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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 14:57:32 GMT
Do you think that books also suffer when they don't spend extra time at the start explaining everything to you? Sometimes, yes. I want a book to frontload me with information. I want to know the cultures of each nation, their religious pratices, their history, what language they speak etc. I want to know as much as possible about the setting I'm investing my time into before the story starts. If you don't have enough free time for that investment then find a different setting that caters to your time constraints. I never read the Shannara series for example, because I don't have the endurance to read a 25 novel series or however many it's up to now. This isn't a question of time constraints. I have shitloads of free time, obviously, because I'm on a forum dedicated to discussion of the output of a single game developer, waging a single-handed crusade against the concept of the "prologue", a narrative device so terrible that whoever birthed it deserves their own private circle in Hell, where they would be forced to listen while I personally read aloud to them every prologue for everything that has ever been written. Including self-published works and fanfiction. There is no book, movie, video game, or other work of fiction that has ever benefitted from the inclusion of a "prologue".
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 14:57:44 GMT
Heck DA2 might've had an instant action start but it possibly had the longest prologue of all the games. The entire first act is basically just saving kittens from trees and meeting characters that will have importance when the real plot begins in acts two and three. DAI is the only game in the series that lacks a proper prologue and its narrative suffers as a result. Do you think that books also suffer when they don't spend extra time at the start explaining everything to you? I like when the characters and settings are fleshed out, yes. Nah I'm more thinking something along the lines of when you get to meet Loghain and the boys at Ostagar. So you wanted Celene and Gaspard to be present at Haven in this hypothetical pre-Breach section of the game where your character gets to run around and personally meet everyone, even when they are a Dalish spy who shouldn't even be there in the first place? I'm guessing they could just adjust a few things.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 15:01:15 GMT
Do you think that books also suffer when they don't spend extra time at the start explaining everything to you? I like when the characters and settings are fleshed out, yes. And that happens in the prologue? You don't even MEET any of your main party in the prologue of Origins. And yeah, okay, sure, the entire dramatic tension of Dragon Age: Inquisition relies on you not knowing how you got there or where your new powers come from, but sure, they can just tack on a section at the start that spoils the entire plot upfront. Easy-peasy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 6, 2020 15:04:49 GMT
So you wanted Celene and Gaspard to be present at Haven in this hypothetical pre-Breach section of the game where your character gets to run around and personally meet everyone, even when they are a Dalish spy who shouldn't even be there in the first place?
Okay, Panda, may be we have side-tracked the question a bit by mentioning Celene and Gaspard in connection with the beginning of the game. However, there could have been a short prologue with you walking around the Conclave, possibly hearing people comment on the civil war in Orlais, or the rather lax security at the venue as they stared rather hard at your Dalish Inquisitor. May be even see the alternative Inquisitors knocking around the place.* Your PC is seen walking down a corridor and then they switch to the view from Haven and boom. It might not seem much but for some of us it just makes you feel more part of the world and then down the line something you heard in passing at the Conclave becomes relevant again, for example the gossip from the Orlesian Court.
It is not just in the beginning either. Walking around Lothering in DAO, I overheard someone saying there was some sort of problem with the Circle. I've got treaties with the mages. Does that mean I ought to go there straight away or should I perhaps leave them until last? It also ought to have impacted on your decision about Connor, if you go to Redcliffe first, except there never was a downside to leaving him on the loose whilst you go to a Circle that is broken and try to fix things.
I may be unusual but a really like to role play my character in an RPG and that includes finding as much out about the world I am meant to be occupying as my PC could reasonably know but it helps if the writers acknowledge this and don't assume I've read all their lore books (which then turn out to be inaccurate anyway)
*That was the interesting thing about DAO in that every origin story still happened but because your PC wasn't in it, the role they would have taken just died. That even had a knock on effect in some cases, so for example when you went to Denerim, if you weren't the city elf Warden or hadn't taken the blame, then Soris was in prison; if you had taken the blame he wasn't.
