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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 1, 2020 22:41:56 GMT
In the Dragon Age 4 Hype thread, as discussion started about Approval vs Friendship/Rivalry, and I thought it was interesting enough to be worthy of its own thread. So - do you like Approval (give Morrigan a book so she'll sleep with you), Friendship/Rivalry - Fenris will never leave you, even though you'll want him to? A "dual axis" Friendship/Rivalry + Approval/Disapproval? Or something else (explain in a post)? ------------- I'm intrigued by the idea of a dual axis system - put forward by Hanako Ikezawa, myself. It might get messy to implement, though? It might end up meaning numerous sets of responses having to be coded and - potentially - voiced. Still, if it can be done without massively impacting other game mechanics, I think it might be really great.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 1, 2020 22:43:18 GMT
I would like to have more friendship quests like the ones presented in DAI. It created more interesting interactions with the companions.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 1, 2020 22:44:11 GMT
Changed the poll because I forgot the "none of the above option"!
Sorry.
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Post by lucidae on Sept 1, 2020 22:48:45 GMT
What they did in DAI was perfect. When Dorian called me his best friend for the first time I gushed and almost cried. Loved it.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 1, 2020 22:50:32 GMT
I would like to have more friendship quests like the ones presented in DAI. It created more interesting interactions with the companions. More companion quests should definitely be a thing. And quests that are available changing depending on how they view your actions would be even better! Although, I think programming-wise, that would likely be a bigger nightmare than we can imagine
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 1, 2020 23:12:00 GMT
I do like the idea of having a dual axis of some kind, because it seems like there’s at least 2 different kinds of approval at play. For example, giving someone a gift may not make them like you if they disagree with your actions/views... but it does seem like it might encourage them to stick around. If for no other reason than to whack the “free gifts” tree a couple more times. So there’s a type of approval that’s more transactional, that says “I’m sticking with you out of practicality/to achieve my own ends/because you pay me.” Practicality-approval. And then, if that’s low, maybe the second kind of approval comes into play, “I’m sticking with you because I like you and what you’re doing.” Likability-approval. So, for example, helping someone with a personal quest would raise both kinds of approval. Giving a super meaningful gift might raise both, but gifts would generally raise practicality-approval. Agreeing or disagreeing with their causes would raise/lower likability-approval, as before. But just asking the questions might raise practicality-approval, even if you disagree, because they see an opening to convince you later.
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Post by Heart on Sept 1, 2020 23:14:12 GMT
The companions are my fav part of the series, so I'd love companion quests. I thought it was nice how DA2 companions had a series of quests.
I'd love a two-axis tracking system but I wonder how it would be implemented, and how complicated it could get. Maybe a usual approval/disapproval for basic dialogue but then another counter for larger, story-based choices, if that makes sense? Like, you can be nice to a companion all you want but if you make a big decision that totally goes against their ideals and views they might be colder towards you? I don't know lol.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 1, 2020 23:17:28 GMT
Like, you can be nice to a companion all you want but if you make a big decision that totally goes against their ideals and views they might be colder towards you? I don't know lol. Makes perfect sense. In real life, if people know you've done something totally opposed to their world view, no amount of gifts or other inducements is going to make them like you.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 1, 2020 23:18:20 GMT
I hate the approval system. It’s really appalling. I enjoyed friendship/rivalry immensely. Offered far more as I Could butt heads with some whilst having deep friendships with others. It wasn’t perfect a definite improvement. Unfortunately they went backwards instead. Have no issue with notion of dual axis in principle.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 1, 2020 23:23:40 GMT
The companions are my fav part of the series, so I'd love companion quests. I thought it was nice how DA2 companions had a series of quests. I'd love a two-axis tracking system but I wonder how it would be implemented, and how complicated it could get. Maybe a usual approval/disapproval for basic dialogue but then another counter for larger, story-based choices, if that makes sense? Like, you can be nice to a companion all you want but if you make a big decision that totally goes against their ideals and views they might be colder towards you? I don't know lol. To give an example of what I pictured, let's look at Cassandra. If you have low approval, you get that scene where she hates you. However, when you tell her to leave she says she won't because the work is too important. That would be if someone was far in the rival side of the Friend/Rival scale, but maybe medium in the other scale. She hates you as a person, but she stays because of other factors like stopping Corypheus. However if you do other things that lower the other, then she'd leave because the cure is worse than the disease. Then if you want things like romance, you need to have high approval but depending on the character you might need to be either only in the Friend side or others won't matter but the scene will change. To use DA2 as an example, like how the Fenris sex scene can either start by being sweet if friendly or by being an argument that turns into a angry makeout session if a rival.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 1, 2020 23:33:36 GMT
There's no Friendship "system" that can accurately emulate how friendship really works, so I'm not particularly invested.
