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Post by Iddy on Jul 24, 2020 17:59:05 GMT
Corypheus actually lived in ancient Tevinter, and was the high priest of Dumat to boot. If even he isn't sure about whether the Old Gods are real, what does that say about them?
This is comparable to meeting Abelas and hearing him tell you "I don't know if there ever was a Mythal".
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 24, 2020 19:45:27 GMT
Corypheus actually lived in ancient Tevinter, and was the high priest of Dumat to boot. If even he isn't sure about whether the Old Gods are real, what does that say about them? This is comparable to meeting Abelas and hearing him tell you "I don't know if there ever was a Mythal". I guess Cory's just less confident in his own memories, after his long sleep? (Abelas had a long sleep too, but the spell that put him under was probably designed not to have serious effects on his mental stability, since he was meant to be able to wake up ready to kick ass. Cory was never meant to wake up.)
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Post by Reznore on Jul 24, 2020 19:49:18 GMT
Mythal was an actual ruler during the days of the Elven Empire.
If memory serve, nobody ever saw the old Gods, except in dreams, or talking through the fade, and I guess once they got turned in Archdemon. And there's that whole Golden City Field Trip, allegedly Dumat said "Go ! It's gonna be great" and well...Although there are talk of the old gods going silent before that. Anyway a number of things could be talking through the fade. Maybe that whole Dumat thing was a prank.
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sjsharp2010
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 25, 2020 11:07:47 GMT
Corypheus actually lived in ancient Tevinter, and was the high priest of Dumat to boot. If even he isn't sure about whether the Old Gods are real, what does that say about them? This is comparable to meeting Abelas and hearing him tell you "I don't know if there ever was a Mythal". I guess Cory's just less confident in his own memories, after his long sleep? (Abelas had a long sleep too, but the spell that put him under was probably designed not to have serious effects on his mental stability, since he was meant to be able to wake up ready to kick ass. Cory was never meant to wake up.) I think he was partly panicking as well given the Inquisitor had him nailed to the wall given this is where you ultimately defeat him and he knew the Inquisitor had him cornered as he had no one t ojump into as he can only jump into people that have the blight which is something the quizzy knows at this point.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 25, 2020 16:47:30 GMT
I guess Cory's just less confident in his own memories, after his long sleep? (Abelas had a long sleep too, but the spell that put him under was probably designed not to have serious effects on his mental stability, since he was meant to be able to wake up ready to kick ass. Cory was never meant to wake up.) I think he was partly panicking as well given the Inquisitor had hi mnailed t othe wall given this is wher you ultimately defeat him and he knwe the Inquisito had him cornmered as he had no one t ojump into as he can only jump int opeople tha thav the blight which is something the quizzy knows at this point. What
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 25, 2020 17:02:33 GMT
I guess Cory's just less confident in his own memories, after his long sleep? (Abelas had a long sleep too, but the spell that put him under was probably designed not to have serious effects on his mental stability, since he was meant to be able to wake up ready to kick ass. Cory was never meant to wake up.) I think he was partly panicking as well given the Inquisitor had hi mnailed t othe wall given this is wher you ultimately defeat him and he knwe the Inquisito had him cornmered as he had no one t ojump into as he can only jump int opeople tha thav the blight which is something the quizzy knows at this point. I mean, I could buy that it's partially out of panic when he realized he couldn't do a jump. But it's less that he had nobody to jump to, and more that he couldn't jump at all. If Morrigan has the Well of Sorrows, she asserts that he can jump to anyone who has the Blight, at any range. That's why the dragon had to die before Cory did: he'd essentially made it part of himself, so when it died, he was temporarily unable to switch bodies. (He did want to have Grey Wardens right next to him at the Temple of Mythal, but that was probably because he'd wanted to make sure he could respawn right where he'd died.)
