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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 8:18:35 GMT
OK, it's a bit hard to encapsulate this concept into a snappy thread title, so let me explain.
Some games (i.e. Dragon Age Origins, Half Life etc.) allow you to effectively play at living a bit of normal life before the plot eventually turns toward action and combat, usually as a result of some big thing happening, or you being in the wrong place at the wrong time etc.
Others literally plunge you straight into combat almost as soon as the loading screen ends, i.e Dragon Age 2, Doom etc.) You enter the game as a fighter, you always were a fighter. Any normal life you may have had happened off camera, in the past.
I cannot find the original source, but I do remember one of the devs who worked on Dragon Age Origins explaining in an interview that (to paraphrase very roughly) they'd never attempt to do anything like the origin stories again, as modern gamers prefer instant fast-paced action, and would lack the patience for such a slow start to a modern game.
I dunno who these 'modern gamers' are, but as far as I'm concerned they can go jump in a lake; because I love to have the opportunity to 'live a normal life', in a game, even for a short time. I find that it really adds to the overall immersion, and makes the character's story feel far deeper, more personal and meaningful.
Would you agree? Or would you prefer Dragon Age 4 to literally plunge you immediately into combat right from the first mouse/controller click?
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 6, 2020 8:24:05 GMT
I did like start of DA:O somewhat and DA:I, ME:A and ME1 a lot - for me they're kinda hybrids, you get some info but you are thrown into unknown pretty soon.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 6, 2020 8:39:53 GMT
Of the two, I prefer the origins approach. This was more the pattern with Baldurs Gate, where you start wandering around Candlekeep talking to people and then the events unfold, or Neverwinter Nights 2 where your village is having a celebration, with tests of skill included that allow you to ease into combat gradually, and again you get to chat to people before everything kicks off. With Origins you also got a chance to understand the background community to which you belong.
Just dropping you into the action, as with DA2 and DAI, does makes you rather detached from the world. With DAI it sort of worked because you are meant to be suffering from amnesia but that only really applied to the event that gave you the mark. Still it does add to the sense of you being an outsider who just got involved by accident.
I suppose a lot depends on what they are doing with the plot going forward. I originally thought they might start off with you in a Tevinter city just before the Qunari invasion, so you wander around establishing your character's connection to the world and then it all kicks off when the Qunari attack. I suppose this could still happen. Just because they have already invaded other parts of Tevinter doesn't preclude you from being part of a city that has been free of them up to now.
Otherwise, just dropping you into the middle of a war zone and expecting you to start fighting doesn't really explain your motivation for doing so, or being there in the first place, other than a simple desire to stay alive.
So I suppose what I am saying is that if it makes sense to the way they are telling the story to start you off in combat almost from the outset, then I'm okay with that, but since we are going somewhere completely new, I'd like to get the feel of the place and the people a bit first before I have to start defending myself.
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coldsteelblue
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
PSN: coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on Aug 6, 2020 10:15:31 GMT
I prefer the slower start, build up the character, the setting, a playable prologue to me is literally the best, there's a reason why DA:O is my favorite DA game, I'm able to get a feeling for who my character is & how they might interact with the world. Maybe have an option to skip the prologue for those that have no interest in it, but for me, it's much better storytelling.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 10:39:16 GMT
All that "wander around hometown saving cats from trees" crap should go in the bin and stay there.
"Oh mother! Before I go up the mountain behind our house to perform the adulthood ritual for my 18th birthday, I just want to ask you some questions: What's a chantry? What's a mage? What's an elf? Who's Emperor Flippityfloop Kill-Peasants? Why are you on fire? What's an elf again?"
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 10:55:18 GMT
Given that we're in completely different area of Thedas(likely anyway) with hopefully a noticeably different culture to the ones explored in the last games I think it would be helpful to have a slower start. Let us learn a bit about Tevinter culture and society before we go balls deep(kind of a graphic metaphor but oh well).
The instant starts in DAI and DA2 worked better because we were only popping down the road from where the last game was set but even that a bit of a problem in DAI. Aside from one quest I never really felt like I was 'in' Orlais and this was partly down to the country and the culture never really being introduced in any big way.
