theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Jul 10, 2020 16:49:41 GMT
Before we Tolkien nerds go into a lore showdown, what kind of background will our Elves have in the next game? Will we get a choice like in Origins or a more lore friendly common background like in Inquisition. I just hope that if we do get other races it will be handled better then Inquisition. E.G. Dalish elf not knowing who Mythal is.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jul 10, 2020 17:01:03 GMT
If you go back to Tolkien, where the now traditional idea of fantasy elves comes from, elves were not so different from humans in their physical appearance, other than their beauty, but they were meant to be stronger in limb and spirit. Unlike in Thedas, where half-elves show no physical evidence of their elven heritage, in Middle Earth they are physically so similar to both races that the half-elf can choose which race they wish to be part of. Elrond chose the life of an elf, whilst his brother, Elros, chose that of a human, founding the branch of humans known as the Edain, from which the Numenoreans and the line of Elendil descended. Where these humans showed evidence of their elven heritage was in their longevity, with life-spans that far exceeded that of the majority of their race. So really Tolkien traditional elves are simply extraordinarily beautiful, strong and long-lived but an essentially human looking race. A small nit-picky correction, but normal half-elves didn't actually have any choice in the matter of race; Elrond and his brother Elros were a special case (more about that under spoilers). During the second and third ages in Middle Earth, any child born to an elven and a human parent was human - though possibly one with the moniker 'half-elf' - due to Manwë's degree of "now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom (read: fate) be granted to them", made during the final years of the first age. source For example Boromir's maternal family, princes of Dol Amroth, descended from an union of a human man and an elven woman. (More Tolkien nerdism under spoiler tags) Like you said, outwardly there could be little to differentiate between a human and an elf (a case point: Túrin, the second cousin of Elrond's (human) grandfather Tuor, was so handsome and martially gifted the elves had difficulty of saying 'no' to his stupider antics), since for Tolkien the thing separating humans from elves was spiritual: The elves were born bound to the fate of Arda, the land created by the supreme god of Tolkien's universe, and they would remain there even after dying for as long as Arda remained. Humans were not restricted by this rule; their fates were their own. This was thought as an upgrade by both the Ainur (the divine beings of Tolkien's world, Gandalf was one of them) and the elves - but not so much by humans themselves (this is discussed in the short story 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth'). So it would figure that any resulting children would receive this upgrade.
Elrond and his brother Elros were an exception born from the actions (a case of loophole abuse since there was no precedent for "if a half-elf were to die what shall we Ainur do with them, where do we put them?") of their half-elven father Eärendil: that Elrond and Elros got to choose their fates was because their father played a key part in the eons long fight against the big bad of Tolkien's world. As a thanks both Eärendil, his wife, and their sons were granted the gift to choose to which race they would be joined. Flippantly put: The parents and Elrond chose to uninstall the human upgrade and be elves - though Elrond did also receive free upgrade giveaways ("are you sure they don't someday wish to be human?") to give for his future children. Elros got a gift certificate (longer than normal lifespan, his own island to rule etc.) for sticking with humans. Personally I liked the nose-bridge aspect of DA2 elves, and in DAI was fine with the modern elves' slender physique separating them from the ancient ones. I chalked Sera's larger build up to her having ancient elven blood somewhere in her family tree. Or alternatively, if elves were used as an ingredient for making qunari, I figure they would have chosen the largest individuals among their population and some of those bloodlines could have survived to modern ages. "But how they can hew such large weapons with those arms?" Potent magic coursing through their veins, quite simply, is my explanation. I just hope Bio fixes the bosomy-looking pectorals and broken arms of male elves so we don't see them in the next game. One small correction: The princes of Dol Amroth having elven blood was, I believe, only a legend and never confirmed. The only confirmed unions between Human and Elf were Beren and Luthien Tinuviel, Tuor and Idril Celebrinal, and Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 10, 2020 17:02:38 GMT
Before we Tolkien nerds go into a lore showdown, what kind of background will our Elves have in the next game? Will we get a choice like in Origins or a more lore friendly common background like in Inquisition. I just hope that if we do get other races it will be handled better then Inquisition. E.G. Dalish elf not knowing who Mythal is. If the next game is in fact set in Tevinter, my guess is city elf only. I got the impression there aren't a lot of Dalish in the Imperium.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 10, 2020 17:35:06 GMT
Before we Tolkien nerds go into a lore showdown No need for a showdown on my part. I was going off my memory of things as I seem to have loaned my Silmarillion to my daughter, so couldn't check my facts. The general point is true though, that elves weren't so very different from humans in appearance, as others have confirmed. what kind of background will our Elves have in the next game? Well assuming that they even give us a choice of races, then the most appropriate background for our PC would be city elf, either slave or liberati,, probably the latter so you wouldn't have the complication of being a slave on the run but I suppose that could make things interesting. It depends on how much variation they wish to make in the backgrounds for the races. Being a slave or liberati would fit just about anyone, even dwarves since I'm sure casteless can become slaves. Mind you I thought before DAI came out a city elf would be most appropriate there and still think that a city elf servant would have more business being at the Conclave than a Dalish elf from the Freemarches. I mean it wasn't as though the Divine had asked the Dalish to send a representative. Which is why I always maintain that the security at the venue was pants because we should never have got anywhere near the Temple of Sacred Ashes. After all it is not as though a Dalish elf can blend in with their vallaslin. Similarly the Dalish shouldn't be anywhere near Tevinter. Yes I know Tevinter Nights contradicts this However, I suppose they could have your Dalish elf being sent by their clan to look into the rumours of the Dread Wolf's return, which would then leave you free to role play whether you would support or oppose him. Still, as I outline above, that might make your background too much at variance with that of the other races. I'd really like an ancient elf for a companion but one who opposes Fen'Harel because they were once his ally, so they don't support the Evanuris either, but feel he betrayed them. A bit like the one whose dying words were recorded in the Vir Dirthara, except our companion did make it out alive by the skin of their teeth. They are now committed to the Vir Banal'ras, so are dedicated to hunting him down and deadly with it. Being an ancient elf they would be familiar with the elven language, which would come in handy and might also know how to protect from his petrification spell, which would be even better. They would also be able to answer questions about elven lore or just straight up refuse to rather than simply being evasive. A big difference between them and Abelas, though, is that they respect modern elves and do see them as their people, but in a paternalistic and slightly patronising way.