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sjsharp2010
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Go Team!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 25, 2020 17:12:28 GMT
I think he was partly panicking as well given the Inquisitor had hi mnailed t othe wall given this is wher you ultimately defeat him and he knwe the Inquisito had him cornmered as he had no one t ojump into as he can only jump int opeople tha thav the blight which is something the quizzy knows at this point. I mean, I could buy that it's partially out of panic when he realized he couldn't do a jump. But it's less that he had nobody to jump to, and more that he couldn't jump at all. If Morrigan has the Well of Sorrows, she asserts that he can jump to anyone who has the Blight, at any range. That's why the dragon had to die before Cory did: he'd essentially made it part of himself, so when it died, he was temporarily unable to switch bodies. (He did want to have Grey Wardens right next to him at the Temple of Mythal, but that was probably because he'd wanted to make sure he could respawn right where he'd died.) Yeah that's why he wanted the warden's he had unde rhis conrtol by hi ssie so he could jump right then i fthe quizzy had managed t ocatch up t ohim and attempted to corner him. So there he a tleas thad a fall back plan he didn't have on ereally when you corner him at th etempl ean dals with his pet dragon dead he pretty much had nowhree lfet t orun. H edidn' tneed the dragon so much to jump bodies thoug hbecause remembe rhe hadalerad yshowed he coulfd jump when we firs tfind him as Hawke in DA2 we jus tdidn't know he'd jumped into Larius/Janeka' s bodies. We only figuered that out later when we discovered he had this ability so he didn't need the dragon the dragon just made it easier to pull off.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 25, 2020 17:32:31 GMT
I mean, I could buy that it's partially out of panic when he realized he couldn't do a jump. But it's less that he had nobody to jump to, and more that he couldn't jump at all. If Morrigan has the Well of Sorrows, she asserts that he can jump to anyone who has the Blight, at any range. That's why the dragon had to die before Cory did: he'd essentially made it part of himself, so when it died, he was temporarily unable to switch bodies. (He did want to have Grey Wardens right next to him at the Temple of Mythal, but that was probably because he'd wanted to make sure he could respawn right where he'd died.) Yeah that's why he wanted the warden's he had unde rhis conrtol by hi ssie so he could jump right then i fthe quizzy had managed t ocatch up t ohim and attempted to corner him. So there he a tleas thad a fall back plan he didn't have on ereally when you corner him at th etempl ean dals with his pet dragon dead he pretty much had nowhree lfet t orun. H edidn' tneed the dragon so much to jump bodies thoug hbecause remembe rhe hadalerad yshowed he coulfd jump when we firs tfind him as Hawke in DA2 we jus tdidn't know he'd jumped into Larius/Janeka' s bodies. We only figuered that out later when we discovered he had this ability so he didn't need the dragon the dragon just made it easier to pull off. He didn't need the dragon, no. I don't think creating it even made the process easier: I think he just did that to use the dragon as a (proverbial) attack dog. The reason he can't jump when it dies isn't because he's using it to jump, but because he's put a big chunk of himself into it (probably using elven magic, since we learn this from the Well, and therefore the combined knowledge of the ancient priests of Mythal is enough to figure this out) and having it die throws him for a loop.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 25, 2020 22:05:02 GMT
Corypheus actually lived in ancient Tevinter, and was the high priest of Dumat to boot. If even he isn't sure about whether the Old Gods are real, what does that say about them? There are a lot of strange contradictory things said about the Old Gods, particularly in the Nightmare demon's realm. For example, the memory of the priest when the Arch-demon surfaces. He seems to know it is Dumat but how if they have never seen him? Does he just assume that a big powerful dragon spewing spiritually corrupt magic has to be an Old God? Remember this was meant to be a memory at the very beginning of the First Blight, so some 100 years before the foundation of the Grey Wardens, who might have been able to identify arch-demons by their connection to them. Then there is the memory of Corypheus' servant. Now according to everything we were told previously, worship of the Old Gods was meant to be at its height just before the First Blight but according to the servant Corypheus embarked on his mission to the Golden city because they were losing worshipers, so it would seem Dumat had suggested coming to see him in person would give Corypheus the sort of status that would win back the faithful. Assuming of course that the voices in his dreams were the Old Gods. I have wondered if in fact the gods had stopped communicating before the ritual, this was why people were exhibiting a lack of faith and so Corypheus went to the Golden City to try and re-establish contact. However, when Hawke woke him he definitely complains "it was meant to be golden" in such a way that you feel someone (Dumat) told him it would be. Mind you, I assume that the city appeared golden in the Fade until they visited it and discovered the truth, so may be that is what he meant. A question that I would like answered is where was Corypheus during the First Blight? The Grey Wardens only discovered him after it ended. Could it be that he was rendered unconscious by the "darkness" and he only revived after Dumat had been killed? Anyway, if we ignore the anomalies in the Fade, Old God worship was based on contact via dreams but never in person. Presumably the reason they were worshipped as dragons was that if asked what they looked like, the priest was given the vision of a dragon. Also the first people to worship them were the Neromenians and they held dragons in high regard, even thinking their heroes were reborn as dragons, so may be they also believed that their gods would take the form of a sacred dragon. The Ancient Tevinter believed the Golden City was the home of the gods, never underground. So Corypheus definitely thought that he was going to meet his god, Dumat, when he went to the Golden City. Instead he found a Black City and an empty throne. So that alone should have given him reason to doubt the existence of Dumat. Which