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Post by biggydx on Sept 9, 2020 14:40:27 GMT
For the uninitiated, Barrier and Guard where two notable gameplay mechanics introduced with Dragon Age: Inquisition. Both served to essentially act as additional health pools, but in different ways. Barrier was primarily an active ability you used that would grant a strong shield bonus to your health bar. Barrier hit points would slowly decrease over time, until the Barrier eventually dissipated. Some passives would also also generate Barrier for you. Guard worked in a similar manner, with it primarily being added by way of an ability (like Walking Fortress). It could also be gained through passives, or masterwork items for your gear. As opposed to Barrier, Guard would remain with you indefinitely, though the total number of hit points it provided was not as strong as Barrier.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 15:46:09 GMT
I vote neither, and this is the reason why: Both served to essentially act as additional health pools ... which strikes me as a cheap way to turn enemies into (the DA equivalent of) bullet sponges. Dragging it out does not make combat more fun, just more tedious. Worse yet is that even though you can create custom weapons that provide bonuses to whittling down guard, you cannot change weapons mid-battle. DAI's dragon designs were beautiful and varied, but their ability to regenerate full guard made the battles an un-fun slogfest.
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Post by Gilli on Sept 9, 2020 15:55:57 GMT
I say bring both back, cause they were really useful. I hate using potions (when you only get a handful for the whole group ), so just losing guard/barrier instead was nice(r).
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 9, 2020 16:06:55 GMT
It's basically shields over health and armour over health. Player has more or less control to generate either. I found it a good and viable way to incorporate it into action-rpg.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 16:39:31 GMT
I say bring both back, cause they were really useful. I hate using potions (when you only get a handful for the whole group ), so just losing guard/barrier instead was nice(r). You realize the reason why the potions were so limited is because they gave you guard and barrier to prevent damage instead, right? The guard/barrier implementation is also the justification for removing healing magic from mages.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 16:45:04 GMT
It's basically shields over health and armour over health. Player has more or less control to generate either. I found it a good and viable way to incorporate it into action-rpg. Indeed, it is similar to shields and armour in ME, however - ME combatants could switch weapons in accordance to which layer they were working on. Also, ME has a pretty well-established general formula for which weapon type works best on which layer. Neither of those things were true for DAI. ETA: MET also has ammo types that can be changed on the fly that make it much easier to strip those layers. Again, DAI offered no such thing.
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Post by Gilli on Sept 9, 2020 16:50:40 GMT
I say bring both back, cause they were really useful. I hate using potions (when you only get a handful for the whole group ), so just losing guard/barrier instead was nice(r). You realize the reason why the potions were so limited is because they gave you guard and barrier to prevent damage instead, right? The guard/barrier implementation is also the justification for removing healing magic from mages. There are materials that give you Heal on Kill, so you still have "Healing", just no healing others, only yourself. The positive thing about that, you're not forced to bring a mage, if you want to do something with a full Rogue, or full Warrior party.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 9, 2020 16:50:56 GMT
I vote neither, and this is the reason why: Both served to essentially act as additional health pools ... which strikes me as a cheap way to turn enemies into (the DA equivalent of) bullet sponges. Dragging it out does not make combat more fun, just more tedious. Worse yet is that even though you can create custom weapons that provide bonuses to whittling down guard, you cannot change weapons mid-battle. DAI's dragon designs were beautiful and varied, but their ability to regenerate full guard made the battles an un-fun slogfest. Huh? Unless the Inquisitor is soloing, dragons don’t get many chances to raise their guard. Even on Nightmare, a full party will absolutely demolish them. I mean, maybe if the party is playing really tanky it’ll have problems. But that’s the whole idea of playing tanky, the fights are supposed to last a lot longer.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 16:59:56 GMT
I vote neither, and this is the reason why: ... which strikes me as a cheap way to turn enemies into (the DA equivalent of) bullet sponges. Dragging it out does not make combat more fun, just more tedious. Worse yet is that even though you can create custom weapons that provide bonuses to whittling down guard, you cannot change weapons mid-battle. DAI's dragon designs were beautiful and varied, but their ability to regenerate full guard made the battles an un-fun slogfest. Huh? Unless the Inquisitor is soloing, dragons don’t get many chances to raise their guard. Even on Nightmare, a full party will absolutely demolish them. I mean, maybe if the party is playing really tanky it’ll have problems. But that’s the whole idea of playing tanky, the fights are supposed to last a lot longer. I think I was pretty clear in my comments. What is it you don't understand? On multiple occasions, I'd whittle the dragon down to only a sliver of health just before it re-generated full guard. And the size and terrain of the battlefields made it really difficult for me to find fallen companions to resuscitate them. So I did spend a fair amount of those battles with a less than full crew.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 17:20:55 GMT
