What's your view on the Elf design in DA4

I'm easy-osy with elven bodies as long as they don't go the child-like route of DA2. I couldn't romance Merril because she looked almost pre-pubescent.

I'd be perfectly happy if they stayed away from extremes and simply made them slightly taller people with a slightly lighter bone structure, pointy ears and maybe a more unique eye shape to make them stand out a little. Heck, maybe add a slight skin tone change.

Uh... anyway, putting aside the fact that fantasy isn't a monolith, and people have been "subverting" and playing with the tropes of fantasy since the dawn of storytelling... there's only so far you can "subvert" elves or dwarves before they become completely unrecognisable.

Also, good luck figuring out how to "subvert" them in a way that hasn't already been done before. Also, "subversion"... isn't that difficult or impressive? "What if elves were actually second-class citizens?" doesn't exactly blow my mind as a concept. I would have been far more impressed if BioWare had instead come up with entirely new races, instead of using elves or dwarves at all. Especially since they haven't done anything really interesting with them. It seems obvious to me that most of BioWare's imagination has actually gone into developing the different human cultures of Thedas. The elves and dwarves of Dragon Age don't fulfil any sort of world-building function that could not have been done by "humans" instead.

I wonder what your opinion is on the in-universe logic for the elves' current apperance.  I mean besides 'we need elves in our fantasy game bcuz Tolkien said so'.  The ancient elves at the Temple of Mythal are different from their moden day counterparts: taller, less scrawny.  And then there are those champions we see there and in Trespasser, although in spirit form.  They are huge.

I suppose my question is, where did the original spirits take their inspiration when came the time to shape their physical form?  Presumably they were the first sentient beings in that world when they emerged from the Fade.

There was still a distinction between the two states of existence, though. Instead of referring to the Thedas side as the Waking World and the Fade as the Land of Dreams, they called the Thedas side the Unchanging World as opposed to the Fade which was constantly shifting.

"The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."

It is clear that it was easier to do magic in the Fade, where you could do just about anything that you wanted, but chances were that no sooner had you created some wonder then it would start to alter (fade). This is why I think some of the spirits decided to cross over into the Unchanging World so their creations would be permanent. This was easy enough to do as there was no Veil but it seems they had to take on a permanent form themselves in order to do permanent magic. However, it was still necessary to draw on the Fade for the power and knowledge to carry out what they envisaged in their minds.

"Epiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air."

Spirits who never left the Fade were more knowledgeable and powerful within it as they had never made contact with the Earth/Unchanging World but it would seem that those spirits didn't have the ambition of those that did. It would also seem that you had to shed your earthly form in order to return to the Fade.

"For abandoning the People in their time of greatest need, for casting aside form to flee to where the Earth could not reach."

So there was a definite demarcation between the two states of existence but no actual barrier between the two. I think shapeshifting came about as a skill because some of those earth bound beings wanted to have different appearances, just as they could in the Fade, but (as discussed above) I think simply changing a few features was not possible, it had to be the entire form into something else. Either that or the Evanuris put a prohibition on changing appearance from one elf shape to another.



That is a good question, for which we await an answer from the Devs. However, it is entirely possible that there were primitive humans around, which they used as a sort of template. If the elves realised they were more intelligent than the majority of creatures, that could be why they chose to imitate them but improve on it. Of course it is possible that the elf shape was a later form and the original "First" were dragons but found the form too restricting when it came to doing more delicate works of magic.

Incidentally, this is how an elf should look like. Meet Maeron, First of Clan Lavellan.

If we're sharing elf images.

 

The second one is someone's idea of Glorfindel, a Tolkien high elf: to my mind the equivalent of an ancient elf in Thedas before the Veil.   Tolkien's high elves were tall, lithe, beautiful but also strong and badass fighters.  

Modern Thedosian elves are diminished versions of their ancient ancestors.   I would expect the Dalish elves to be more robust on the whole because of their healthier lifestyle.  Also, someone mentions in Tevinter Nights how city elves always have a sort of hunched over look through trying to avoid attracting attention or be accused of defiance that would result in a beating.   Whilst all the ancient elves we have encountered are bald, PW suggested that was simply a design choice at the time and that Solas could have long flowing hair should he wish to but chose not to. 

Aren't they all wearing hoods? How do you know they're bald?

Basically I'm fine with DA:I style faces and a bit bulkier body.

Check out how the Elves look in Baldur's Gate 3.

Drow


High Elf

Pretty good aren't they. 

Exactly this. The other two DA games have terrible character models. It's been a while, but I can't recall what their physical descriptions were in the games, if they had any. Are they Tolkienesque, tall and elegant? More or less human? They were stunted looking in DA:O and scrawny looking in DA2. 

This is not an unreasonable criticism bearing in mind the game is based off D&D 5th edition and Forgotten Realms setting, where elves are meant to be visually different to humans in terms of their physique, being generally more slender in appearance in relation to their height, as well beautiful/handsome, but this might well vary according to their sub-race and class. What is true is that they never have facial or body hair and both of these examples are consistent with this.

However, this is a generalisation and since humans can vary greatly in appearance, it is not unreasonable to find that some humans look similar to elves in their physical form. Basically what I am saying is that, bearing in mind the plot of BG3, it may be that the similarity in appearance between these various characters is that someone was selecting them for a certain type. May be they wanted humans that were not big and bulky and closer to the elven ideal. In other words the humans in these screen shots look more like elves, not the other way around.

If you go back to Tolkien, where the now traditional idea of fantasy elves comes from, elves were not so different from humans in their physical appearance, other than their beauty, but they were meant to be stronger in limb and spirit. Unlike in Thedas, where half-elves show no physical evidence of their elven heritage, in Middle Earth they are physically so similar to both races that the half-elf can choose which race they wish to be part of. Elrond chose the life of an elf, whilst his brother, Elros, chose that of a human, founding the branch of humans known as the Edain, from which the Numenoreans and the line of Elendil descended. Where these humans showed evidence of their elven heritage was in their longevity, with life-spans that far exceeded that of the majority of their race.

So really Tolkien traditional elves are simply extraordinarily beautiful, strong and long-lived but an essentially human looking race.