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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 7:38:34 GMT
Since we are heading to Tevinter and there has been an odd Tweet in the past by Mary Kirby equating Necromancy with blood magic, which means all Mortalitasi are in fact blood mages, I think it is worth having an entirely separate thread to discuss the matter. First item for discussion:
The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful the spell becomes. (WoT p.109)
How blood magic gets its power has never been adequately explained anywhere. However, this statement suggests it is something directly to do with amount of suffering inflicted on the person supplying the blood. This has nothing to do with the element of sacrifice because a person can be self sacrificing without using great violence. A willing sacrifice can be a noble thing. To my mind there is nothing noble in the above statement. Essentially it would be impossible to do the most powerful blood magic without an element of pain and suffering being inflicted.
Let me explain. What if a group of people wanted to do some good but had no access to lyrium (like Merrill in DA2)? So they each agree to give an amount of blood so that no one is in danger of death. The mage applies a local anaesthetic to the area where the wound will be made and each person makes a controlled cut. There is no violence, no pain, no death, no suffering. According to the statement above, the spell would be a failure as it would have insufficient power to achieve their aim. Yet it is still blood magic since blood is the factor being used, it still taps their life force and a large number of people have contributed to the project.
Scenario two. A person wants to create a powerful spell but has an aversion to blood. So instead they torture their victims in some way that doesn't involve blood. Perhaps they cause mass asphyxiation, the victims slowly suffocating to death, or may be a mass immolation. Surely that would qualify as a violent death with much pain and suffering? Yet apparently that would no work.
So are we to take the statement with a pinch of salt? Is it just the opinion of some scholar who has been heavily influenced by the southern Chantry? (Which is the argument the writers often make when statements in WoT are subsequently disproved)?
What of Dorian, Merrill and Solas, who all defended the use of blood magic and argued against the idea it was inherently evil. Are we to believe that Dorian and Solas, who probably do know the mechanics of blood magic, think there is nothing morally wrong with using a form of magic that only works because of the pain and suffering inflicted and the violence used?
Remember the Divine who first condemned blood magic did so not because of the mechanics of blood magic but the sort of unique spells that it can perform that control a person's mind. Even if the Divine did not fully understand the magic, I am sure someone could have enlightened her about the need for violence, pain and suffering. Would that not have been a good reason to condemn it, even without the mind control?
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 2, 2020 7:51:00 GMT
I would not interpret Dorian’s comments on blood magic as a defence of it. All he says is that it’s not *inherently* evil. However, he makes the point that trying to practice blood magic ethically only gets you so far, and that leads to a slippery slope.
It makes perfect sense to me that blood magic is powered through sacrifice and suffering. If all you needed was the blood, then you could just store up blood and then slosh it around when it’s time to make magic. But if blood magic is powered through pain, then it doesn’t matter how much blood you have on hand - you still need to get out the old knife and start slitting wrists for the magic to work.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 8:02:04 GMT
2nd item for discussion:
Necromancy is a form of blood magic
According to Mary Kirby the Mortalitasi are in fact blood mages. It is just that no one in the south recognises that fact. This seems odd. Most "death" magic uses spells that come from either the schools of either spirit or entropy. As such they can be performed by any mage and are not exclusive to blood magic. So why are Necromancers blood mages? Their work is closely associated with death but most of the spells act on those already dead and do not require them to be the cause of it. They also bind spirits. Whilst this is a form of mind control/enslavement it must involve some other process than blood magic. Why? Because the mind control spell blood slave does not work on creatures that do not have blood. It seems to me it is likely more closely related to the spell animate dead and that is from the spirit school. So whilst a mage without access to lyrium might need to use blood magic to have the required amount of mana to bind the spirits, blood is not a requirement per se. Nor would it seem that a violent death is a pre-requisite either as the Mortalitasi work with corpses of people who have died peacefully in their sleep as well as from untimely, violent causes.