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Felya87
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Post by Felya87 on Aug 6, 2020 11:24:25 GMT
I definitely prefer the DAO approach: as much as I love DAI, it still failed, to me, in really explaining how our character ended up with the mark: the how and why they ended up at the right (wrong) place at the right (wrong) time still feel unsatysfing.
At the very least, we need if not an origin prologue, a Ostagar. Dai could have really benefitted from having the Inquisitors going around the Conclave before the Boom. Both to refresh the memory of the mage-Templar conflict, and seeing better the various sides, like those of the loyalists mages and Templars.
A good compromise would be a "boom!" opening, and than going with the "a few hours/days before" flashback to learn what is happening and how our character ended up in the boom! Start. Very movie-esque thing, but I don't find it bad.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 6, 2020 11:25:56 GMT
Aside from one quest I never really felt like I was 'in' Orlais and this was partly down to the country and the culture never really being introduced in any big way. Well of course we started off on the Ferelden side of the Frostbacks. Where being able to wander around delegates at the Conclave would have been helpful was with regard to the mage/Templar situation that had caused it. It would have been helpful to have various views before someone blew it to hell as naturally that tended to colour people's perspectives from then on. So far as Orlais was concerned they really dropped the ball there. Val Royeaux is said to be the most magnificent city in Thedas after Minrathous and the Grand Cathedral is meant to be magnificent. Seeing as the Conclave wasn't held there, so it wasn't blown away, and the emphasis on how we are meant to be appealing to the clergy, why didn't we go there rather than some backwater market place? Also why wasn't it visible on the skyline? Also we never really got to see just how bad things are for the elves in the alienages or how all peasants are treated by the nobles with contempt, in particular the Chevaliers. Everything we had been told about their culture in DAO was largely ignored, apart from the masks (which people do not wear in battle, they are part of court life only) and Masked Empire specifically makes it clear that palace guards do not wear them either. Even the Game was largely toned down. The ruling elite scheme wherever they are, so Orlais didn't seem that much different from anywhere, as I believe both Dorian and Solas point out. Anyway, let's hope they do a better job with Minrathous and Tevinter.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 11:30:57 GMT
Aside from one quest I never really felt like I was 'in' Orlais and this was partly down to the country and the culture never really being introduced in any big way. Well of course we started off on the Ferelden side of the Frostbacks. Where being able to wander around delegates at the Conclave would have been helpful was with regard to the mage/Templar situation that had caused it. It would have been helpful to have various views before someone blew it to hell as naturally that tended to colour people's perspectives from then on. So far as Orlais was concerned they really dropped the ball there. Val Royeaux is said to be the most magnificent city in Thedas after Minrathous and the Grand Cathedral is meant to be magnificent. Seeing as the Conclave wasn't held there, so it wasn't blown away, and the emphasis on how we are meant to be appealing to the clergy, why didn't we go there rather than some backwater market place? Also why wasn't it visible on the skyline? Also we never really got to see just how bad things are for the elves in the alienages or how all peasants are treated by the nobles with contempt, in particular the Chevaliers. Everything we had been told about their culture in DAO was largely ignored, apart from the masks (which people do not wear in battle, they are part of court life only) and Masked Empire specifically makes it clear that palace guards do not wear them either. Even the Game was largely toned down. The ruling elite scheme wherever they are, so Orlais didn't seem that much different from anywhere, as I believe both Dorian and Solas point out. Anyway, let's hope they do a better job with Minrathous and Tevinter. Not to mention that underwhelming ass 'civil war'.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 6, 2020 12:09:40 GMT
Not to mention that underwhelming ass 'civil war'. I believe the Inquisitor said "inane". I really love the aggressive disband option.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 13:23:20 GMT
The instant starts in DAI and DA2 worked better because we were only popping down the road from where the last game was set That won't have helped people who didn't play Origins, or who may have even started with Inquisition. But they somehow figured it out.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 13:48:38 GMT
The instant starts in DAI and DA2 worked better because we were only popping down the road from where the last game was set That won't have helped people who didn't play Origins, or who may have even started with Inquisition. But they somehow figured it out. I couldn't figure it out tbh. In the Wicked Eyes and Wicked hearts I had no idea who Gaspard or Celene was and I could have really been helped by a prologue that introduces these main players.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 13:57:40 GMT
Heck DA2 might've had an instant action start but it possibly had the longest prologue of all the games. The entire first act is basically just saving kittens from trees and meeting characters that will have importance when the real plot begins in acts two and three.