You realize the reason why the potions were so limited is because they gave you guard and barrier to prevent damage instead, right? The guard/barrier implementation is also the justification for removing healing magic from mages. There are materials that give you Heal on Kill, so you still have "Healing", just no healing others, only yourself. The positive thing about that, you're not forced to bring a mage, if you want to do something with a full Rogue, or full Warrior party. And I found DAI to be even more insistent on party balance than previous titles in the franchise. There are quite a few places where you need a specific skill from a specific class to proceed.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 9, 2020 17:32:03 GMT
Huh? Unless the Inquisitor is soloing, dragons don’t get many chances to raise their guard. Even on Nightmare, a full party will absolutely demolish them. I mean, maybe if the party is playing really tanky it’ll have problems. But that’s the whole idea of playing tanky, the fights are supposed to last a lot longer. I think I was pretty clear in my comments. What is it you don't understand? On multiple occasions, I'd whittle the dragon down to only a sliver of health just before it re-generated full guard. And the size and terrain of the battlefields made it really difficult for me to find fallen companions to resuscitate them. So I did spend a fair amount of those battles with a less than full crew. I’m saying that only happens with specific party comps, ones that are heavily, heavily focused on defense rather than offense. Game designers know that we’re afraid of dying, so they can get away with making defensive abilities/potions/armors absolute garbage and we’ll still take them. Knowing our natural response to dying is to play even more defensively, even as it continues to make combat harder instead of easier. Non-tanky parties do not run into that situation, where the fights last for ages and they constantly need revival. The dragon is already dead. The party doesn’t even need to do twice as much damage to halve the length of fights, because shaving off one or two guards dramatically reduces the dragon’s overall HP — and dramatically reduces the damage the party takes.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 9, 2020 17:39:45 GMT
Unfortunately I havent played Warrior since my first DAI PT, I cannot remember is it the same as in DAIMP: Health can be depleted under barrier and armor and there is no gating mechanism? Really needs a gating mechanism there. Really. EDIT: Also now that I think I really dislike those "last two bits of shield/health/etc" - been thinking could there be a bleeding effect triggered near 5% of health or such. Enemies should limp/wither a bit during the last bits of health and die automatically... of course this is a balancing act too.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 9, 2020 17:55:59 GMT
I say bring both back, cause they were really useful. I hate using potions (when you only get a handful for the whole group ), so just losing guard/barrier instead was nice(r). You realize the reason why the potions were so limited is because they gave you guard and barrier to prevent damage instead, right? The guard/barrier implementation is also the justification for removing healing magic from mages. It was. But the reason they felt they had to change something was that under the system as it existed in DA:O, the party having as much access to healing as it did meant that Bioware couldn't adequately plan for how many HP the bosses needed to be able to deplete. The only way they could think of to put party members in actual danger of going down no matter how much access to healing they had (without making it impossible to play the game if you had less than that) was to give the enemies completely ridiculous moves that instantly take a huge amount of health, while paralyzing the target to prevent them from using a potion. Like the Overwhelm move from Origins that enemies in Awakening loved spamming. I read Bioware's explanation of that while I was in the middle of my third or fourth (or somethingth?) playthrough of Awakening. And I gotta say, it struck a cord with me. Maybe there's a third option, but unless there is, I'll take dragons that can generate guard over dragons that can use Overwhelm.
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 9, 2020 17:56:05 GMT
Oh no. No to both. Jeez. Barrier spam was the replacement for healing magic which made mages just as required to mitigate health damage as they had been with their healing spells in previous DA titles, except that barrier required you to cast it proactively instead of as a reaction to damage sustained. If you ever need a good explanation for the German word "verschlimmbessern", this one is it.
As far as Guard goes, I don't even know what that extra bar is supposed to represent in the game world. A temporary Iron Skin "spell"? A "vigilance meter" that depletes and assumes that the warrior parries all incoming attacks with faster than light speed (and therefore not visible to the human eye) until said vigilance runs out?
This is a setting where magic is considered very special, so the defensive skills of warriors and rogues should be mundane, like an activated passive skill that makes automatic parries, causing the fighter to lose stamina instead of hitpoints, and running out when stamina is depleted or some such.