So unless there is something about the burial practices of the Mortalitasi that we have not been told, there seems no reason on the face of it to declare they are all blood mages. Likewise, Dorian, who whilst he knows about blood magic, I'm pretty sure implied he was not a blood mage. Okay, it might have been expedient in the south considering their laws on blood magic but none of his specialist spells had any connection with the use of blood.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jul 2, 2020 8:07:40 GMT
Pulling a quote from the other thread... Likewise, nobody has to keep using blood magic once they start - Malcolm Hawke was a blood mage, but he hated being one and gave it up.And that is why the usual southern rhetoric of " By the Maker, blood magic!!!!!!!!!!" is pretty much BS to me. As far as I remember, the Wardens forced him to do one blood magic ritual. Alas, now he's guilty forever... Yes, that fits nicely into Chantry rhetorics of original sin shtick. Does not make it any less BS. --- Also, regarding Dorian and Necromancy. He does not seem to use pain to fuel any of his spells, at least not physical pain (if mental is a thing). While Cole gets upset at a Necro Inquisitor for harming spirits, this harm/pain is the result of the spell, not the way it is powered. If pain felt by spirits is a thing at all for the discussion, that is.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 8:12:17 GMT
It makes perfect sense to me that blood magic is powered through sacrifice and suffering. These two things do not have to go together. You can make a sacrifice of blood, giving a part of your life force, without it entailing violence and suffering. As I say above, if you applied a local anaesthetic to the area, you wouldn't even feel pain, but you are still sacrificing your blood. If it requires you to give something in order to receive the power, the condition has been met. Thus the process is not inherently evil but only what the power is used for. If violence and pain are a necessary part of the exchange, then this is inherently evil, particularly when you are inflicting it on someone else. However, even if they are willing victims, for example, in some sort of suicide pact to achieve their goal, then it is still morally objectionable. It is certainly not a case of being just "another form of magic", because no other magic requires the infliction of violence and pain simply for it to work.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 8:18:41 GMT
Also, regarding Dorian and Necromancy. He does not seem to use pain to fuel any of his spells, at least not physical pain (if mental is a thing). While Cole gets upset at a Necro Inquisitor for harming spirits, this harm/pain is the result of the spell, not the way it is powered. If pain felt by spirits is a thing at all for the discussion, that is. However, if this is the case, then it is necessary for him to inflict violence (yanking them through the Veil against their will) and pain for it to work. Thus I can see Cole's objections and why it makes it like blood magic in that respect but that does not make it blood magic. When a Necromancer Inquisitor discuss the matter with Solas, it always struck me as strange that he wasn't as upset as Cole, but I now think he was just turning a blind eye and using equivocation to cover his true feelings on the matter.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 8:24:31 GMT
And that is why the usual southern rhetoric of " By the Maker, blood magic!!!!!!!!!!" is pretty much BS to me. As far as I remember, the Wardens forced him to do one blood magic ritual. Alas, now he's guilty forever... Yes, that fits nicely into Chantry rhetorics of original sin shtick. Does not make it any less BS. I am not asking whether or not the Chantry are right to condemn blood mages, because, as I state above, the reason for the Divine's condemnation had nothing to do with the mechanics of blood magic but only certain spells that are unique to the blood magic school. Given what WoT says about the association between violence/pain and blood magic, I am surprised the Divine did not also use that as a reason to condemn it. Which is why I question the whole premise that blood magic depends on violence and pain for it to work. Not to mention why is this the case? Why does this give the magic its power? It suggests there is a mind behind the source because if it was wholly neutral, like the Fade, why does it depend on violence and pain, rather than simply the amount of blood?
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Post by Sartoz on Jul 2, 2020 8:25:55 GMT
Frankly, one must remember that blood magic is a tool that a fantasy writer came up with to provide another school of magic. I really doubt the writer did an extensive analysis of its possible use. Bits were added later on, perhaps by different authors (in comics / books ?).