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theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Jul 10, 2020 18:30:31 GMT
City Elf seems the most sensible I think, we get more options on our opinions and stances. Do we support Solas/The Dread Wolf? What is our opinion regarding the Dalsih/Qunari/Inquisition? What is our position in Tevinter society (if we are a native and depending on our class presumably)? Not to mention we can be more discreet and subtle if we go without the Vallislin.
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Post by sandwichtern on Jul 11, 2020 12:24:58 GMT
One small correction: The princes of Dol Amroth having elven blood was, I believe, only a legend and never confirmed. The only confirmed unions between Human and Elf were Beren and Luthien Tinuviel, Tuor and Idril Celebrinal, and Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel. Fair enough, I should have been clearer. I guess you could say I'm a syncretist when it comes to Tolkien's legendarium: if something seems plausible or simplest solution to the matter and the timelines don't directly contradict it, I'm going to incorporate it among the overall historical events of the world. 🙂 Before we Tolkien nerds go into a lore showdown, what kind of background will our Elves have in the next game? Will we get a choice like in Origins or a more lore friendly common background like in Inquisition. I just hope that if we do get other races it will be handled better then Inquisition. E.G. Dalish elf not knowing who Mythal is. If we're talking about our PC elf, whether they are a city elf, a Dalish, or a Qunari, I would prefer that they would originate from a place or a city we know little of, so we would be able to learn more about one of those locations we know only as a place on the map. If we are talking about family background, a Qunari elf would hands down have the most interesting one. I don't think we ever did learn if Tama who raised Iron Bull was in fact a man or a woman when going by our definitions. A city elf? I've no horse in this race but I've noticed that people have been hankering for an elven PC who has strong ties to their community and options to express strong community pride. I'm more interested in different customs: Do different alienages use different species of tree as their vhenadahl? We've come across lots of elves wearing cowls in Kirkwall and Val Royeaux; are there elven communities where a cowl is part of one's attire? Do both elven slaves and city elves know how to read the secret Tevinter slave script? What about human slaves? If we are talking about companions, it would be nice to have a character with affinity to a type of magic or a weapon we've seen less thus far. Perhaps now would be time for a warrior who favoured maces or one-handed axes instead of swords. * * * After my previous post the question why the elven models of DAI hadn't bothered me the slightest kept bugging me. Then it finally came to me: DAI elves have similar physique to elves in Wendy Pini's Elfquest comics which I read and loved as a preteen. The elves in them are slender and with a few exceptions shorter than humans. Funnily enough, the Elfquest elves happen to live on a planet called the World of Two Moons.
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 31, 2020 14:00:51 GMT
Can you see it from a different angle? Yes elves are an know race, but do we know were they come from? The silmarillion don't say that. It only tell us about there gods and believes. African, American and Asian people are all human beings. So let us see what we know from the game and take some numbers, facts. We got city-elves, dalish-elves and the elves befor the veil. City-elves are half elf because they mix with the human beings. dalish are lesser mixed with human than city-elves. When we say origions showes us the half elf, i would believe that. than the only question is how would we like to see the race befor the elves. The race befor the human hasn't the same name and look different. We don't know much about the time befor the veil. Solas only say his people i am not sure how much he tell us.(never spoke much with him) But if i take all your wishes in a bottle i find a solution. Origions showes the elves city and dahlish and the alien look, the other part want would be the race befor the veil. But there is one problem and i respect the decisions from Bioware. Abelas... So i think ther will not be a alien look elf in this game. because abelas is the only elf i trust to be an elf race befor the veil.
I trust and respekt Biowares team but one request. No anorexic look, some people will try to look like that and i'm afraid for their health. Please decide and no return.
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