I guess Barrier can stay as long as we get the choice to use the good old healing magic instead. But I don't want it to remain as healing magic's replacement.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 18:21:54 GMT
Game designers know that we’re afraid of dying, so they can get away with making defensive abilities/potions/armors absolute garbage and we’ll still take them. Knowing our natural response to dying is to play even more defensively, even as it continues to make combat harder instead of easier. Uh-huh. *nods* And... ? My first (and only complete) PT was a Qunari warrior, a tank. When my followers fell, I spent way too much time looking for them to revive them as they tended to blend into the terrain... but of course whether or not I took the time to locate and revive them, the dragon would re-gen FULL FUCKING GUARD, even when it had but a sliver of health left. An enemy should not be able to re-generate FULL FUCKING GUARD when it is that close to death. And it should not be that damned difficult to find fallen companions. I spent most of my last DAI dragon battle frequently pausing to move Varric out from under the dragon's belly. I've no idea how or why he kept ending up there - in DAO and DA2, I had only to set combat behavior to ranged, and the companions would keep themselves at range. As a previous poster mentioned, guard and barrier are similar to MET's shields and armor, but there's a huge distinction: MET gave us the ability to swap weapons and ammo types to optimally strip those layers; DAI failed to provide any such capability. Also, MET's armour doesn't regenerate. If you like the guard and/or barrier mechanics, you are free to vote for their retention. I prefer they die in a fire.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Sept 9, 2020 18:24:36 GMT
These mechanics made DAI combat boring and monotonous for me, so I would say "no" please don't bring them back. Healing magic can come back too along with scrapping the healing potion limit. If someone wants a million healing potions, let them, I say (Kotor did this).
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Post by biggydx on Sept 9, 2020 18:28:57 GMT
Oh no. No to both. Jeez. Barrier spam was the replacement for healing magic which made mages just as required to mitigate health damage as they had been with their healing spells in previous DA titles, except that barrier required you to cast it proactively instead of as a reaction to damage sustained. If you ever need a good explanation for the German word "verschlimmbessern", this one is it. As far as Guard goes, I don't even know what that extra bar is supposed to represent in the game world. A temporary Iron Skin "spell"? A "vigilance meter" that depletes and assumes that the warrior parries all incoming attacks with faster than light speed (and therefore not visible to the human eye) until said vigilance runs out? This is a setting where magic is considered very special, so the defensive skills of warriors and rogues should be mundane, like an activated passive skill that makes automatic parries, causing the fighter to lose stamina instead of hitpoints, and running out when stamina is depleted or some such. I guess Barrier can stay as long as we get the choice to use the good old healing magic instead. But I don't want it to remain as healing magic's replacement. I can see Rogues having a means to Parry/Dodge attacks at the cost of stamina. DA multiplayer had Isabella in it, and she had this interesting intrinsic ability where using certain abilities gave her stacks of "Elusive". Each Elusive stack allowed you to bypass damage from a single attack. This was balanced by the fact that she couldn't use evasive abilities. There wasnt really an animation for it though, so there wasnt any feedback. Maybe Warriors could do well with having a higher chance to stagger opponents, or not being staggered themselves? Maybe even have passives that give them a chance to regenerate a portion of the health they loss (but never the full amount). Kind of like a second wind or preserving through the pain.
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 18:42:59 GMT
You realize the reason why the potions were so limited is because they gave you guard and barrier to prevent damage instead, right? The guard/barrier implementation is also the justification for removing healing magic from mages. It was. But the reason they felt they had to change something was that under the system as it existed in DA:O, the party having as much access to healing as it did meant that Bioware couldn't adequately plan for how many HP the bosses needed to be able to deplete. The only way they could think of to put party members in actual danger of going down no matter how much access to healing they had (without making it impossible to play the game if you had less than that) was to give the enemies completely ridiculous moves that instantly take a huge amount of health, while paralyzing the target to prevent them from using a potion. Like the Overwhelm move from Origins that enemies in Awakening loved spamming. I read Bioware's explanation of that while I was in the middle of my third or fourth (or somethingth?) playthrough of Awakening. And I gotta say, it struck a cord with me. Maybe there's a third option, but unless there is, I'll take dragons that can generate guard over dragons that can use Overwhelm. That's really an artifact of devs taking on the responsibility of managing combat difficulty and trying to keep the experience consistent across different parties and builds. Ever since they started doing that, we've had bears that are almost as hard for a max-level, max-equipped party to kill as they were at L1. I don't really regard that as a good thing. I'd agree about overwhelm. 'Twas my nemesis, and there was no way to counter it. Any source of healing (potions, magic, other gear) can carry limitations - random factors and/or cooldowns to limit their effect. But honestly, if players prefer to invest in healing over raw DPS, should the game not allow them to do so? This, combined with CCC and class-specific (even element-specific) barriers have really encroached on player agency and the ability to enjoy different types of builds and party compositions. I don't regard that as a step in the right direction. Not to mention - healing has always been a major component of mage lore in Thedas, and I think it's removal is a darned shame.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 9, 2020 18:57:18 GMT
I can see Rogues having a means to Parry/Dodge attacks at the cost of stamina. DA multiplayer had Isabella in it, and she had this interesting intrinsic ability where using certain abilities gave her stacks of "Elusive". Each Elusive stack allowed you to bypass damage from a single attack. This was balanced by the fact that she couldn't use evasive abilities. There wasnt really an animation for it though, so there wasnt any feedback.I have played her couple weeks ago, and there is feedback, but it is a bit ... shady. I think it uses the same effect of blue something around you as one would use the Fallback Plan ability. So when enemy hits, coin is used and that flashes really fast.