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 15:05:34 GMT
All that "wander around hometown saving cats from trees" crap should go in the bin and stay there. "Oh mother! Before I go up the mountain behind our house to perform the adulthood ritual for my 18th birthday, I just want to ask you some questions: What's a chantry? What's a mage? What's an elf? Who's Emperor Flippityfloop Kill-Peasants? Why are you on fire? What's an elf again?" So basically you're after a game where you see a character creation screen, make a character, click a 'continue' button.. and BANG! You're immediately flinging spells and combat moves at enemies, and all your character's back story is simply part of a codex? Not really my cup of tea, but each to their own. Besides which what you described above is a series of bland fetch quests, along with a bunch of forced exposition, rather than 'living a normal life'.Living a normal life is where you are part of a village/town/family etc. etc. and you're going about your normal job for a while before the 'big thing' happens. There's no need to be swamped with information about the world, or be forced into "what is the Chantry?"-type dialogue... in fact it's far better if you are not, as for most people, a normal life will not put them into contact with loremaster characters who are stuffed full of knowledge about the history of the world. Better for that kind of exposition to happen organically as the game unfolds.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 15:09:37 GMT
All that "wander around hometown saving cats from trees" crap should go in the bin and stay there. "Oh mother! Before I go up the mountain behind our house to perform the adulthood ritual for my 18th birthday, I just want to ask you some questions: What's a chantry? What's a mage? What's an elf? Who's Emperor Flippityfloop Kill-Peasants? Why are you on fire? What's an elf again?" So basically you're after a game where you see a character creation screen, make a character, click a 'continue' button.. and BANG! You're immediately flinging spells and combat moves at enemies, and all your character's back story is simply part of a codex? Not really my cup of tea, but each to their own. Besides which what you described above is a series of bland fetch quests, along with a bunch of forced exposition, rather than 'living a normal life'. Yeah, because those are the only two places where exposition happens: front-loaded at the start, or in the Codex.  MY character's backstory shouldn't be ANYWHERE, because I should be deciding what their backstory is.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 15:13:09 GMT
I like when the characters and settings are fleshed out, yes. And that happens in the prologue? You don't even MEET any of your main party in the prologue of Origins. The setting does get fleshed out, yes. I also include everything before the battle of Ostagar as the prologue, so you get to meet quite a few characters. You meet Loghain, Alistair, possibly Howe all before the battle. You also get to meet the King which is pretty swell. You can actually put a face to everyone's name before the narrative's even really begun - it's great!
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 15:15:07 GMT
All that "wander around hometown saving cats from trees" crap should go in the bin and stay there. "Oh mother! Before I go up the mountain behind our house to perform the adulthood ritual for my 18th birthday, I just want to ask you some questions: What's a chantry? What's a mage? What's an elf? Who's Emperor Flippityfloop Kill-Peasants? Why are you on fire? What's an elf again?" So basically you're after a game where you see a character creation screen, make a character, click a 'continue' button.. and BANG! You're immediately flinging spells and combat moves at enemies, and all your character's back story is simply part of a codex? Not really my cup of tea, but each to their own. Besides which what you described above is a series of bland fetch quests, along with a bunch of forced exposition, rather than 'living a normal life'.Living a normal life is where you are part of a village/town/family etc. etc. and you're going about your normal job for a while before the 'big thing' happens. There's no need to be swamped with information about the world, or be forced into "what is the Chantry?"-type dialogue... in fact it's far better if you are not, as for most people, a normal life will not put them into contact with loremaster characters who are stuffed full of knowledge about the history of the world. Better for that kind of exposition to happen organically as the game unfolds. Agreed. The way I see it exposition is going to happen one way or another. I'd much rather have the exposition organically presented with a memorable prologue than hastily shoved in while the narratives wheels are at full acceleration.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 15:16:03 GMT
