative enough. The idea that women routinely make false rape allegations is not empirically supported, so far as the evidence goes rape allegations are almost never made spuriously and ought to be treated with as much credibility and seriousness as accusations of murder, assault, or anything else.
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Post by skekSil on Jul 5, 2020 1:53:39 GMT
Studies, plural- there have been many on this topic, and they are remarkably consistent with this range (which makes it all the more likely to be true). I don't know if you have log-in credentials at any of the archives for these, but here are the academic citations for several of them and the estimated prevalence each study found- Unfortunately I dont. I did look at one study from the link @sofajokey provided: www.researchgate.net/publication/238713283_Home_Office_Research_Study_293_A_gap_or_a_chasm_Attrition_in_reported_rape_casesIt discusses attrition rates for rape cases in UK and touches on false reports among other reasons. Obviously the data is imperfect since there are rapes that are not reported and false rape allegations not proven to have been false, but again the consistency of the range here is compelling. Turvey 2013 discusses the issues with nailing down a precise figure... though for most people's purposes, a rough range is informative enough. The idea that women routinely make false rape allegations is not empirically supported, so far as the evidence goes rape allegations are almost never made spuriously and ought to be treated with as much credibility and seriousness as accusations of murder, assault, or anything else. There is no way to be sure that metodology of these studies are in any way similar to the one that I metioned, but if they are I'd like to point out several problems citing those numbers: 1) these studies are dealing with allegations made to police not posted in social media which is what is discussed here. That means different social repercussions/pressures (online harrasment vs prospect of going through lengthy trial), different pool of people (no people with mental health problems for example), different circumstanses of report (majority of cases happened a long time ago for online allegations). This IMHO can skew numbers in any direction. 2) false allegations in the study I read where cases that were reported in specific forms and to be false allegations investigators usually had to have good evidence to believe complaintant was lying or that complaintant admitted she was lying. It didnt account for cases that were, for example, closed because 'no sufficient evidence found' (where investigator claimed it was her vs him and decided it wasnt worth continuing investigation) or cases were complaintant withdraw her allegations (because she was convinsed that she wont be able to win the trial) and of course didnt deal with over 50% aquittal rate in trial. All these instances might contain additional examples of hidden false allegations. P.S. sorry if this text was hard to read - I should be sleeping now
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 2:12:27 GMT
Studies, plural- there have been many on this topic, and they are remarkably consistent with this range (which makes it all the more likely to be true). I don't know if you have log-in credentials at any of the archives for these, but here are the academic citations for several of them and the estimated prevalence each study found- Unfortunately I dont. I did look at one study from the link @sofajokey provided: www.researchgate.net/publication/238713283_Home_Office_Research_Study_293_A_gap_or_a_chasm_Attrition_in_reported_rape_casesIt discusses attrition rates for rape cases in UK and touches on false reports among other reasons. Obviously the data is imperfect since there are rapes that are not reported and false rape allegations not proven to have been false, but again the consistency of the range here is compelling. Turvey 2013 discusses the issues with nailing down a precise figure... though for most people's purposes, a rough range is informative enough. The idea that women routinely make false rape allegations is not empirically supported, so far as the evidence goes rape allegations are almost never made spuriously and ought to be treated with as much credibility and seriousness as accusations of murder, assault, or anything else. There is no way to be sure that metodology of these studies are in any way similar to the one that I metioned, but if they are I'd like to point out several problems citing those numbers: 1) these studies are dealing with allegations made to police not posted in social media which is what is discussed here. That means different social repercussions/pressures (online harrasment vs prospect of going through lengthy trial), different pull of people (no people with mental health problems for example), different circumstanses of report (majority of cases happened a long time ago for online allegations). This IMHO can skew numbers in any direction. 2) false allegations in the study I read where cases that were reported in specific forms and to be false allegations investigators usually had to have good evidence to believe complaintant was lying or that complaintant admitted she was lying. It didnt account for cases that were, for example, closed because 'no sufficien evidence found' (where investigator claimed it was her vs him and decided it wasnt worth continuing investigation) or cases were complaintant withdraw her allegations (because she was convinsed that she wont be able to win the trial) and of course didnt deal with over 50% aquittal rate in trial. All these instances might contain additional examples of hidden false allegations. P.S. sorry if this text was hard to read - I should be sleeping now Sure, like I said, this is an imperfect science: the data is far from exhaustive or definitive. But that cuts both ways: just as studies may fail to uncover all false allegations, they may also fail to verify all true allegations, and they almost certainly undercount allegations overall (for a variety of reasons, not least of which being the heavy stigma that still exists in this area). But the rates are consistently so low that even supposing, if only for the sake of argument, that the studies systematically undercount false allegations to a far greater extent than true allegations, the size of the error required to substantiate the notion that false allegations of rape are a major concern would be... quite staggering. And we have no indication that is the case. As always, the best we can do is rely on the best evidence available at the time (while keeping our mind open to revising our conclusions as needed by new evidence), and the evidence very clearly points to false allegations of rape being far more rare than is frequently suggested.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 2:13:33 GMT
^ its also not insignificant that studies with very different methodologies nevertheless keep finding results within that same range, as this obviously suggests (suggests, but not necessarily proves) that the methodology is not a significant factor here and that the figures arrived at are at least in the ballpark of what is actually occurring.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 2:17:04 GMT
Also worth emphasizing again that I'm talking about these rates in the context of our priors: I'm not suggesting that we determine guilt in any given case based on the low incidence of false rape allegations overall. Even taking the smallest figure- 2% of rape allegations being false- still means that there are hundreds and thousands of false rape allegations. So we're merely talking about the prior probability before considering the evidence of a specific case, and of course the specific burden of proof associated with specific legal domains will also be relevant (i.e. in the case of criminal charges or civil liability).
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Post by skekSil on Jul 5, 2020 10:55:33 GMT
I'll be refering to the study that I've mentioned as the Attrition Study from now on. But that cuts both ways: just as studies may fail to uncover all false allegations, they may also fail to verify all true allegations, and they almost certainly undercount allegations overall (for a variety of reasons, not least of which being the heavy stigma that still exists in this area). By definition all allegations reported to police are allegations overall, you can't undercount them But the rates are consistently so low that even supposing, if only for the sake of argument, that the studies systematically undercount false allegations to a far greater extent than true allegations, the size of the error required to substantiate the notion that false allegations of rape are a major concern would be... quite staggering. In the Attrition Study the false allegations are only those where complaintant was 'caught' lying. No attempt was made to estimate how many other false allegations remain undetected. So i wouldnt discount the possibility of large errors. ^ its also not insignificant that studies with very different methodologies nevertheless keep finding results within that same range, as this obviously suggests (suggests, but not necessarily proves) that the methodology is not a significant factor here and that the figures arrived at are at least in the ballpark of what is actually occurring. I strongly disagree. In my previous post I specifically mentioned that I assume thse studies have similar methodologies, because different methodologies can give radically different results. In fact even in the Attrition Study the initial number of false allegations was 12% but once they changed review standarts for them that number dropped to 3%.
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