What the writer(s) failed to take into account is that this potential demon turning is limited. It only affects NPCs, which is laughable. Turning the Warden or Hawke into a demon for using BM, simply won't do. Right? ... right. So, our intrepid heroine can use BM at will otherwise the game would come to an abrupt halt. `(*>﹏<*)′
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Post by colfoley on Jul 2, 2020 8:44:54 GMT
And that is why the usual southern rhetoric of " By the Maker, blood magic!!!!!!!!!!" is pretty much BS to me. As far as I remember, the Wardens forced him to do one blood magic ritual. Alas, now he's guilty forever... Yes, that fits nicely into Chantry rhetorics of original sin shtick. Does not make it any less BS. I am not asking whether or not the Chantry are right to condemn blood mages, because, as I state above, the reason for the Divine's condemnation had nothing to do with the mechanics of blood magic but only certain spells that are unique to the blood magic school. Given what WoT says about the association between violence/pain and blood magic, I am surprised the Divine did not also use that as a reason to condemn it. Which is why I question the whole premise that blood magic depends on violence and pain for it to work. Not to mention why is this the case? Why does this give the magic its power? It suggests there is a mind behind the source because if it was wholly neutral, like the Fade, why does it depend on violence and pain, rather than simply the amount of blood? its possible that its only the really *evil* spells require more *power* and hence likely more pain and suffering. The Warden joining spell and phylactory example seem very weak, very specific examples of the brand.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jul 2, 2020 8:51:52 GMT
Also, regarding Dorian and Necromancy. He does not seem to use pain to fuel any of his spells, at least not physical pain (if mental is a thing). While Cole gets upset at a Necro Inquisitor for harming spirits, this harm/pain is the result of the spell, not the way it is powered. If pain felt by spirits is a thing at all for the discussion, that is. However, if this is the case, then it is necessary for him to inflict violence (yanking them through the Veil against their will) and pain for it to work. Thus I can see Cole's objections and why it makes it like blood magic in that respect but that does not make it blood magic. When a Necromancer Inquisitor discuss the matter with Solas, it always struck me as strange that he wasn't as upset as Cole, but I now think he was just turning a blind eye and using equivocation to cover his true feelings on the matter. In that case, it seems to be an effect that basically powers itself, as you said. Otherwise I agree, especially given this one TN thing with Solas getting mad at a Mortalitasi for using a spirit as a tea spoon (?) And that is why the usual southern rhetoric of " By the Maker, blood magic!!!!!!!!!!" is pretty much BS to me. As far as I remember, the Wardens forced him to do one blood magic ritual. Alas, now he's guilty forever... Yes, that fits nicely into Chantry rhetorics of original sin shtick. Does not make it any less BS. I am not asking whether or not the Chantry are right to condemn blood mages, because, as I state above, the reason for the Divine's condemnation had nothing to do with the mechanics of blood magic but only certain spells that are unique to the blood magic school. Given what WoT says about the association between violence/pain and blood magic, I am surprised the Divine did not also use that as a reason to condemn it. Which is why I question the whole premise that blood magic depends on violence and pain for it to work. Not to mention why is this the case? Why does this give the magic its power? It suggests there is a mind behind the source because if it was wholly neutral, like the Fade, why does it depend on violence and pain, rather than simply the amount of blood? And I think that what I mentioned is somewhat part of the whole issue about source bias regarding blood magic, to some extent.
For the second part, my best guess is it could be something like pain=strong (negative) emotion which attracts spirits who associate with that for some reason and using those spirits to power spells? That would somewhat conflate blood magic and demon summoning though.
Frankly, one must remember that blood magic is a tool that a fantasy writer came up with to provide another school of magic. I really doubt the writer did an extensive analysis of its possible use. Bits were added later on, perhaps by different authors (in comics / books ?).