DAI is the only game in the series that lacks a proper prologue and its narrative suffers as a result.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 6, 2020 14:07:13 GMT
I couldn't figure it out tbh. In the Wicked Eyes and Wicked hearts I had no idea who Gaspard or Celene was and I could have really been helped by a prologue that introduces these main players.
What was disappointing was that instead of getting a full picture from the participants and then being credited with enough intelligence to make your own decision, in the end what it boiled down to was how many halla statues you had amassed. It also completely took me by surprise when Leliana suggested the option of putting Briala on the throne as though in reality that was ever a possibility.* Naturally I took it because it amused me to think of an elven Inquisitor having an elf as the power behind the throne but knowing the way Orlais is meant to operate she surely wouldn't have lasted five minutes even if they were in awe of the Inquisitor. If they bumped her off what were we going to do? Throw Orlais back into chaos again? Of course not.
Now the sensible option, if you found enough halla, was to tell them to stop being so stupid and start working together because we have bigger issues to worry about but it was easy to miss all the things you need to get that one, plus you have to spare Florianne and really I got far more satisfaction from fighting her. However, lots of other people die too if you don't just expose her publically, so clearly not the best option.
*It was a similar situation when I got to the end of one run and discovered that Vivienne was Divine. How the heck could that ever have come about? It was nothing to do with me, apart from some arbitrary decision by the writers that certain choices I had made favoured her. However, based on everything we knew about southern Thedas and its attitude to mages in positions of power, it ought to have never even been a possibility. So the politics of the world had rapidly become a lot less credible in my mind, so may be it didn't matter if you really understood what was going on.
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Post by grallon on Aug 6, 2020 14:11:39 GMT
Aside from one quest I never really felt like I was 'in' Orlais and this was partly down to the country and the culture never really being introduced in any big way. Anyway, let's hope they do a better job with Minrathous and Tevinter.
Between the fake accents of the voice actors and the fact Bioware seems to have problems dealing with complexity past a certain point, I doubt they'll do Minrathous justice. Still, I keep hoping they'll take a good long look at Witcher 3's Novigrad. That's how a sprawling, living city should feel like.
As for the OP's question, I got hooked to DAO because of the origin stories. But if that is too much of an effort for a studio hellbent on inserting pay-to-win mechanics and loot boxes in their next title, then a bird's eye view cinematic prologue could do the job of establishing the context I suppose. IF it is well done.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 6, 2020 14:17:28 GMT
Heck DA2 might've had an instant action start but it possibly had the longest prologue of all the games. The entire first act is basically just saving kittens from trees and meeting characters that will have importance when the real plot begins in acts two and three. DAI is the only game in the series that lacks a proper prologue and its narrative suffers as a result. I think, it is a big Problem. In DA2 i don‘t feel the Game. Because we haven‘t Hear of it, Till Then. It only work because our pc don‘t know easer. And we Running trough a big boring city and help Here and help there. Please not again. Than i am out. Denerim was big an overloud, no Green, no Story, only smal boring quest. The same. In Inquisition i think it isn‘t perfekt but the amnesia worked. Yes we musst wait a lot Till we know whats happend, But i can work with That. Origion was really good, but i can Unterstand that some People find it boring. I want to say DAO is Dragon age and When people don‘t like that, look for a game that is different. DA isn‘t a egoshouter or only fightinggame.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 6, 2020 14:17:33 GMT