is also presumably why he thought a repeat visit to assume the throne of godhood wasn't going to offend any other deities because so far as he was concerned they no longer existed. However, when facing final destruction, clearly he became desperate and made his plea, though why he thought Dumat would help him when he had been so faithless is anyone's guess. It is odd that he doubted he existed because if he knew the Chantry dogma concerning the Maker and also had had contact with the Grey Wardens, you would at least think he would know that they claimed to have killed Dumat. Therefore he had definitely existed by could no longer help anyone, so what would be the point of calling on him? Also, given that Erimond had been encouraging the Grey Wardens to think they should summon a demon army to kill the last two Old Gods, surely that meant Corypheus should be aware that these two Old Gods did still exist and if he was going to appeal to anyone it should have been them. Anyway, that final despairing speech of Corypheus was just that; the cry of someone who had totally lost faith in everyone including himself.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2020 19:04:05 GMT
Corypheus actually lived in ancient Tevinter, and was the high priest of Dumat to boot There is another curiosity in that memory in the Fade. The servant says that his master told him he should now call him Corypheus as that would be the name he would take for himself after the ritual. This is very close to the Latin Coryphaeus meaning leader, which would make sense considering Tevene is based on Latin. However, in the Canticle of Silence the various high priests of the Old Gods are given their respective titles. The High Priest of Dumat was known as the Conductor of the Choir of Silence and since the conductor could also be seen as a leader of the choir, I had assumed that was the origin of his name since Hessarian definitely lays blame for the enterprise chiefly on the High Priest of Dumat and then the other High Priests for falling in with his plan. As the second person he consults is the Architect of Beauty, the High Priest of Urthemiel, that seemed to fit with the Architect we had encountered. Now I know the Canticle of Silence was considered to be propaganda by Hessarian in order to turn people against the priesthood of the Old Gods but does the memory of the servant confirm this and in fact the priesthood of the rest of the Old Gods were not culpable at all? In other words it was just a plot cooked up by Dumat and his priesthood, as the Grey Wardens always claimed. After all Corypheus claims that there is no record of the names of those who went to the city but there was certainly a record of the titles of the high priests according to the Canticle of Silence and from there it would not have been difficult to find the names, as we did for him. So may be the Architect wasn't the high priest of Urthemiel at all but simply one of Corypheus' deluded accomplices who took the title because he was one of the architects of the ritual. Thus the other talking darkspawn referred to in the codex we find in Valammar were just other assistants of Corypheus who were knocking around the Deep Roads. I wish we could encounter some more of these so we can get to the truth of the matter. May be there will be other records or references in Tevinter archives.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2020 20:14:35 GMT
I've been having some more thoughts on this. Have we just been assuming that Corypheus was the High Priest of Dumat in his time because of the Canticle of Silence? (Don't go by the Wiki because the author there could have been making the same mistake. Ditto World of Thedas considering this is not meant to be an out of world historical record but is the work of in-world scholars who could similarly be deceived)
The detail Dorian works out from the information we get from the Minrathous Library is:
Dorian has completed his research using the Liberalum and believes he has found a connection between Corypheus and an ancient magister named Sethius of House Amladaris. This will be difficult to prove and may be of limited use, but it's worth noting that House Amladaris still exists. Even the accusation that Corypheus and Sethius are the same person would be worthy of a scandal in Tevinter, one that the current members of that family might be desperate to avoid.
Note there is no mention of him being a High Priest, simply a Magister. Whilst the original Magisterium consisted of the 7 High Priests of the Old Gods, by Corypheus' time it had swelled considerably, even including some Magisters from the Laetans class.
The servant speaks of unveiling an altar but this is within Corypheus' own home. It is perfectly natural for him to have an altar to his god within the family home but surely a High Priest undertaking an important ritual would do so within the actual temple to that god? Likewise, it would seem odd if the High Priests to the other Old Gods would agree to participating in such a ritual within his own home.
This would therefore seem to totally contradict what is contained in the Canticle of Silence. There it definitely says that the ritual was taking place in the Temple of Dumat, with the assistance of a hundred chosen acolytes from the Great Choir of Silence. So the Canticle of Silence was propaganda against political rivals and not an accurate record at all.
It may well be that Corypheus was a member of the priesthood of Dumat, even the chief priest in his locality but not the High Priest of Dumat from Minrathous. According to the memories of his servant it seems likely he involved other members of the priesthood of Dumat in his ritual because he needed them to help undertake the sacrifice. It is noticeable as well that he doesn't mention them bringing any lyrium and they were not using any old slaves but specifically elven ones because Corypheus had discovered a significance about their blood and how the elves of old were tied to the Fade. Clearly he had been taking an interest in the ancient elves before his venture to the Black City. So there is a definite possibility that the Claw of Dumat was an elven artefact.
Anyway, his lack of faith could be explained by the fact he was having a crisis of faith before he went to the Black City, owing to a falling off in worshipers where he was located, probably in the south of the Imperium, may be even Kirkwall itself. By contrast, up in the north in Minrathous where the real High Priest was, the faith was still strong.
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