What the writer(s) failed to take into account is that this potential demon turning is limited. It only affects NPCs, which is laughable. Turning the Warden or Hawke into a demon for using BM, simply won't do. Right? ... right. So, our intrepid heroine can use BM at will otherwise the game would come to an abrupt halt. `(*>﹏<*)′ Yeah, one could put this forward for a lot of powers in terms of gameplay-story segregation. Reavers spontaneuosly growing scales. Berserkers being unable to restrain themselves and killing someone. Templars losing their powers if they do not take lyrium regularly, apart from the fact that the only powers on a player's Templar spec which are lore-backed are magic resistance, dispel and anything that hinders/prevents casting (Silence/Mana drain), but not feedback ("Mana Burn") damage nor the ridiculous spirit damage nova. That one seems to be ripped from DAA's Spirit Warrior, besides... how is it supposed to work anyway? Farting lyrium to poison surrounding baddies?
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Post by theascendent on Jul 2, 2020 10:13:58 GMT
Wouldn't mind choosing Blood Mage as a specialisation, just make it believable. Why would we pick this spec? It has useful powers and abilities. Annoying NPC won't cooperate, then 'persuade' them with a little spilt blood and they are now much more cooperative. Summoned/bound demon about to attack us, break/subvert the warding and now we have a useful ally or the opponent has one less. Where do we get the blood from? Our own or 'borrow' some from friends and enemies. Where did we learn it from? Forgotten One (I believe that the Formless one is the last one left), slumbering Old God (pick one of two to speak with us as we sleep), escaped Evanuris? What are the consequences of picking blood mage? Social stigma, if we are caught. I don't doubt that Blood Magic will be a useful power considering how heavily contaminated and unreliable lyrium has become in this day and age. But if we go down this path make it clear that while this kind of magic is powerful, but there must be consequences for our actions otherwise everyone would pick it.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 2, 2020 11:17:40 GMT
Can you post the Mary Kirby quotes?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jul 2, 2020 11:22:17 GMT
Can you post the Mary Kirby quotes? Desert Island Girl @ariadnesisland If you have a chance, I had two weeny DA lore questions: Do Templar powers affect spells cast by blood magic (like fireballs cast that way, not the mind control); is necromancy like Dorian uses necessarily blood magic? Mary Kirby @biomarykirby Yes to both Desert Island Girl @ariadnesisland Thanks! So when Cullen says “I can accept that necromancy isn’t blood magic” in the Necromancer spec war table, is it one of those “It’s so widespread in Nevarra we turn a Chantry blind eye to it” sort of things, like phylacteries? Mary Kirby @biomarykirby The Nevarrans consider necromancy just a standard burial practice. It's totally blood magic, but nobody would ever argue that point with the Mortalitassi. midnight tea found/posted it in the Twitter thread.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 2, 2020 11:33:47 GMT
Pulling a quote from the other thread... Likewise, nobody has to keep using blood magic once they start - Malcolm Hawke was a blood mage, but he hated being one and gave it up.And that is why the usual southern rhetoric of " By the Maker, blood magic!!!!!!!!!!" is pretty much BS to me. As far as I remember, the Wardens forced him to do one blood magic ritual. Alas, now he's guilty forever... Yes, that fits nicely into Chantry rhetorics of original sin shtick. Does not make it any less BS. --- Also, regarding Dorian and Necromancy. He does not seem to use pain to fuel any of his spells, at least not physical pain (if mental is a thing). While Cole gets upset at a Necro Inquisitor for harming spirits, this harm/pain is the result of the spell, not the way it is powered. If pain felt by spirits is a thing at all for the discussion, that is. Well, according to Cole, apparently it is. Spirits are feeling some sort of hurt and distress, even if they aren't hurting physically per se (in Trespasser Cole literally screams to library spirit 'stop, you're hurting yourself!'). And again - what powers blood magic is sacrifice of life's energy. So, as long as spirits have life's energy (and they clearly have, even the wisps) they can be utilized to power blood magic elements present in, say, necromancy. Here are next few relevant tweets from Patrick Weekes.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 2, 2020 11:45:46 GMT
But given that it’s tied to conception and still weakens person having cramps, that feels like enough of a sacrifice that it’d work. Except not all people experience menstruation the same way, so the whole period = cramps and that accounts for the requisite suffering required for blood magic is highly situational, so much so as to not be a reliable source of power.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 13:22:37 GMT