I definitely prefer the DAO approach: as much as I love DAI, it still failed, to me, in really explaining how our character ended up with the mark: the how and why they ended up at the right (wrong) place at the right (wrong) time still feel unsatysfing. I think the opposite, I liked to being thrown into unknown situation and then later on the how opens up.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 14:22:48 GMT
That won't have helped people who didn't play Origins, or who may have even started with Inquisition. But they somehow figured it out. I couldn't figure it out tbh. In the Wicked Eyes and Wicked hearts I had no idea who Gaspard or Celene was and I could have really been helped by a prologue that introduces these main players. You receive extensive information about them immediately prior to meeting them, and afterwards. The whole mission is information-gathering. I'm genuinely bemused and curious as to what good you think would come of having them "introduced" in a prologue section where (depending on how much free time an individual has), a player might not encounter them again for days or even weeks? How do you imagine that playing out? An opening slideshow of all the major players with accompanying text and narration? "This is Celene, she'll be important later?" Or do you mean like a little scene? "[CAPTION: MEANWHILE, IN ORLAIS...] GASPARD ENTERS FANCY ROOM. CELENE IS SITTING IN CHAIR GASPARD: Good Morning Celene, Empress of Orlais, the fictional country in which we live, which is basically The Simpsons version of France. CELENE: Good Morning Gaspard, my scheming cousin who plots constantly to take my throne from me. Also you have some sort of military position, but that detail isn't particularly relevant. How are you today? GASPARD: I am well. Have you heard that in Haven, which is a town far away from here, that the Chantry, which is like the Catholic Church except ladies, is supervising a peace summit between Mages -which is our word for magic-users- and Templars, which is our word for knights who use magic but we don't call it magic? CELENE: Why no! I hadn't heard, but that is good news! I hope nothing bad happens! [ SUDDENLY, A BURST OF MALEVOLENT GREEN LIGHT IGNITES THE SKY. DEMONS POUR FORTH] CELENE: Oh no, it would seem that someone or something has torn a hole in the Veil, which as you know cousin, is a metaphysical barrier between our material world and some sort of kooky spirit plane that we call the Fade. GASPARD: The Fade is also where dreams come from. Unless you're a dwarf for some reason. CELENE: If only there were a fully-grown adult around who somehow made it their entire life without learning about any of the basic concepts of our known universe. This conversation would be very educational for them."
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 14:23:40 GMT
I couldn't figure it out tbh. In the Wicked Eyes and Wicked hearts I had no idea who Gaspard or Celene was and I could have really been helped by a prologue that introduces these main players.
What was disappointing was that instead of getting a full picture from the participants and then being credited with enough intelligence to make your own decision, in the end what it boiled down to was how many halla statues you had amassed. It also completely took me by surprise when Leliana suggested the option of putting Briala on the throne as though in reality that was ever a possibility.* Naturally I took it because it amused me to think of an elven Inquisitor having an elf as the power behind the throne but knowing the way Orlais is meant to operate she surely wouldn't have lasted five minutes even if they were in awe of the Inquisitor. If they bumped her off what were we going to do? Throw Orlais back into chaos again? Of course not.
Now the sensible option, if you found enough halla, was to tell them to stop being so stupid and start working together because we have bigger issues to worry about but it was easy to miss all the things you need to get that one, plus you have to spare Florianne and really I got far more satisfaction from fighting her. However, lots of other people die too if you don't just expose her publically, so clearly not the best option.