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Post by biggydx on Sept 9, 2020 19:00:23 GMT
I can see Rogues having a means to Parry/Dodge attacks at the cost of stamina. DA multiplayer had Isabella in it, and she had this interesting intrinsic ability where using certain abilities gave her stacks of "Elusive". Each Elusive stack allowed you to bypass damage from a single attack. This was balanced by the fact that she couldn't use evasive abilities. There wasnt really an animation for it though, so there wasnt any feedback.I have played her couple weeks ago, and there is feedback, but it is a bit ... shady. I think it uses the same effect of blue something around you as one would use the Fallback Plan ability. So when enemy hits, coin is used and that flashes really fast. I was thinking along the lines of animated feedback. I do remember the coin going away though. Forgot about the blue/white flashing effect when it was used.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 9, 2020 19:07:23 GMT
I vote to bring both back. Better than being more or less forced to have a healing mage in your party. At least DAI have us a choice between warrior or mage damage absorbers. But if all three are in the same game that may pose a balance problem. Heck, some OP barrier and guard builds are possible in DAI (especially for knight enchanters and champions).
That being said, I won't mind at all if healing spells, potions, guards and barriers are available in the next game. But if they chose to replace guard with armor passives and add in some sort of rogue 'parry' skill at the expense of stamina, I would be ok with that too.
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Post by Heart on Sept 9, 2020 19:12:46 GMT
I preferred healing magic to barriers, personally. Just my own play style preferences, since I'm brainless and it's easier for me to react to low health with a healing spell than it is for me to remember to cast barrier at the start of every fight, and keep putting it up Guard I don't mind as much since I didn't care to play as a warrior in DAI anyway, so I just let my party members do their own thing. I'm not going to be devastated if barrier and guard return or anything, but I'd prefer the return of healing spells and specializations (especially if DA4 has party members comment on specializations again).
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Post by colfoley on Sept 9, 2020 19:36:28 GMT
Given that I think active blocking should be in there, what guard was supposed to ape, I think only barrier should return.
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Post by samurailink on Sept 9, 2020 19:37:56 GMT
I liked healing magic but if people had issues with that I'd be quite content for all healing to be done by potions. DAI had a lot of fights in my first run where everyone went down but Blackwall, who would abuse Guard to be effectively immortal. I think the game that had this cockroach method of fights the least was DA2 where potions had a cooldown.
Another option I'd like to see them tackle would be to keep the 8 healing potion slots but thats it. Then if we want mages who focus on keeping health up you could use damage reducing spells where damage was still being done, just less. That might be the best solution to end drawn out combat. Anything to move the focus of combat from damage sponging seems like a good move, and some enemies in Inquisition were horrendous for this on higher difficulties.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 9, 2020 20:04:44 GMT
My first (and only complete) PT was a Qunari warrior, a tank. When my followers fell, I spent way too much time looking for them to revive them as they tended to blend into the terrain... but of course whether or not I took the time to locate and revive them, the dragon would re-gen FULL FUCKING GUARD, even when it had but a sliver of health left. An enemy should not be able to re-generate FULL FUCKING GUARD when it is that close to death. And that guard disappears almost instantly if the party does even moderate damage. Plus, it’s typically on a cooldown, so faster kills mean fewer opportunities for the dragon to raise guard. The massively inflated time, with the dragon spamming guard over and over, is something that only happens for incredibly tanky party comps. Add a little more DPS and the time will shrink dramatically. Not only will the party kill the dragon faster, but the faster kill will cut off some of the dragon’s attempts to raise guard, which will further shorten the fight. That also means much fewer wing attacks, breath attacks, and other high damage AoE to dodge. The whole party will live, rather than one tank running around trying to raise people.
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