Patrick WeekesHonestly I would have to do more research on menstruation to answer that question confidently, since blood magic is tied to sacrifice of life energy — a wound, specifically. Blood on its own may be an ingredient, but not a power source. You see here he only talks about the sacrifice element. That I can understand; you are sacrificing your own or another person's life energy in blood letting. The person gains power to cast their spell at the expense of their health (or someone else's health). So the more powerful the spell the more life energy you need to fuel it. That is quite different from linking the strength of the spell to violence and pain as though it is those emotional experiences that are the pay off to whatever being is giving you the power. That would be true if the use of blood magic always required the services of a demon, not just to teach it in the first place but to fuel the spell. They have definitely gone back and forth on this but in DA2 the codex on the blood magic school said the following: " Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there." So this is directly refuting the idea that it is the emotions that the practice creates that entice a demon into working for you. It quite clearly says it is tied to the physical. Yet if it is the violence and pain that makes for a stronger spell then it is actually tied to the spiritual, mental and emotional states. PW makes no mention of the pre-requisite for violence and pain in his answer, merely the need for it to be a genuine sacrifice of your life-force through a deliberate action and not something that occurs naturally, although it is possible that as mensuration can weaken the woman through the loss of blood that it might qualify as a sacrifice of life-force.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 13:42:52 GMT
And again - what powers blood magic is sacrifice of life's energy. So, as long as spirits have life's energy (and they clearly have, even the wisps) they can be utilized to power blood magic elements present in, say, necromancy What are the blood magic elements in Necromancy though? None of the spells of Necromancy require the use or manipulation of blood, although in fact it is never said how exactly the Necromancer binds the spirits. All the description in DAI says is that they use spirits attracted to the site of death who then perform various actions on their behalf. In some ways, this seems the direct opposite to how blood magic is described in DA2 as it quite definitely states that it does not require pacts with spirits or demons. Now Cole objects to Necromancy because of the damage caused to the spirits being used. Like I say above, Solas equivocates because he says you are using "wisps too simple to be considered spirits" and that "so long as no intelligent spirits are harmed it may be a wise and effective strategy". Well they are intelligent enough to act on behalf of the Necromancer and Cole considers them spirits and he should know, so I think we should focus on the word "may" in Solas' assessment of the situation and assume that the Dread Wolf has now declared war on the entire sect of the Mortalitasi for the way in which they bind spirits and thus on Necromancy as well. Whilst he refrains on criticising the Inquisitor, he clearly despises Dorian's attitude towards spirits and regards the use of any spirit, even a simple wisp as worthy of punishment. (See Tevinter Nights)
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 2, 2020 14:08:44 GMT
And again - what powers blood magic is sacrifice of life's energy. So, as long as spirits have life's energy (and they clearly have, even the wisps) they can be utilized to power blood magic elements present in, say, necromancy What are the blood magic elements in Necromancy though? None of the spells of Necromancy require the use or manipulation of blood, although in fact it is never said how exactly the Necromancer binds the spirits. All the description in DAI says is that they use spirits attracted to the site of death who then perform various actions on their behalf. In some ways, this seems the direct opposite to how blood magic is described in DA2 as it quite definitely states that it does not require pacts with spirits or demons. ...But... which part of 'sacrifice of life's energy' says anything about blood? 'Life's energy' isn't blood per se, clearly, even if it could be viewed as such figuratively. So why are you insistent that *this has to be blood* when both PW and Mary Kirby made statements make it pretty clear that the vital component in blood magic isn't blood on its own, but sacrifice and pain. There's LITERALLY a segment in PW's comment that says "blood on its own may be an ingredient, but not a power source". The Mortalitaasi not only was on Solas's hit list for what she did in Nevarra, she didn't bind a wisp (or a lesser spirit or whatever it was) in a well-meaning way (defeat the bad guys, stop the world from falling apart, etc) but enslaved it to serve her in doing something frivolous and was angry at it for no reason other than stirring her drink somewhat wrong. His tiff with Dorian wasn't about using spirits, but HOW they were used and viewed (as mindless tools bound into service for who knows how long) - not because he was a Necromancer on its own, even if he does have some objections over binding wisps.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 2, 2020 14:40:34 GMT
These two things do not have to go together. You can make a sacrifice of blood, giving a part of your life force, without it entailing violence and suffering. As I say above, if you applied a local anaesthetic to the area, you wouldn't even feel pain, but you are still sacrificing your blood. Then the blood magic likely wouldn’t work. If there was a pain-free method of using blood magic, don’t you think the Tevinters would have figured it out by now? But they’re still slashing wrists and conducting sacrifices on altars.