So you wanted Celene and Gaspard to be present at Haven in this hypothetical pre-Breach section of the game where your character gets to run around and personally meet everyone, even when they are a Dalish spy who shouldn't even be there in the first place? Okay, Panda, may be we have side-tracked the question a bit by mentioning Celene and Gaspard in connection with the beginning of the game. However, there could have been a short prologue with you walking around the Conclave, possibly hearing people comment on the civil war in Orlais, or the rather lax security at the venue as they stared rather hard at your Dalish Inquisitor. May be even see the alternative Inquisitors knocking around the place.* Your PC is seen walking down a corridor and then they switch to the view from Haven and boom. It might not seem much but for some of us it just makes you feel more part of the world and then down the line something you heard in passing at the Conclave becomes relevant again, for example the gossip from the Orlesian Court. Oh come on, you know how it would actually go. "Welcome to Haven, dalish spy/qunari mercenary/minor human noble/some dwarf I am Divine Justinia." "What's a Divine?" "You don't know what a Divine is, despite having lived in this setting for 30+ years? Well that's not odd at all, and I just LOVE explaining the fundamental concepts of our society to full-grown adults as if they just popped into existence out of nowhere!" The only, literally the ONLY purpose for those awful "opening sections" of games is to explain basic concepts of the setting and gameplay to new players, and there's nothing a prologue can tell you that can't be delivered much more effectively later. And besides, DAI still has all that boring-ass garbage, immediately after you establish your innocence, the game literally forces you to go around Haven, do introductory fetch quests, get a bunch of background shit infodumped on you, and meet a bunch of people who will shortly cease to matter. You just don't like it because they weren't the literal freakin leaders of the world.
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 15:16:59 GMT
MY character's backstory shouldn't be ANYWHERE, because I should be deciding what their backstory is. For that to happen your character would literally have to be a blank template with no family, no history, no place of birth - an empty vessel awoken from a cloning vat, and all personality traits and personal history allowed to happen from that point onward. But I'd be hard pressed to think of a single videogame, movie, story etc. where that's the case. Most protagonists have at least the rudiments of a back story. Even if it's just "you were born in a small village to a poor family near Tipton". |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 15:17:36 GMT
Besides which what you described above is a series of bland fetch quests, along with a bunch of forced exposition Yeah, a prologue.
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 15:25:11 GMT
But a prologue does not need to be an exposition bot, it can be exactly what it claims to be - a prologue. It could be perfectly possible for a character to complete the prologue and afterward have only the most rudimentary knowledge of the wider world, or even no knowledge of the wider world. Being able to play a brief 'normal' role in the game without being a big spell-flinging/sword-swinging hero helps ground me better within that character. This is obviously not the case for you, and you clearly prefer the 'instant hero/jump straight to the action with no build up' approach but at least grant that others may not necessarily share this view. |
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 15:28:57 GMT
To put it another way. My version of Star Wars would begin with Luke on Tatooine, your version would begin with Luke storming the Death Star to rescue Leia.
Your Lord Of The Rings would likely begin on Weathertop, under attack by the Nazgul...
Can you appreciate that sometimes, having a slower build up, were we're allowed to witness the reasons for the character's path toward the heroic helps make us more invested in that character?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 15:44:35 GMT
But a prologue does not need to be an exposition bot, it can be exactly what it claims to be - a prologue. It could be perfectly possible for a character to complete the prologue and afterward have only the most rudimentary knowledge of the wider world, or even no knowledge of the wider world. Being able to play a brief 'normal' role in the game without being a big spell-flinging/sword-swinging hero helps ground me better within that character. This is obviously not the case for you, and you clearly prefer the 'instant hero/jump straight to the action with no build up' approach but at least grant that others may not necessarily share this view. How is what you just described not an exposition dump? And no just because I don't want to spend 2-6 hours of my free time learning the names of a bunch of people who are all going to die soon does not mean I want to be thrown directly into combat. Technically, what you're describing isn't even a prologue, because the content of a prologue (one that isn't complete garbage, at least), should be connected to the events of the "main story", even if the connection isn't obvious at first. It's only a "prologue" in videogame-land, where literally everything has to be tutorialised for the player as if we were all idiots who never heard of an elf or dwarf before.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 15:50:43 GMT
To put it another way. My version of Star Wars would begin with Luke on Tatooine, your version would begin with Luke storming the Death Star to rescue Leia. Your Lord Of The Rings would likely begin on Weathertop, under attack by the Nazgul... Can you appreciate that sometimes, having a slower build up, were we're allowed to witness the reasons for the character's path toward the heroic helps make us more invested in that character? Star Wars opens with Darth Vader and an army of Stormtroopers boarding Leia's ship, killing her men, and taking her prisoner, and that's before anyone even has a single conversation. What are you talking about? The "storming" of the Death Star (they actually get captured) is the end of the SECOND ACT. No, I would not start Star Wars at the end of the second act. Your version of Star Wars would have the opening text crawl expanded out into a playable section that takes a minimum of two hours to get through. That's what a video game prologue is.