Rather than have any sort of points system, I think companions should just react realistically to each individual situation.
If a companions says "Hey, I don’t like it when people hurt kids", and I then go on to kill a bunch of kids, that character should leave immediately or even attempt to kill me. It shouldn't merely result in a loss of points that I can make up by giving them chocolates or whatever.
Of course, not every situation should result in companions abandoning me. In fact, those should be rare. And I'm still fine with characters abandoning me due to an aggregate of decisions that they didn't like, but it shouldn't be because of a point system (at least not one that I can see), it should be a logical consequence of my actions.
And don't give a stupid little "Bob disapproves" message. If Bob really has a problem, he can tell me himself.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 1, 2020 23:36:17 GMT
I think all the systems are flawed in some ways.
Saying that, I really like how greetings/interactions changes based on the relationship spectrum.
The part that fails are: - how easy it is to gain points (or lose them in some cases). DAI was just ridiculous, you could -100 and +100 certain characters in the same play-through. That actually makes the companions very shallow. - how the meter determine character behavior in certain clinching moments instead of their own belief/personality, there was some in the previous games but not enough. Although, going by Patrick previous work he's a fan of these. - the rival part of the friendship/rival meter was just "friend with a chip on my shoulder" mechanically, not a proper rival. Maybe it shouldn't have been called rival...
I think they should keep the approval/disapproval or friendship/frenemy meters whatever that one is called to change the greetings/interactions and open romance paths. They should hardcode clinching moment behaviors based on the companions personality/belief, no need for a meter there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 1, 2020 23:36:38 GMT
There's no Friendship "system" that can accurately emulate how friendship really works, so I'm not particularly invested. Rather than have any sort of points system, I think companions should just react realistically to each individual situation. If a companions says "Hey, I don’t like it when people hurt kids", and I then go on to kill a bunch of kids, that character should leave immediately or even attempt to kill me. It shouldn't merely result in a loss of points that I can make up by giving them chocolates or whatever. Of course, not every situation should result in companions abandoning me. In fact, those should be rare. And I'm still fine with characters abandoning me due to an aggregate of decisions that they didn't like, but it shouldn't be because of a point system (at least not one that I can see), it should be a logical consequence of my actions. And don't give a stupid little "Bob disapproves" message. If Bob really has a problem, he can tell me himself. I do disagree that if the protagonist does something so totally against what they stand for, they should leave immediately regardless of previous approval. Though they've done this before, with Alistair quitting if Loghain is recruited or Sebastian leaving if Anders is spared even if you had top approval and in a romance with them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2020 23:47:15 GMT
I really like the idea of a "double axis" combining the Friendship/Rivalry system from DA2 with the approval/disapproval systems from DAO and DAI (props to whoever came up with that notion).
The Friendship/Rivalry system was interesting because it was sort of novel, but it felt a little bit odd that companions could never dislike you, even if they were "rivals". Adding an additional parameter to the Friendship/Rivalry system seems like it would solve this, and make relationships more complex and realistic.