*It was a similar situation when I got to the end of one run and discovered that Vivienne was Divine. How the heck could that ever have come about? It was nothing to do with me, apart from some arbitrary decision by the writers that certain choices I had made favoured her. However, based on everything we knew about southern Thedas and its attitude to mages in positions of power, it ought to have never even been a possibility. So the politics of the world had rapidly become a lot less credible in my mind, so may be it didn't matter if you really understood what was going on. Ah I forgot that anxiety inducing mechanic. Up there with the DAO deep roads in the 'shit I dread to replay' category.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 14:30:29 GMT
I couldn't figure it out tbh. In the Wicked Eyes and Wicked hearts I had no idea who Gaspard or Celene was and I could have really been helped by a prologue that introduces these main players. You receive extensive information about them immediately prior to meeting them, and afterwards. The whole mission is information-gathering. I'm genuinely bemused and curious as to what good you think would come of having them "introduced" in a prologue section where (depending on how much free time an individual has), a player might not encounter them again for days or even weeks? How do you imagine that playing out? An opening slideshow of all the major players with accompanying text and narration? "This is Celene, she'll be important later?" Nah I'm more thinking something along the lines of when you get to meet Loghain and the boys at Ostagar.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 6, 2020 14:31:42 GMT
I couldn't figure it out tbh. In the Wicked Eyes and Wicked hearts I had no idea who Gaspard or Celene was and I could have really been helped by a prologue that introduces these main players. You receive extensive information about them immediately prior to meeting them, and afterwards. The whole mission is information-gathering. I'm genuinely bemused and curious as to what good you think would come of having them "introduced" in a prologue section where (depending on how much free time an individual has), a player might not encounter them again for days or even weeks? How do you imagine that playing out? An opening slideshow of all the major players with accompanying text and narration? "This is Celene, she'll be important later?" Or do you mean like a little scene? "[CAPTION: MEANWHILE, IN ORLAIS...] GASPARD ENTERS FANCY ROOM. CELENE IS SITTING IN CHAIR GASPARD: Good Morning Celene, Empress of Orlais, the fictional country in which we live, which is basically The Simpsons version of France. CELENE: Good Morning Gaspard, my scheming cousin who plots constantly to take my throne from me. Also you have some sort of military position, but that detail isn't particularly relevant. How are you today? GASPARD: I am well. Have you heard that in Haven, which is a town far away from here, that the Chantry, which is like the Catholic Church except ladies, is supervising a peace summit between Mages -which is our word for magic-users- and Templars, which is our word for knights who use magic but we don't call it magic? CELENE: Why no! I hadn't heard, but that is good news! I hope nothing bad happens! [ SUDDENLY, A BURST OF MALEVOLENT GREEN LIGHT IGNITES THE SKY. DEMONS POUR FORTH] CELENE: Oh no, it would seem that someone or something has torn a hole in the Veil, which as you know cousin, is a metaphysical barrier between our material world and some sort of kooky spirit plane that we call the Fade. GASPARD: The Fade is also where dreams come from. Unless you're a dwarf for some reason. CELENE: If only there were a fully-grown adult around who somehow made it their entire life without learning about any of the basic concepts of our known universe. This conversation would be very educational for them." I think that isn‘t a good way. But we was to much in ferelden and to less in orlais. It would be better when we like in DAO running around and the people tell you what they think about there queen. So we know the thinks they have done.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 14:34:24 GMT
Heck DA2 might've had an instant action start but it possibly had the longest prologue of all the games. The entire first act is basically just saving kittens from trees and meeting characters that will have importance when the real plot begins in acts two and three. DAI is the only game in the series that lacks a proper prologue and its narrative suffers as a result. Do you think that books also suffer when they don't spend extra time at the start explaining everything to you?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 14:41:38 GMT
I think that isn‘t a good way. You don't say.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 14:44:21 GMT
You receive extensive information about them immediately prior to meeting them, and afterwards. The whole mission is information-gathering. I'm genuinely bemused and curious as to what good you think would come of having them "introduced" in a prologue section where (depending on how much free time an individual has), a player might not encounter them again for days or even weeks? How do you imagine that playing out? An opening slideshow of all the major players with accompanying text and narration? "This is Celene, she'll be important later?" Nah I'm more thinking something along the lines of when you get to meet Loghain and the boys at Ostagar. So you wanted Celene and Gaspard to be present at Haven in this hypothetical pre-Breach section of the game where your character gets to run around and personally meet everyone, even when they are a Dalish spy who shouldn't even be there in the first place?
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therevanchist25
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Mar 15, 2017 23:07:06 GMT
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therevanchist25
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by therevanchist25 on Aug 6, 2020 14:53:14 GMT
Heck DA2 might've had an instant action start but it possibly had the longest prologue of all the games. The entire first act is basically just saving kittens from trees and meeting characters that will have importance when the real plot begins in acts two and three. DAI is the only game in the series that lacks a proper prologue and its narrative suffers as a result. Do you think that books also suffer when they don't spend extra time at the start explaining everything to you? Sometimes, yes. I want a book to frontload me with information. I want to know the cultures of each nation, their religious pratices, their history, what language they speak etc. I want to know as much as possible about the setting I'm investing my time into before the story starts. If you don't have enough free time for that investment then find a different setting that caters to your time constraints. I never read the Shannara series for example, because I don't have the endurance to read a 25 novel series or however many it's up to now.
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