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Post by theascendent on Jul 2, 2020 15:03:41 GMT
Do Mages naturally have lyrium in their blood like *shudder* midichlorians and that is what the blood Mages utilise when performing their magic. Or is there some other ingredient in blood that allows one to do a 'different' kind of magic like the Blight magic with Darkspawn.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 2, 2020 15:47:01 GMT
Do Mages naturally have lyrium in their blood like *shudder* midichlorians and that is that the blood Mages utilise when performing their magic. Or is there some other ingredient in blood that allows one to do a 'different' kind of magic like the Blight magic with Darkspawn. To my knowledge, this has never been specified. We know magical ability is inherited, but I believe this is regarding an individual's connection to the Fade and the ability to draw power from the Fade, not as a component of blood itself.
Mana is that which defines a mage. It is potential that dwells within a person but does not always manifest itself. All men are connected to the Fade; we go there to dream. But only those with this potential may draw upon its power. Mana is, then, a measurement of one's ability to draw power from the Fade, and it is this power that is expended in magic.
The above is borne out by the fact that dwaves aren't connected to the Fade, and thus cannot dream (they "sleep like the Stone") or do magic. (Yes, I know there is stuff in Descent regarding this. I have not played Descent, so don't have any of that info in my knowledge bank.)
I have no comment on Blight magic, though.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 2, 2020 16:30:09 GMT
These two things do not have to go together. You can make a sacrifice of blood, giving a part of your life force, without it entailing violence and suffering. As I say above, if you applied a local anaesthetic to the area, you wouldn't even feel pain, but you are still sacrificing your blood. Then the blood magic likely wouldn’t work. If there was a pain-free method of using blood magic, don’t you think the Tevinters would have figured it out by now? But they’re still slashing wrists and conducting sacrifices on altars. I mean... clearly Necromancy is free of physical pain, even if it does require a sacrifice of life's energy somewhere else. Pain doesn't seem as necessary as act of sacrifice, be it willing or not.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 2, 2020 16:37:33 GMT
I would not interpret Dorian’s comments on blood magic as a defence of it. All he says is that it’s not *inherently* evil. However, he makes the point that trying to practice blood magic ethically only gets you so far, and that leads to a slippery slope. It makes perfect sense to me that blood magic is powered through sacrifice and suffering. If all you needed was the blood, then you could just store up blood and then slosh it around when it’s time to make magic. But if blood magic is powered through pain, then it doesn’t matter how much blood you have on hand - you still need to get out the old knife and start slitting wrists for the magic to work. I thin kit' actuall ymoe rlike what Jowan says in DAO really in tha tblood magi is essentially usin glife energy t opower a spell instead of using Lyrium to power it. The only inherentl yba dthing about BM that I think is noted is tha twhil eit does make mages i tals mqakes them more vulnerable to demon possession an it's fo rthese reasons why the magic is outlawed in most ofThedas.I say most of because in Dorian's homelan Tevinter it's a bit unclear as to what is allowed and what isn't
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 2, 2020 17:01:23 GMT
Here's the fun part - lyrium is Titan's blood, and thus its life energy. Technically every lyrium usage or anything using lyrium may potentially be categorized as blood magic.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 2, 2020 17:44:36 GMT