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Post by gum on Sept 1, 2020 23:57:52 GMT
I just think that if a companion DOES leave me over extreme disagreements, that'd it be very sexy if there was a questline where they vowed to be my rival and set out to kill me or sabotage my efforts or at least show up again to yell at me several times instead of disappearing forever.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 2, 2020 0:01:29 GMT
that'd it be very sexy if there was a questline where they vowed to be my rival Dragon Age players are all about the sexy. at least show up again to yell at me several times instead of disappearing forever. Zoidberg Greatly Approves
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2020 0:18:35 GMT
There's no Friendship "system" that can accurately emulate how friendship really works, so I'm not particularly invested. Rather than have any sort of points system, I think companions should just react realistically to each individual situation. If a companions says "Hey, I don’t like it when people hurt kids", and I then go on to kill a bunch of kids, that character should leave immediately or even attempt to kill me. It shouldn't merely result in a loss of points that I can make up by giving them chocolates or whatever. Of course, not every situation should result in companions abandoning me. In fact, those should be rare. And I'm still fine with characters abandoning me due to an aggregate of decisions that they didn't like, but it shouldn't be because of a point system (at least not one that I can see), it should be a logical consequence of my actions. And don't give a stupid little "Bob disapproves" message. If Bob really has a problem, he can tell me himself. I do disagree that if the protagonist does something so totally against what they stand for, they should leave immediately regardless of previous approval. Though they've done this before, with Alistair quitting if Loghain is recruited or Sebastian leaving if Anders is spared even if you had top approval and in a romance with them. I don't think there should BE 'previous approval' in the first place. There shouldn't be a score. Not if they're trying to emulate real relationships, anyway. Real relationships don't use points-based systems. There should only be choices, and companions responding realistically to those choices.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 2, 2020 0:33:28 GMT
I do disagree that if the protagonist does something so totally against what they stand for, they should leave immediately regardless of previous approval. Though they've done this before, with Alistair quitting if Loghain is recruited or Sebastian leaving if Anders is spared even if you had top approval and in a romance with them. I don't think there should BE 'previous approval' in the first place. There shouldn't be a score. Not if they're trying to emulate real relationships, anyway. Real relationships don't use points-based systems. There should only be choices, and companions responding realistically to those choices. A relationship doesn't reset after each interaction, though. If I'm friends with someone and they start doing small things that irritate me or that I think are wrong, it will start to wear. Over time, those missteps by the friend will reach a point where the enjoyment I get from the 'good' interactions I have with them will be outweighed by the discomfort or irritation/anger I experience from the 'bad' ones. I get that "some" people don't keep an excel spreadsheet with all of their friends triumphs and failures of character and there is way more at play than just "I liked this and didn't like that", but friendship does exist on a continuum. And if there are to be relationships that can change in a game, they need some way of tracking it and allowing for movement along that spectrum.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2020 0:39:23 GMT
I don't think there should BE 'previous approval' in the first place. There shouldn't be a score. Not if they're trying to emulate real relationships, anyway. Real relationships don't use points-based systems. There should only be choices, and companions responding realistically to those choices. A relationship doesn't reset after each interaction, though. If I'm friends with someone and they start doing small things that irritate me or that I think are wrong, it will start to wear. Over time, those missteps by the friend will reach a point where the enjoyment I get from the 'good' interactions I have with them will be outweighed by the discomfort or irritation/anger I experience from the 'bad' ones. I get that "some" people don't keep an excel spreadsheet with all of their friends triumphs and failures of character and there is way more at play than just "I liked this and didn't like that", but friendship does exist on a continuum. And if there are to be relationships that can change in a game, they need some way of tracking it and allowing for movement along that spectrum. Your friends also probably never sacrificed a group of kidnapped elves to get an extra point in Constitution. The decisions we make in DA games are simply not on par with, say, sneaking a few fries from your plate when you're eating out. And the party members in DA games aren't close friends who have a long history with me. They literally just met me.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 2, 2020 0:47:12 GMT