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 15:59:09 GMT
An exposition dump would be just that, a scenario in which massive reams of data about the world you inhabit, it's factions, politics, religions and military order were literally dumped upon you either by an "loremaster" NPC, or some kind of introductory cutscene.
"You are Timothy, you are the youngest son of the Mayor of Tipton. Tipton is at war with the evil empire of Huddersfield, ruled by the nefarious sorcerer Wunkalot, who is actually half demon, and the son of a spiritual entity from another dimension. As a follower of the order of Porkscrakchings, your faith in that diety, who is part of a pantheon of lesser Gods, all ruled by the One Over All Cheesean'On'eon; who's divine efforts are ever thwarted by the order of the Dark Lord Salten'Vinegur..... blah blah blah"
By contrast: "Father, the beans are almost ready" "That's great son, keep them hot, as we're going hunting"
Is not really an exposition dump, save in that it establishes you can cook beans and have a father who likes hunting.
Besides which, who says the people are going to die soon? Who says it doesn't tie into the main story?
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 6, 2020 16:00:54 GMT
This is a bit of depressing topic for me, because I also greatly prefer having a playable backstory. But BW has made their position clear on the matter, and their reasons why, so I have no expectations they'll change from their "instant action starts" going forward.
I've touched on this a few times before, but the Origin stories were a big part of what hooked me onto DA in the first place, and why it remains my favorite of the franchise. I'm just gonna say it - DA2 & DA:I felt weaker for the lack of them.
I wish we could have spent time in Lothering in DA2, getting to know the people before participating in the initial attack, and finally being forced to flee. Just to have that foundation. Same with Inquisition, even if it largely took place at the Temple. Just to have chance to go there with some of your clan, family, carta, etc. (maybe some leave before the fireworks). Again to lay down some foundation before being thrown to the wolves. Dealing with family, clan, etc. through War Table missions... I never cared for it myself.
I'd be happy if we even had a largely common "Origin Story" in DA4, but again I don't expect we'll get that.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 6, 2020 16:02:20 GMT
You set up a false dichotomy from the get-go. You're the one who decided that the only options are to 1) spend a significant amount of time at the start of the game living a "normal life" (whatever the hell that means in a video game world of magic and dragons) or, 2) "be thrown into combat from the first mouse click", which, just speaking purely factually, is not even how Dragon Age Inquisition opens anyway.
Since WHEN does "instant action" mean "wake up in jail and have multiple lengthy conversations before you even so much as touch a weapon"?