Here's the fun part - lyrium is Titan's blood, and thus its life energy. Technically every lyrium usage or anything using lyrium may potentially be categorized as blood magic. That is true and it does seem likely that no one asked the titan if it wanted its blood farmed or alternatively it comes from the corpse of a titan that died at Mythal's hands. Strangely enough it was learning that lyrium is really blood that made me start to re-evaluate the use of blood magic. Surely a mage using their own blood is actually more ethical than using lyrium? I was inclined to agree with Solas that whether the source of the mana is the Fade or the blood, the magic created is neutral when it comes to morality and it is the source of the blood and the uses to which it is put that determines if a spell is good or evil. Pain doesn't seem as necessary as act of sacrifice, be it willing or not. Exactly, which again is why I started to re-think the whole blood magic is evil aspect. PW only says that sacrifice is necessary for it to be considered a legitimate life source; he says nothing about the need for violence or pain. Then, as other people have pointed out, you see that entry in World of Thedas and I'm back on the side of it being dubious to say the least. I certainly wouldn't categorise it as just another form of magic because magic that draws on the Fade, as far as we know, does not require anyone to suffer pain, so there is a clear difference between the two. Do Mages naturally have lyrium in their blood like *shudder* midichlorians and that is that the blood Mages utilise when performing their magic Like elves, mages would seem to have magic in their blood (according to Kieran at least) and it was also stated in Calpernia's story that slave mages are often used in magical experiments because their blood is more potent. So it would seem that in Tevinter the preference is either for slave mage or slave elf blood when conducting blood magic sacrifices but failing that I assume anyone would do but probably in greater numbers. Except that surely the pain felt by them is pretty much the same, so why the preference for elf or mage blood if it is the level of pain, not the blood itself that give the spell its potency? Then the blood magic likely wouldn’t work. If there was a pain-free method of using blood magic, don’t you think the Tevinters would have figured it out by now? But they’re still slashing wrists and conducting sacrifices on altars. Since on the whole they use expendable slaves they probably don't care if it causes pain or not. However, that doesn't mean it has to be the increase in pain levels that makes a spell more powerful. The more blood that is let, the more life force you are utilising, so surely it is that which fuels the spell, with any pain just a by-product of the procedure? The more blood you use, the more life force is utilised and the more powerful the spell makes sense. You expend health, you get mana: it is a straight forward exchange. Yet, according to WoT this is not the case, and you could just use a small amount of blood provided the violence and pain in doing so was great enough. Why is this the case if it is meant to be a physical source of magic? What is it about pain that makes it a trade off for mana? What is the source of this power? A demon? An Old God? The Maker? Now according to Threnodies 6 of the Chant of Light, the demon (Old God Dumat) when he first did his deal with Thalsian required the King of the Neromenians to renounce the Maker and make burned offerings of oxen and horses. Since the poor creatures were probably terrified and suffered a great deal, may be the Old Gods did grant power in exchange for violence and pain, although note that in this case it was not human sacrifice. May be that came later when the demon decided that animal pain was not enough. So since Dumat was said to have taught Thalsian blood magic it may well be that he insisted that pain should be an integral part of the sacrifice because it would seem that Dumat did get off on that sort of thing. Is it really necessary for the blood magic to work though? Just to muddy the waters still further, in the Mortalitassi's tale in the Dread Wolf Take You, she claims that the servants/slaves of the Tevinter mage were in a trance when he killed them. So wouldn't that effect the level of pain? It is also noticeable that she claims the Mortalitassi mages were pumped up with lyrium but then again I doubt she would care to admit they used blood magic in front of Charter. The Carter assassin totally calls her out on that though.
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