A relationship doesn't reset after each interaction, though. If I'm friends with someone and they start doing small things that irritate me or that I think are wrong, it will start to wear. Over time, those missteps by the friend will reach a point where the enjoyment I get from the 'good' interactions I have with them will be outweighed by the discomfort or irritation/anger I experience from the 'bad' ones. I get that "some" people don't keep an excel spreadsheet with all of their friends triumphs and failures of character and there is way more at play than just "I liked this and didn't like that", but friendship does exist on a continuum. And if there are to be relationships that can change in a game, they need some way of tracking it and allowing for movement along that spectrum. Your friends also probably never sacrificed a group of kidnapped elves to get an extra point in Constitution. The decisions we make in DA games are simply not on par with, say, sneaking a few fries from your plate when you're eating out. And the party members in DA games aren't close friends who have a long history with me. They literally just met me. For sure - the elf scenario would definitely be an "I'm out" moment. But not every situation will - or should - be. Siding with the Templars over the Mages? Could be, depending on how strongly a character felt about it. But choosing to imprison the Mayor of Crestwood when the companion thought he should be executed, as an example, might only result in a grumbled "deserved worse, but this is something, I guess" and it becomes one small step down a road that could lead to the end of the friendship. Or not, if I make future decisions the companion likes.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 2, 2020 1:02:16 GMT
Your friends also probably never sacrificed a group of kidnapped elves to get an extra point in Constitution. The decisions we make in DA games are simply not on par with, say, sneaking a few fries from your plate when you're eating out. And the party members in DA games aren't close friends who have a long history with me. They literally just met me. For sure - the elf scenario would definitely be an "I'm out" moment. But not every situation will - or should - be. Siding with the Templars over the Mages? Could be, depending on how strongly a character felt about it. But choosing to imprison the Mayor of Crestwood when the companion thought he should be executed, as an example, might only result in a grumbled "deserved worse, but this is something, I guess" and it becomes one small step down a road that could lead to the end of the friendship. Or not, if I make future decisions the companion likes. Well, as I said, these decisions should be rare. I am also fine with companions leaving due to multiple decisions, but it shouldn't be measured in points. Like, say, maybe each companion has three "flags" that represent the three big choices they don't like. If I trip all three flags, they should say "I'm leaving and here's why", and it should *not* be something that can be undone or avoided because I fed them candy to boost their Friendship EXP. I would, however, accept a circumstance where completing their personal quests or being in a romance with them might mitigate the damage of tripping all three flags. Nothing BioWare can do will match the complexity of a real relationship, but having "points", or having little pop-up messages that "X Greatly Disapproves" (when X never mentions it later and may not even have been present) exposes the artifice, and there's no reason to do that when they could have the character confront us directly instead.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 2, 2020 1:51:02 GMT
Assuming they don't get the route of 'full realism' and they just leave it up to you figuring out whether your companions like you via akward social ques, what they say, tone of voice, and facial expressions...
I think the DAI system was pretty much spot on actually. It still kept track but I didn't feel the worry about going into their point system to see if they 'liked' me or not. I could be more 'myself' and focus on role playing.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 2, 2020 2:20:43 GMT
The problem with rivarly is it was supposed to represent you and your companion agreeing to disagree but them still respecting you/liking you - but they have you gaining rivalry points not just when your character said/did things that disagreed with a companions opinions but also when you were just cruel, mean, or evil. Stuff that should have made them dislike you. So it didn't really make sense.
Disapproval also conflates 'i disagree with that' with 'I didn't like that you shit'
Something like a dual axis of Loyalty and Affection might be nice. Loyalty going up our down based on whether or actions and statements match up with what the companion believes and Affection going up and down based on how you treat the companion personally.
So the equivalent of what Rivalry was supposed to be would be Low Loyalty/High Affection.
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Post by gum on Sept 2, 2020 2:28:03 GMT
I think part of the popularity around Bioware's social aspect is that, depending on your relationship meter with any given characters, your interactions shift slightly. You can have slightly different reactions to ordinary things like a greeting or multiple ways to go into or leave a relationship and then have party members talk about previous relationships.
I get that a points system sounds very mechanical, but I do think it's necessary to create those variations that fans have come to love. Otherwise, interactions become even more scripted, and there isn't much room for unexpected encounters. I think the idea that there's 2 different axes for a relationship meter is a good idea to make it feel a little bit more organic and surprising, though it'll never be perfect or able to account for every possibility. While DAI's system alone left me behaving in very approval seeking ways, the added reactions and character scenes/questlines was a good progression and while DA2 had a lot of wonky, inexplicable moments with how rigid rivalry and friendship could be, it gave me new and unique ways to interact with my party. If the best of both can be combined, I think that would do a lot for setting Bioware's social mechanics beyond everyone else's.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Sept 2, 2020 2:47:49 GMT
I want to track all the variables of what they (companions) think about my actions/responses. By doing so, i want one of these graphs...
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