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 16:03:16 GMT
Star Wars opens with Darth Vader and an army of Stormtroopers boarding Leia's ship, killing her men, and taking her prisoner, and that's before anyone even has a single conversation. What are you talking about? That's a prologue. It's not the same as living a normal life for a brief time. Even Dragon Age Origins has a prologue, within which Duncan slays a Darkspawn, and there's some brief lore about their supposed origin. But once the prologue ends, we're getting on with 'living a normal life', in relation to whichever origin you happen to choose. |
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 16:07:27 GMT
I wish we could have spent time in Lothering in DA2, getting to know the people before participating in the initial attack, and finally being forced to flee. Just to have that foundation. Same with Inquisition, even if it largely took place at the Temple. Just to have chance to go there with some of your clan, family, carta, etc. (maybe some leave before the fireworks). Again to lay down some foundation before being thrown to the wolves. Dealing with family, clan, etc. through War Table missions... I never cared for it myself. You speak for me also. I'd have given anything to spend some time with Hawke prior to the invasion, helping the villagers as they prepare to evacuate, and then witnessing the attack. As for DA:I, if I'd have been making it, and had been playing my last character, I'd have opened the game within the Dalish camp, where I was eventually summoned to the Keeper and told that I was to play an important role in witnessing the forthcoming conference. |
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 16:14:38 GMT
You set up a false dichotomy from the get-go. You're the one who decided that the only options are to 1) spend a significant amount of time at the start of the game living a "normal life" (whatever the hell that means in a video game world of magic and dragons) or, 2) "be thrown into combat from the first mouse click", which, just speaking purely factually, is not even how Dragon Age Inquisition opens anyway. Since WHEN does "instant action" mean "wake up in jail and have multiple lengthy conversations before you even so much as touch a weapon"?
I asked if you wanted 'instant action' you replied yes - therefore I assumed the above.
Inquisition doesn't have instant action, it's a half-way step featuring a short introduction followed by action. DA:II is a cut scene followed by instant action, though I suppose you could also consider it a prologue.
Living a normal life is just that. It means you're going about your day-to-day duties as you would any other day, irrespective of whether or not the world has magic and dragons. If your normal duties are those of a dragon hunter, fighting a dragon might actually constitute this; if, by contrast you are a wood chopper, you would be chopping wood.
Regardless, this thread is not going in the direction I wanted it to go - it's turning into yet another circular argument between two people with wildly opposing views, and who will never agree, regardless of how long they keep arguing.
I suggest just leaving it there and stopping the argument here and now before it ends up as pages and pages of tireless rebuttal. Agree to disagree in other words.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Aug 6, 2020 16:20:28 GMT
They could have had you walk around the Temple in DAI before the explosion happens, but then you'd know the context of the attack. That would change the first half of the game entirely, and kinda throw the central theme of "Faith" off a cliff.
Personally I don't mind either approach. DAO and DAI introductions set out to accomplish different things.
People who argue that DAO gave you more time to learn about the environment forget that you really don't learn much outside of your immediate location and racial or mage group. That's part of the theme... your origins.
In DAI, the first thing you're exposed to is the Chantry culture. I don't see how that's any different. Rather than focus the RP on what your race is, the RP is whether you accept being a chosen one. The leader of the... inquisition.
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 6, 2020 16:29:15 GMT
DAI would've been great with a prologue.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 6, 2020 16:43:06 GMT
I found DAO is one of te best narratives ever to drop players into a new world. I played almost all of them before committing to aa PT.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by ergates on Aug 6, 2020 18:00:46 GMT
I found DAO is one of te best narratives ever to drop players into a new world. I played almost all of them before committing to aa PT. The only thing I find comparable is the intro to Fallout 3, which sees you actually growing from a child to adult within the vault. Never seen anything like that in any other game. People who argue that DAO gave you more time to learn about the environment forget that you really don't learn much outside of your immediate location and racial or mage group. That's part of the theme... your origins. I actually think that this is the crux point. The purpose of the origin introduction doesn't necessarily need to be a device to teach you about the environment, in fact it's far better if it does not teach you about the wider world, as the wider world ideally needs to be mysterious and unknown in order to maximise that 'wow' factor once you discover it. It's far better purpose is to teach you about the character you play. Who are they? What is their role? How do they react? DA:O keeps things small scale within the origin intros. Your knowledge of the world is limited to your immediate einvironment - the forest, the alienage, the castle, the mage circle, Dust Town, the Diamond Quarter. You know next to nothing about areas outside this small scale environment save for sketchy pieces of lore told through occasional codexes, or snatches of dialogue, and even those can be skipped or missed. This is your world, and within it you have a brief role to play, as the child of a noble placed in charge of a castle, a city elf who's wedding joy has been destroyed by a corrupt noble etc.
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